And Why Did the Terrorist Attack Us?

[PixieStix]

Al Qaeda Islamic terror attacks against America are motivated not by a hatred of American culture and religion but by the belief that U.S. foreign policy is a threat to Islam. Over the last 60 years, we have engaged in 3 major wars in the these countries, conducted countless clandestine ventures, supported dictators, bought off heads of government, and killed thousands of innocents people to support these policies.

The cost to the US has been very high. We have had tens of thousand killed and wounded. We spent trillions upon trillions of dollars. And how has benefited us? We have put ourselves in the cross hairs of every two bit terrorist organization in the world. We have stomped all over the Constitution in an attempt turn the country into an impregnable fortress. And finally, we have made it possible for the US to continue it's dependence on Arab oil.

How blind are you?

ANYTHING that they think of as a threat to islam will be killed. That is not just American foreign policy. It is anyone who thinks for themselves. Anyone how is not a muslim. Anyone who speaks out against them.

Anything that does not follow islam is a threat.

This is true, ask Theo VanGogh

 

[asterism]

Al Qaeda Islamic terror attacks against America are motivated not by a hatred of American culture and religion but by the belief that U.S. foreign policy is a threat to Islam. Over the last 60 years, we have engaged in 3 major wars in the these countries, conducted countless clandestine ventures, supported dictators, bought off heads of government, and killed thousands of innocents people to support these policies.

The cost to the US has been very high. We have had tens of thousand killed and wounded. We spent trillions upon trillions of dollars. And how has benefited us? We have put ourselves in the cross hairs of every two bit terrorist organization in the world. We have stomped all over the Constitution in an attempt turn the country into an impregnable fortress. And finally, we have made it possible for the US to continue it's dependence on Arab oil.

You got the "threat to Islam" part right, but only in the context that the current leaders of these terrorist groups have effectively sold themselves as "Leaders of Islam."

If you were a billionaire shunned by your country because you wanted to be the one who protected the sacred land, who would you attack to convince them they are better than you? The ones who actually protected the sacred land?

Read up a little about the "Barbary Wars." Megalomaniacs have been using Islam as cover for their own criminal enterprises for a long long time.

Now this will undoubtedly get back to the abuses of the Holy Roman Empire and the Crusades, but reforms in the Catholic Church rolled back the role of Rome as a force governing wide territories. The Ottoman Empire took advantage of that situation and continued to expand.

Of course it really wasn't about religion, it was (and is) about one person getting some power.

 

[asterism]

Why?

Well, they don't like our foreign policy, and they do have a nasty hate against the West, not just America..

It's pretty simple.

One thing though.. Even if we didn't have our troops around the Middle East do you really think for a second they still wouldn't have attacked us?

Yes. If America did not have a military presence in the Middle East and did not have a history of interference or supporting corrupt regimes and Israel, I can absolutely assure you that the attacks would not have occurred. It would probably have been Israel or Russia.

There's the rub, that whole "history of interference."

So you're saying that even if we pulled out of all of it today and the leftist economic model of Muslim Caliph wannabees kept life very bad for people there would still be a justification to attack?

So there is no solution other than to actually wage war and eliminate the threat then?

 

[asterism]

Granted they are religious fanatics but it goes much deeper than that.

The basis for most all the problems we have with the Muslim world boils down two things, support for Israel and Oil. We are not hated because of who we are, but rather for what we do. Our ventures into the Middle East have been costly both in dollars and human lives. Had our intrusion into the Arab world been limited to the Israeli issue, our relations would have improved with time. Our actions to keep oil flowing to the west and out of the hands of Russia clearly made us the enemy to many Muslims.

First we instigated a government overflow in 1953 in Iran putting the Shaw in power. For 25 years we supported a dictatorship in Iran giving them 1.2 billion dollars to keep the oil flowing to the west until the people of Iran revolted and put the Ayatollah in power.

We then helped Saddam Hussein in the war against Iran. Then we turned on Saddam and attacked when he threatens the flow oil by invading Kuwait. Tens years later we attacked Iraq again because they had WMDs which turned out to be bogus. During the war we killed over 100,000 civilians and embarrass ourselves with the Abagrave prison scandal and the lack of evidence of WMDs.

In Afghanistan, we supported the Afghans against Russia to prevent Russian from controlling a proposed oil pipeline across Afghanistan. Then we walked out of Afghanistan leaving it to the Taliban. Today we are fighting against those that we previously supported.

In Guantanamo, we hold hundreds of accused terrorist without trial, which is contrary to our claims we make about American justice.

During this entire foreign policy debacle, we bought off the Saudi royal family with arms deals and defense agreements, which has alienates them and us in the Middle East.

If you want to know why Islamic terrorist attack us, you need only to look at 60 years of American foreign policy in the Middle East which has been a disaster. The solution is painful but very simple. GET THE HELL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST BY BECOMING ENERGY INDEPENDENT.

Iran ? United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Guantanamo Bay detention camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bin Laden or any Sunni could care less that we helped Saddam against Shiite Iran.

