Another Bit On Turkey and Islam

Discussion in 'Middle East - General' started by Annie, Nov 27, 2006.

  1. Annie
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    Annie Diamond Member

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    Rarely is Islam in a hurry to convert, since the coffers are filled by the taxes of the infidels. Over time though, after those that can seek refuge elsewhere and the weak that are left behind, escape taxes by conversion, the country becomes truly Islamic, long after it's considered so:

    http://www.popeandpatriarch.com/?q=node/75

     
  2. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Nice source Kathianne, really objective.
    There is no doubt, that behind this source are Greeks.

    Now to the facts:

    1.Greece and Turkey had an civilian exchange programm in beginning of last century.
    Except Turks of Greece in Thrace and Turkish Greeks on Westcoast of Turkey there was a mutual exchange.
    So i do not get the point of claiming, that for example in Pontus (Black Sea) there are no Greeks left. It is the same when i claim why there are no Turks even more in Thesaloniki or Piräus or Athens.
    Because there was a population exchange except Westcoast of Turkey and Thrace of Greece.

    2. The 1955 progroms in Istanbul were really tragic, but an answer to Greeks in Greece which set the house in which Ataturk was born in Thessaloniki in fire. That house was and still is a Museum in Thesaloniki / Greece.

    3. The disappropriate of Greek churches has to been viewed parallel to what Greece is doing in Thrace to Turkish minority. In Lausanne Treaty both Turkey and Greece agreed to give Greeks of Istanbul and Turks of Thrace special rights.
    Both countries because of political problems with each other do not meet the rights according to the Lausanne Treaty.
    Greek Christians as well as Turkish Thraceans are tolls of diplomacy which both countries use.

    Human Rights Watch:
    Destroying ethnic identity - The Turks of Greece
    http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/greece/greece908.pdf

    Of course your Greek source does not mention these. And it also mentions not that Turks of Thrace are not allowed to choose their Muslim religious authority itself or educate their children in Turkish as it is stated in Lausanne treaty.
    When Miltary Junta became government in Greece the Regime practiced to choose all Functionaries of Foundations by Military Government.
    In 1974 when Military Junta was overthrown all foundations could choose their Leaders again.
    Except Turkish Foundations. For 38 years this is still valid.
    The Money and funds of Thracean Foundations were so confiscated by Greece as Greece appoints Leaders to Turkish foundations. Foundations which operate money, schools, cultural activity of Turkish minority.
    Turkish minoritiy in Thrace is forbidden to build new mosques there. Renovation of existing mosques is also forbidden.
    Even postal service is not made to Turkish houses but made in blue collecting points.

    http://www.thenewanatolian.com/opinion-1183.html


    Greeks and Orthodox Patriarchate in Turkey are no Christianity-Turkey issue, but a Greece-Turkey issue. So make no propaganda of it and look to the whole picture.
     
  3. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Human rights watch

    Destroying Ethnic Identity - The Turks of Thrace
    http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/greece/greece908.pdf


    Turkey appoints all Patriachs. This is handled so since Fatih Sultan Mehmet II. The Conqueror.
    Before modern-day Turkey existed Patriarch was allowed to teach its own priests in Kalki (Istanbul Island).
    But Turkey is secular and Turkish state controls Religion.

    We offer Patriach to establish a Orthodox priest seminary in Istanbul University.
    There would be established a Orthodox Theological Faculity in Turkish State run University.
    If Patriarch wants to exist in future Patriarch must follow this proposal, as Turkey will not allow Patriarch itself to teach its priests.
    Those priests of one of them Turkey chooses the next Patriarch.

    If Patriarch wants to teach its own priests, then this would be a special right which for example Muslims in Turkey do not have.
    If Patriarch teaches its own priests, then maybe some Muslims in Turkey want to teach their own Imams, too.
    So this would be uncontrollable for Turkey and might open way for radicalism as Imams would not be anymore state-officials and could be influenced and financed by radical Islamic states such as Saudi-Arabia.
    Today all of 80.000 mosques are State-owned mosques with personal that are state-officials and taught by Turkish state.