The other stuff you said doesn't even make sense.

The reason Bin Laden attacked us was because he was a sick fuck. But his reasoning is easy to understand. Saddam invaded Kuwait. The other middle eastern countries turned to us instead of Bin Laden. That's what pissed him off. He didn't like "infidels" attacking Arabs in their "Holy Lands" and he was mad they didn't want his help, but preferred help from the US.

Bush 1 sent Saddam back to Iraq.

Bush 1 did the right thing. Bin Laden attacking us was on Bin Laden, NOT George Bush 1.

How do we know this? Because Bin Laden told us. It's as simple as that.

We agree on all this above.

Bush 1 didn't invade Iraq because he knew the cost would bankrupt this country. By the time his son was president, America had forgotten all of the lessons learned over the previous 90 years.

We disagree here, but that boils down a judgement of strategy. You might think that the Clinton Administration was just bluffing, but in the end there is no effective bluff unless sometimes you show that you really do have a better hand.

I can accept a civil disagreement on strategy though. Can you?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Granted they are religious fanatics but it goes much deeper than that.

The basis for most all the problems we have with the Muslim world boils down two things, support for Israel and Oil. We are not hated because of who we are, but rather for what we do. Our ventures into the Middle East have been costly both in dollars and human lives. Had our intrusion into the Arab world been limited to the Israeli issue, our relations would have improved with time. Our actions to keep oil flowing to the west and out of the hands of Russia clearly made us the enemy to many Muslims.

First we instigated a government overflow in 1953 in Iran putting the Shaw in power. For 25 years we supported a dictatorship in Iran giving them 1.2 billion dollars to keep the oil flowing to the west until the people of Iran revolted and put the Ayatollah in power.

We then helped Saddam Hussein in the war against Iran. Then we turned on Saddam and attacked when he threatens the flow oil by invading Kuwait. Tens years later we attacked Iraq again because they had WMDs which turned out to be bogus. During the war we killed over 100,000 civilians and embarrass ourselves with the Abagrave prison scandal and the lack of evidence of WMDs.

In Afghanistan, we supported the Afghans against Russia to prevent Russian from controlling a proposed oil pipeline across Afghanistan. Then we walked out of Afghanistan leaving it to the Taliban. Today we are fighting against those that we previously supported.

In Guantanamo, we hold hundreds of accused terrorist without trial, which is contrary to our claims we make about American justice.

During this entire foreign policy debacle, we bought off the Saudi royal family with arms deals and defense agreements, which has alienates them and us in the Middle East.

If you want to know why Islamic terrorist attack us, you need only to look at 60 years of American foreign policy in the Middle East which has been a disaster. The solution is painful but very simple. GET THE HELL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST BY BECOMING ENERGY INDEPENDENT.

Iran ? United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Guantanamo Bay detention camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just like that? Do you plan on introducing a new source of cheap energy that totally replaces oil? If not, shut up.

 

[Flopper]

Why?

Well, they don't like our foreign policy, and they do have a nasty hate against the West, not just America..

It's pretty simple.

One thing though.. Even if we didn't have our troops around the Middle East do you really think for a second they still wouldn't have attacked us?

Who knows. We have meddled in those countries for so long and in so many ways it's impossible to tell what the underlying causes are. The motives for the 911 attacks include the presence of the U.S. in Saudi Arabia, the support of Israel by the U.S. and the sanctions against Iraq. The reasons given for most major terrorist attacks are quite explicit and are almost always related to US policy our actions or other countries in supporting those policies.

 

[asterism]

Why?

Well, they don't like our foreign policy, and they do have a nasty hate against the West, not just America..

It's pretty simple.

One thing though.. Even if we didn't have our troops around the Middle East do you really think for a second they still wouldn't have attacked us?

Who knows. We have meddled in those countries for so long and in so many ways it's impossible to tell what the underlying causes are. The motives for the 911 attacks include the presence of the U.S. in Saudi Arabia, the support of Israel by the U.S. and the sanctions against Iraq. The reasons given for most major terrorist attacks are quite explicit and are almost always related to US policy our actions or other countries in supporting those policies.

I take it you didn't read about the Barbary Wars.

 

[Flopper]

Why?

Well, they don't like our foreign policy, and they do have a nasty hate against the West, not just America..

It's pretty simple.

One thing though.. Even if we didn't have our troops around the Middle East do you really think for a second they still wouldn't have attacked us?

Yes. If America did not have a military presence in the Middle East and did not have a history of interference or supporting corrupt regimes and Israel, I can absolutely assure you that the attacks would not have occurred. It would probably have been Israel or Russia.

I agree, but why Russia.

 

[Flopper]

Muslim brutal crimes against humanity are going on a daily basis all over this planet. And they're not just slaughtering Christians & Jews which of course the silly Left Wingers don't have a problem with. They are committing awful atrocities against Non-Muslims of all sorts of different ethnic & religious groups. Just do some real research and see for yourself. So it's time to put an end to that Muslim "Victim Card" routine once and for all. They're no victims. They are actually the victimisers in most cases.

Muslims certainly haven't cornered the market on killing.
Hindus Continue to Slaughter Muslims in India Hindus Continue to Slaughter Muslims in India | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction
Serbia Condemns the massacre of 8000 Muslims
Serbia apologizes for Srebrenica massacre - RT
Massacre of Muslims and Democracy in Thailand
Massacre of Muslims and Democracy in Thailand | America at War
I could throw in 100,000 civilians mostly Muslims who died in Iraq but I guess that's irrelevant.

 

[Flopper]

In response to the thread title, there is this excerpt from the article "Is Jihad Fard Kifaya or Fard Ayn?" posted on islamicemerate.com written by Ibn Nuhaas. I'd post a link, however, I'm unable to at the present time due to not having enough posts.

"This is all regarding the Jihad, which is Kifayah - a collective duty - (starting war with the non-believers on their territory). But if the enemy enters the Muslim land, or even approaches it and masses on its borders, even if they do not actually enter it, and their armies are double the size of that of the Muslims or less, then Jihad becomes mandatory on each and every individual. Then, the slave leaves without the permission of the master, the woman without the permission of her husband (if she has the strength to fight according to the stronger opinion), the son without the permission of the parents, and the one indebt without the permission of the lender. All of the above stated is the opinion of Imam Malik, Ahmad, and Abu Hanifah (in addition to the madhab of the author which is Shafi’i)."

The first sentence in the above quote makes it fairly clear as to why they feel they can attack any country made up of "unbelievers". The rest explains rather well the reason they're fighting "unbelievers" in their own lands. They feel they not only have the right, but that they're commanded/obligated to.

Please don't get the idea that I find their justifications/reasons/ideals acceptable, because I don't. I have nothing good to say about a religion that treats people (believers as well as unbelievers) the way Islam does.

I think the most relevant part of this quote is "But if the enemy enters the Muslim land,"

 

[Kalam]

Why?

Well, they don't like our foreign policy, and they do have a nasty hate against the West, not just America..

It's pretty simple.

One thing though.. Even if we didn't have our troops around the Middle East do you really think for a second they still wouldn't have attacked us?

Yes. If America did not have a military presence in the Middle East and did not have a history of interference or supporting corrupt regimes and Israel, I can absolutely assure you that the attacks would not have occurred. It would probably have been Israel or Russia.

I agree, but why Russia.

Al-Qa'idah absolutely hates Russia for what they've done in Chechnya. I share that sentiment insofar as I detest the Russian military and government. The people I don't blame.

 

[Flopper]

[...]
If you want to know why Islamic terrorist attack us, you need only to look at 60 years of American foreign policy in the Middle East which has been a disaster. The solution is painful but very simple. GET THE HELL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST BY BECOMING ENERGY INDEPENDENT.

Flopper,

I agree with all you've said here.

My understanding of the provocation for the 9/11 attack derives from the horse's mouth. The following is transcripted from a 1998 PBS documentary in which John Miller interviewed Usama bin Laden in an Afghanistan cave:


"...while America blocks the entry of weapons into Islamic countries, it provides the Israelis with a continuous supply of arms allowing them thus to kill and massacre more Muslims. Your religion does not forbid you from committing such acts, so you have no right to object to any response or retaliation that reciprocates your own actions." --Osama bin Laden

Read this interview before it disappears from the web:
frontline: hunting bin laden: who is bin laden?: interview with osama bin laden (in may 1998) | PBS


Excerpts from the Interview with Osama bin Laden:

Western forces... support the Jewish and Zionist plans for expansion of what is called the Great Israel. Surely, their presence is not out of concern over their interests in the region....Their presence has no meaning save one, and that is to offer support to the Jews in Palestine...

...For over half a century, Muslims in Palestine have been slaughtered and assaulted and robbed of their honor and of their property. Their houses have been blasted, their crops destroyed. And the strange thing is that any act on their part to avenge themselves or to lift the injustice befalling them causes great agitation in the United Nations which hastens to call for an emergency meeting only to convict the victim and to censure the wronged and the tyrannized, whose children have been killed and whose crops have been destroyed and whose farms have been pulverized. ...

It is not enough for the... people (of the West) to show pain when they see our children being killed in Israeli raids launched by American planes, nor does this serve the purpose. What they ought to do is change their governments which attack our countries.

...The enmity between us and the Jews goes far back in time and is deep rooted. There is no question that war between the two of us is inevitable. For this reason it is not in the interest of Western governments to expose...their people to all kinds of retaliation for almost nothing. It is hoped that people of those countries will initiate a positive move and force their governments not to act on behalf of other states and other sects...

The leaders in America and in other countries as well have fallen victim to Jewish Zionist blackmail. They have mobilized their people against Islam and against Muslims. These are portrayed in such a manner as to drive people to rally against them. The truth is that the whole Muslim world is the victim of international terrorism, engineered by America at the United Nations. We are a nation whose sacred symbols have been looted and whose wealth and resources have been plundered. It is normal for us to react against the forces that invade our land and occupy it. Once again, I have to stress the necessity of focusing on the Americans and the Jews for they represent the spearhead with which the members of our religion have been slaughtered.