    To continue this way Patriarch must let its priests taught by Orthodox faculty to be established in state-run Istanbul university.
    If Patriach still does not accept this proposal, Patriarchate will die out in 1-2 generations as there are no priests Turkey can appoint to successor Bartholomeus.
     
  4. Rico
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    Rico Member

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    Seems to me the Turks ought to get out of Greece and the Greeks have already been kicked out of Turkey. Turkey's on the verge of going over to an Islamic state. Should that occur they should promptly be booted out of NATO with a firm quick kick to the ass. Sorry Canavar but I've had my gutfull of Islam and it's inability to get along with any other culture. This American thinks it's time to talk turkey with Turkey (American colloquillism, you wouldn't understand). The US needs to talk straight with the Turks. We won't/can't continue a military alliance with Turkey if it is an Islamic state, period.
     
  5. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Please show us Islamic-motivated laws which went through parliament the last years.
    Let us talk on base of facts and not talk turkey with Turkey :bye1:
     
  6. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Turkish parliament passes minority foundations property law

    http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/09/europe/EU_GEN_Turkey_Minority_Foundations.php


    The law would allow foundations to reacquire confiscated properties, but it was not clear if they would be allowed to reclaim property that has since been sold to other people.

    It also allows foundation to reclaim properties registered under the names of saints. A committee will be established to decide which properties should be returned. President Ahmet Necdet Sezer must approve the reform before it takes effect.

    Turkey's reluctance to concede to demands of non-Muslim minorities stems from a deep mistrust many here feel toward Greece, Turkey's historical regional rival.

    Turkey seized some properties owned by minority foundations in 1974 following years of ethnic clashes in Cyprus which led to the invasion of the island by Turkey following an abortive coup by supporters of union with Greece the same year.

    At the time, a Turkish court ruled that the foundations had no right to acquire property that they had not declared in 1936 when they were asked to specify their sources of income.
     
  7. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Non-Muslim places of worship to be repaired
    http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=39088

    Churches, synagogue to be renovated
    http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=39132

    Modern Turkey's first new church opens in Istanbul
    http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=53125

    Restoration of historic church
    http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=20444

    Actually the pope collected plus points and sympathy on the first day of his visit.
    When Pope Benedict was Cardinal Ratzinger he made a lot of Anti-Turkish statements regarding EU. Being Pope and representer of a greater audience he now talks the other way and it seems he searches dialogue with Turkey.
    Visiting Ataturk Mausoleum and bound there was also a plus-point.

    The issue with the Patriarchate is all about ecumenical or not. According to Lausanne treaty it is not.
    And Patriarchate will no matter what do not become a second Vatican on Turkish secular territory, acting independent and a state within the state.
    This only serves Megalo Idea of Greek 3rd Article in constitution.
    Lausanne Treaty is here precise of what status Patriachate has.
    Even when Patriarchate becomes 2nd vatican and a state within state in Turkey, then maybe someone wants to buy the Caliphate-Flag from Bilkent University and wants to re-establish the Caliphate in Istanbul also acting as a state within state.
    Religion in Turkey is under one condition: Under the control of Turkish state.
    Secularism is understood in Turkey as the domination of the state over all religious institutions and practices and definition highness of Religion.
    This will not change and Islam is practiced this way in Turkey.
    Under this context the Caliphate was also abolished by Ataturk and Islam became a nonindependent element in Turkey .
    And Christian Institutions in Turkey are in no exception of this practice. Off course Turkey will not interpret and define Orthodox Christianity as it does with Islam, but Orthodoxy has to be tied to Turkish Institutions and teachings of Orthodox priests has to be done in State-University faculties, as it is done with Muslim Imams.
    This is the way out of State discrimination combined with improving situation of Thracean Turks in Greece, as Greeks in Turkey and Turks in Greece are one inseparable element since the beginning of the problems.

    No one can expect Turkey solve Orthodox issue and Muslim issue in Thrace is not solved. Both have to be done parallel.
     
  8. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    The Pope waveing the Turkish flag, saying he loves Turks
    [​IMG]

    Tomorrow he will visit Aya Sofya and Blue Mosque in Istanbul.
     
  9. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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  10. Gunny
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    Gunny Gold Member

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    The Pope is kissing ass.
     

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