The Americans started it and retaliation and punishment should be carried out following the principle of reciprocity, especially when women and children are involved. Through history, America has not been known to differentiate between the military and the civilians or between men and women or adults and children. Those who threw atomic bombs and used the weapons of mass destruction against Nagasaki and Hiroshima were the Americans. Can the bombs differentiate between military (men) and women and infants and children?

America has no religion that can deter her from exterminating whole peoples. Your position against Muslims in Palestine is despicable and disgraceful. America has no shame. ... We believe that the worst thieves in the world today and the worst terrorists are the Americans. Nothing could stop you except perhaps retaliation in kind... As to what you said about the attempt to assassinate President Clinton, it is not surprising. What do you expect from people attacked by Clinton, whose sons and mothers have been killed by Clinton? Do you expect anything but treatment by reciprocity?

... Allah has granted the Muslim people and the Afghani mujahedeen, and those with them, the opportunity to fight the Russians and the Soviet Union. ... They were defeated by Allah and were wiped out. There is a lesson here. The Soviet Union entered Afghanistan late in December of '79. The flag of the Soviet Union was folded once and for all on the 25th of December just 10 years later. It was thrown in the waste basket. Gone was the Soviet Union forever. We are certain that we shall - with the grace of Allah - prevail over the Americans and over the Jews, as the Messenger of Allah promised us in an authentic prophetic tradition when He said the Hour of Resurrection shall not come before Muslims fight Jews and before Jews hide behind trees and behind rocks.

...We are certain - with the grace of Allah - that we shall prevail over the Jews and over those fighting with them. Today however, our battle against the Americans is far greater than our battle was against the Russians. Americans have committed unprecedented stupidity. They have attacked Islam and its most significant sacrosanct symbols ... . We anticipate a black future for America. Instead of remaining United States, it shall end up separated states and shall have to carry the bodies of its sons back to America.

After our victory in Afghanistan and the defeat of the oppressors who had killed millions of Muslims, the legend about the invincibility of the superpowers vanished. Our boys no longer viewed America as a superpower. So, when they left Afghanistan, they went to Somalia and prepared themselves carefully for a long war. They had thought that the Americans were (tough) like the Russians, so they trained and prepared. They were stunned when they discovered how low was the morale of the American soldier. America had entered with 30,000 soldiers in addition to thousands of soldiers from different countries in the world...

As I said, our boys were shocked by the low morale of the American soldier and they realized that the American soldier was just a paper tiger. He was unable to endure the strikes that were dealt to his army, so he fled, and America had to stop all its bragging and all that noise it was making in the press after the Gulf War in which it destroyed the infrastructure and the milk and dairy industry that was vital for the infants and the children and the civilians and blew up dams which were necessary for the crops people grew to feed their families. Proud of this destruction, America assumed the titles of world leader and master of the New World Order. After a few blows, it forgot all about those titles and rushed out of Somalia in shame and disgrace, dragging the bodies of its soldiers.... I was in Sudan when this happened.

Our mothers and daughters and sons are slaughtered every day with the approval of America and its support. And, while America blocks the entry of weapons into Islamic countries, it provides the Israelis with a continuous supply of arms allowing them thus to kill and massacre more Muslims. Your religion does not forbid you from committing such acts, so you have no right to object to any response or retaliation that reciprocates your own actions.

But, and in spite of this, our retaliation is directed primarily against the soldiers only and against those standing by them. Our religion forbids us from killing innocent people such as women and children. This, however, does not apply to women fighters. A woman who puts herself in the same trench with men, gets what they get. ...

Interviewer: Do you have a message for the American people?

Bin Laden: I say to them that they have put themselves at the mercy of a disloyal government, and this is most evident in Clinton's administration...We believe that this administration represents Israel inside America. Take the sensitive ministries such as the...Ministry of Defense and the CIA, you will find that the Jews have the upper hand in them. They make use of America to further their plans for the world...

American presence in the Gulf provides support to the Jews and protects their rear. And while millions of Americans are homeless and destitute and live in abject poverty, their government is busy occupying our land and building new settlements and helping Israel build new settlements in the (region that was the) point of departure for our Prophet's midnight journey to the seven heavens. America throws her own sons in the land of the two Holy Mosques for the sake of protecting Jewish interests. ...

The (Federal) government is leading America towards hell. ... We say to the Americans as people and to American mothers, if they cherish their lives and if they cherish their sons, they must elect an American patriotic government that caters to their interests, not the interests of the Jews. If the present injustice continues...it will inevitably move the battle to American soil... This is my message to the American people. I urge them to find a serious administration that acts in their interest and does not attack people and violate their honor and pilfer their wealth. ...

--OSAMA BIN LADEN, 1998

Complete interview online at:

frontline: hunting bin laden: who is bin laden?: interview with osama bin laden (in may 1998) | PBS


It is interesting to note that shortly after the 9/11 attack Bush very quietly removed the bin Sultan Airbase from Mecca and he pressured Sharon into withdrawing the settlements from Gaza. Had he or Clinton done these things prior to 9/11 the attack would not have taken place. But bin Laden makes it unequivocally clear that the primary antagonism is our support of expansionist Israel.

Very interesting. Notice that not once did he refer to his enemies as infidels. Everything he said was an attack on American foreign policy. But I think this is most interesting statement. "It is interesting to note that shortly after the 9/11 attack Bush very quietly removed the bin Sultan Airbase from Mecca and he pressured Sharon into withdrawing the settlements from Gaza. Had he or Clinton done these things prior to 9/11 the attack would not have taken place."

 

[CaféAuLait]

Granted they are religious fanatics but it goes much deeper than that.

The basis for most all the problems we have with the Muslim world boils down two things, support for Israel and Oil. We are not hated because of who we are, but rather for what we do. Our ventures into the Middle East have been costly both in dollars and human lives. Had our intrusion into the Arab world been limited to the Israeli issue, our relations would have improved with time. Our actions to keep oil flowing to the west and out of the hands of Russia clearly made us the enemy to many Muslims.

First we instigated a government overflow in 1953 in Iran putting the Shaw in power. For 25 years we supported a dictatorship in Iran giving them 1.2 billion dollars to keep the oil flowing to the west until the people of Iran revolted and put the Ayatollah in power.

We then helped Saddam Hussein in the war against Iran. Then we turned on Saddam and attacked when he threatens the flow oil by invading Kuwait. Tens years later we attacked Iraq again because they had WMDs which turned out to be bogus. During the war we killed over 100,000 civilians and embarrass ourselves with the Abagrave prison scandal and the lack of evidence of WMDs.

In Afghanistan, we supported the Afghans against Russia to prevent Russian from controlling a proposed oil pipeline across Afghanistan. Then we walked out of Afghanistan leaving it to the Taliban. Today we are fighting against those that we previously supported.

In Guantanamo, we hold hundreds of accused terrorist without trial, which is contrary to our claims we make about American justice.

During this entire foreign policy debacle, we bought off the Saudi royal family with arms deals and defense agreements, which has alienates them and us in the Middle East.

If you want to know why Islamic terrorist attack us, you need only to look at 60 years of American foreign policy in the Middle East which has been a disaster. The solution is painful but very simple. GET THE HELL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST BY BECOMING ENERGY INDEPENDENT.

Iran ? United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Guantanamo Bay detention camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well then I guess we need to explain why they attacked London, Spain, Africa and Bali too, eh? I think I left out a few places as well...

 

[Flopper]

Why?

Well, they don't like our foreign policy, and they do have a nasty hate against the West, not just America..

It's pretty simple.

One thing though.. Even if we didn't have our troops around the Middle East do you really think for a second they still wouldn't have attacked us?

Yes. If America did not have a military presence in the Middle East and did not have a history of interference or supporting corrupt regimes and Israel, I can absolutely assure you that the attacks would not have occurred. It would probably have been Israel or Russia.

There's the rub, that whole "history of interference."

So you're saying that even if we pulled out of all of it today and the leftist economic model of Muslim Caliph wannabees kept life very bad for people there would still be a justification to attack?

So there is no solution other than to actually wage war and eliminate the threat then?

We did not create this mess overnight. It took 60 years. Our strategic plan for the Middle East for over half century has been based on unequivocally support of Israel against it's neighbors and keeping Arab oil flowing to the west. This has to change. Israel must come to terms with it's neighbors or stand up to them without US support. We must reduce our dependence on Arab oil or we will forever be intruding into the affairs of these countries to protect our interest in region.

 

[Flopper]

Granted they are religious fanatics but it goes much deeper than that.

The basis for most all the problems we have with the Muslim world boils down two things, support for Israel and Oil. We are not hated because of who we are, but rather for what we do. Our ventures into the Middle East have been costly both in dollars and human lives. Had our intrusion into the Arab world been limited to the Israeli issue, our relations would have improved with time. Our actions to keep oil flowing to the west and out of the hands of Russia clearly made us the enemy to many Muslims.

First we instigated a government overflow in 1953 in Iran putting the Shaw in power. For 25 years we supported a dictatorship in Iran giving them 1.2 billion dollars to keep the oil flowing to the west until the people of Iran revolted and put the Ayatollah in power.

We then helped Saddam Hussein in the war against Iran. Then we turned on Saddam and attacked when he threatens the flow oil by invading Kuwait. Tens years later we attacked Iraq again because they had WMDs which turned out to be bogus. During the war we killed over 100,000 civilians and embarrass ourselves with the Abagrave prison scandal and the lack of evidence of WMDs.

In Afghanistan, we supported the Afghans against Russia to prevent Russian from controlling a proposed oil pipeline across Afghanistan. Then we walked out of Afghanistan leaving it to the Taliban. Today we are fighting against those that we previously supported.

In Guantanamo, we hold hundreds of accused terrorist without trial, which is contrary to our claims we make about American justice.

During this entire foreign policy debacle, we bought off the Saudi royal family with arms deals and defense agreements, which has alienates them and us in the Middle East.

If you want to know why Islamic terrorist attack us, you need only to look at 60 years of American foreign policy in the Middle East which has been a disaster. The solution is painful but very simple. GET THE HELL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST BY BECOMING ENERGY INDEPENDENT.

Iran ? United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Guantanamo Bay detention camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just like that? Do you plan on introducing a new source of cheap energy that totally replaces oil? If not, shut up.

We do not have to replace oil with another form of energy. We just have to reduce our dependence sufficiently so that a steady flow of foreign is not of strategic importance to us. This can be done with a combination of increasing domestic production and moving to other forms of energy. If there were any sanity in Washington, Democrats and Republicans could compromise on an energy bill that would accomplish energy independent within 10 years and put us on a road that would someday eliminate most of our needs for oil.

 

[Exegete]

I would to comment on few remarks made by Flopper.

Granted they are religious fanatics but it goes much deeper than that.


[Yes, I agree.}

The basis for most all the problems we have with the Muslim world boils down two things, support for Israel and Oil.

[Consider some additional factors. How many Muslims have been killed by the US military over the past several decades? That's a question that has to be answered].

We are not hated because of who we are, but rather for what we do.

[Yes. Make a list of US interventions in the Muslim World. Start with the US intervention in the Phillipine, during the Spanish American War in 1898. Over 600,000 were killed, most of them Musilms, thanks to General Pershing. Continue, and start adding up the casualties. Muslims are aware of these figures, even if Most US citizens are not.]

Our ventures into the Middle East have been costly both in dollars and human lives.

[Not just the Middle East. Add Indonesia, Africa, Pakistan, Afghanistan, to name a few.]


Had our intrusion into the Arab world been limited to the Israeli issue, our relations would have improved with time. Our actions to keep oil flowing to the west and out of the hands of Russia clearly made us the enemy to many Muslims.

[Add our support for Russian efforts to suppress their own Muslim population.]

First we instigated a government overflow in 1953 in Iran putting the Shah in power. For 25 years we supported a dictatorship in Iran giving them 1.2 billion dollars to keep the oil flowing to the west until the people of Iran revolted and put the Ayatollah in power.

[It isn't just about "keeping the oil flowing to the west." It's about appropriating a huge percentage of the PROFITS that come from oil in other nations. Iran and Iraq had nationalized their oil. Libya did the same thing. For this reason, they were considered enemies. On the other hand, the Gulf monarchies -- Saudi Arabia, Oman, Kuwait, UAE ... -- have traditionally shared their oil revenues with the large Western Oil Transnational Corporations. Add another fact: If the Gulf monarchs were ever deposed, if genuine democracy were ever established in these states, the people would undoubtedly vote to nationalize and keep ALL THE PROFITS that come from their own oil. This is another reason the US government is despised by "the Arab street." ]

We then helped Saddam Hussein in the war against Iran. Then we turned on Saddam and attacked when he threatens the flow oil by invading Kuwait.

[I must repeat and emphasize this point, which is often misunderstood. It is NOT the flow of oil that was threatened. All oil states want to sell their oil to the West. It is Western control of the OIL PROFITS that was threatened. Kuwait shared it's oil profits with transnational oil corporations. Iraq did not. ]

Tens years later we attacked Iraq again because they had WMDs which turned out to be bogus. During the war we killed over 100,000 civilians and embarrass ourselves with the Abhu Ghraib prison scandal and the lack of evidence of WMDs.

[Let's not forget, that well over one and a half million Iraqis were killed by the sanctions regime, more than half of them children, and that Sec of State, M. Albright admitted this publicly, and said it was worthwhile considering the alternative.]


In Afghanistan, we supported the Afghans against Russia to prevent Russian from controlling a proposed oil pipeline across Afghanistan.

[I am not sure that is accurate. Does anyone have any info on that]?

 

[Exegete]

The Guinness Book of World Records is considering whether to list the US as the nation which has engaged in the largest number of military interventions in modern history.

Perhaps we should examine the list below, and see how many of these were interventions in Muslim countries. I count about thirty.

Several million Muslims were killed in these actions. (Think how many were killed by the British and the French through most of this period, too.)

How many Americans have been killed by Muslims from 1898 until today. I am sure the number is less than several thousand.

Does anyone wish to contest that?

I think Obama was stretching the truth a bit when he said that al-Qaeda has killed more Muslims than any one else. Al-Qaeda must have killed less than 10,000 total. The US killed more than that during the first few years of the Afghan war. Add Iraq that's another million. Why can't Obama (or any mainstream US politician tell the truth about this?

First realize the truth. Then act in accordance with that truth. Read history. Find the facts.

Start with the list below:


Over a Century of U.S. Military Interventions

compiled by Zoltan Grossman

The following is a partial list of U.S. military interventions from 1890 to 1994. This guide does not include demonstration duty by military police, mobilizations of the National Guard, offshore shows of naval strength, reinforcements of embassy personnel, the use of non-Defense Department personnel (such as the Drug Enforcement Agency), military exercises, non-combat mobilizations (such as replacing postal strikers), the permanent stationing of armed forces, covert actions where the U.S. did not play a command and control role, the use of small hostage rescue units, most uses of proxy troops, U.S. piloting of foreign warplanes, foreign disaster assistance, military training and advisory programs not involving direct combat, civic action programs, and many other military activities. Among sources used, besides news reports, are the Congressional Record (23 June 1969), 180 Landings by the U.S. Marine Corps History Division, Ege & Makhijani in Counterspy (July-Aug. 1982), and Ellsberg in Protest & Survive.

LOCATION/Period/Type of Force/Comments on U.S. role

SOUTH DAKOTA/1890 (-?)/Troops/300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA/1890/Troops/Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE/l891/Troops/Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI/1891/Troops/Black workers revolt on U.S.-claimed Navassa Island defeated.
IDAHO/1892/Troops/Army suppresses silverminers' strike.
HAWAII/l893 (-?)/Naval, troops/Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO/1894/Troops/Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA/l894/Troops/Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA/l894-95/Naval, troops/Marines land in Sino-Japanese War.
KOREA/l894-96/Troops/Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA/1895/Troops, naval/Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA/l896/Troops/Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA/l898-1900/Troops/Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES/l898-1910(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos.
CUBA/l898-1902(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO/1898(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, occupation continues. GUAM/l898(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA/l898(-?)/Troops/Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA/l898/Troops/Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA/1899(-?)/Troops/Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA/l899/Troops/Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO/1899-1901/Troops/Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA/1901/Troops/Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA/1901-03(-?)/Naval, troops/Broke off from Colombia, annexed Canal Zone.
HONDURAS/l903/Troops/Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REP./1903-04/Troops/U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA/1904-05/Troops/Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA/1906-09/Troops/Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA/1907/Troops/"Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS/l907/Troops/Marines land during war with Nicaragua.
PANAMA/l908/Troops/Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA/l9l0/Troops/Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS/1911/Troops/U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA/1911-41/Naval, troops/Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA/1912/Troops/U.S. interests protected in Havana.
PANAMA/l9l2/Troops/Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS/l9l2/Troops/Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA/1912-33/Troops, bombing/20-year occupation, fought guerrillas.
MEXICO/l9l3/Naval/Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1914/Naval/Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO/1914/Troops/Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO/1914-18/Naval, troops/Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI/1914-34/Troops, bombing/19-year occupation after revolts.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1916-24/Troops/8-year Marine occupation. CUBA/1917-33/Troops/Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I/19l7-18/Naval, troops/Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 l/2 years.
RUSSIA/1918-22/Naval, troops/Five landings to fight Bolsheviks.
PANAMA/1918-20/Troops/"Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS/l9l9/Troops/Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA/1920/Troops/2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA/1920-21/Troops, bombing/Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY/1922/Troops/Fought nationalists in Smyrna (Izmir).
CHINA/1922-27/Naval, troops/Deployment during nationalist revolt.
HONDURAS/1924-25/Troops/Landed twice during election strife.
PANAMA/1925/Troops/Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA/l928-34/Troops/Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR/l932/Naval/Warships sent during Faribundo Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC/1932/Troops/Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
WORLD WAR II/1941-45/Naval,troops, bombing, nuclear/Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germany for 3 years; 1st nuclear war.
DETROIT/l943/Troops/Army puts down Black rebellion.
IRAN/l946/Nuclear threat/Soviet troops told to leave north (Iranian Azerbaijan).
YUGOSLAVIA/l946/Nuclear threat/Response to shooting-down of U.S. plane.
URUGUAY/l947/Nuclear threat/Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE/l947-49/Command operation/U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
GERMANY/l948/Nuclear threat/Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
PHILIPPINES/l948-54/Command operation/CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO/1950/Command operation/Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA/l951-53(-?)/Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats/U.S.& South Korea fight China & North Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in l950, and against China in l953. Still have bases.
IRAN/l953/Command operation/CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM/l954/Nuclear threat/Bombs offered to French to use against siege.
GUATEMALA/l954/Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat/CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalizes U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT/l956/Nuclear threat/Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis.
LEBANON/l958/Troops, naval/Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ/1958/Nuclear threat/Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA/l958/Nuclear threat/China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA/1958/Troops/Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM/l960-75/Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats/Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
LAOS/1961/Command operation/Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA/l961/Command operation/CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY/l961/Nuclear threat/Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
CUBA/l962/Nuclear threat, naval/Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
PANAMA/l964/Troops/Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA/l965/Command operation/Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1965-66/Troops, bombing/Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA/l966-67/Command operation/Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT/l967/Troops/Army battles Blacks, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES/l968/Troops/After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA/l969-75/Bombing, troops, naval/Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN/l970/Command operation/U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS/l971-73/Command operation, bombing/U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside. SOUTH DAKOTA/l973/Command operation/Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST/1973/Nuclear threat/World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE/1973/Command operation/CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA/l975/Troops, bombing/Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA/l976-92/Command operation/CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN/l980/Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing/Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA/l981/Naval jets/Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR/l981-92/Command operation, troops/Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA/l981-90/Command operation, naval/CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
HONDURAS/l982-90/Troops/Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
LEBANON/l982-84/Naval, bombing, troops/Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
GRENADA/l983-84/Troops, bombing/Invasion four years after revolution.
LIBYA/l986/Bombing, naval/Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.
BOLIVIA/1987/Troops/Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN/l987-88/Naval, bombing/US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.
LIBYA/1989/Naval jets/Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS/1989/Troops/St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES/1989/Jets/Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA/1989-?/Troops, bombing/Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA/1990/Troops/Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA/1990-91/Troops, jets/Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
KUWAIT/1991/Naval, bombing, troops/Kuwait royal family returned to throne. IRAQ/1990-?/Bombing, troops, naval/Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large- scale destruction of Iraqi military.
LOS ANGELES/1992/Troops/Army, Marines deployed against anti- police uprising.
SOMALIA/1992-94/Troops, naval, bombing/U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
JUGOSLAVIA/1992-94/Naval/Nato blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA/1993-?/Jets, bombing/No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI/1994-?/Troops, naval/Blockcade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.

 

[asterism]

Yes. If America did not have a military presence in the Middle East and did not have a history of interference or supporting corrupt regimes and Israel, I can absolutely assure you that the attacks would not have occurred. It would probably have been Israel or Russia.

I agree, but why Russia.

Al-Qa'idah absolutely hates Russia for what they've done in Chechnya. I share that sentiment insofar as I detest the Russian military and government. The people I don't blame.

I'm detecting a pattern here, justified hatred. "We wouldn't have attacked if you guys hadn't kicked our asses in [insert situation]."

Go on, you're proving my case.

 

[asterism]

Yes. If America did not have a military presence in the Middle East and did not have a history of interference or supporting corrupt regimes and Israel, I can absolutely assure you that the attacks would not have occurred. It would probably have been Israel or Russia.

There's the rub, that whole "history of interference."

So you're saying that even if we pulled out of all of it today and the leftist economic model of Muslim Caliph wannabees kept life very bad for people there would still be a justification to attack?

So there is no solution other than to actually wage war and eliminate the threat then?

We did not create this mess overnight. It took 60 years. Our strategic plan for the Middle East for over half century has been based on unequivocally support of Israel against it's neighbors and keeping Arab oil flowing to the west. This has to change. Israel must come to terms with it's neighbors or stand up to them without US support. We must reduce our dependence on Arab oil or we will forever be intruding into the affairs of these countries to protect our interest in region.

Ah.

So pulling out right now won't stop the attacks then?

 

[Flopper]

I would to comment on few remarks made by Flopper.

Granted they are religious fanatics but it goes much deeper than that.


[Yes, I agree.}

The basis for most all the problems we have with the Muslim world boils down two things, support for Israel and Oil.

[Consider some additional factors. How many Muslims have been killed by the US military over the past several decades? That's a question that has to be answered].

We are not hated because of who we are, but rather for what we do.

[Yes. Make a list of US interventions in the Muslim World. Start with the US intervention in the Phillipine, during the Spanish American War in 1898. Over 600,000 were killed, most of them Musilms, thanks to General Pershing. Continue, and start adding up the casualties. Muslims are aware of these figures, even if Most US citizens are not.]

Our ventures into the Middle East have been costly both in dollars and human lives.

[Not just the Middle East. Add Indonesia, Africa, Pakistan, Afghanistan, to name a few.]


Had our intrusion into the Arab world been limited to the Israeli issue, our relations would have improved with time. Our actions to keep oil flowing to the west and out of the hands of Russia clearly made us the enemy to many Muslims.

[Add our support for Russian efforts to suppress their own Muslim population.]

First we instigated a government overflow in 1953 in Iran putting the Shah in power. For 25 years we supported a dictatorship in Iran giving them 1.2 billion dollars to keep the oil flowing to the west until the people of Iran revolted and put the Ayatollah in power.

[It isn't just about "keeping the oil flowing to the west." It's about appropriating a huge percentage of the PROFITS that come from oil in other nations. Iran and Iraq had nationalized their oil. Libya did the same thing. For this reason, they were considered enemies. On the other hand, the Gulf monarchies -- Saudi Arabia, Oman, Kuwait, UAE ... -- have traditionally shared their oil revenues with the large Western Oil Transnational Corporations. Add another fact: If the Gulf monarchs were ever deposed, if genuine democracy were ever established in these states, the people would undoubtedly vote to nationalize and keep ALL THE PROFITS that come from their own oil. This is another reason the US government is despised by "the Arab street." ]

We then helped Saddam Hussein in the war against Iran. Then we turned on Saddam and attacked when he threatens the flow oil by invading Kuwait.

[I must repeat and emphasize this point, which is often misunderstood. It is NOT the flow of oil that was threatened. All oil states want to sell their oil to the West. It is Western control of the OIL PROFITS that was threatened. Kuwait shared it's oil profits with transnational oil corporations. Iraq did not. ]

Tens years later we attacked Iraq again because they had WMDs which turned out to be bogus. During the war we killed over 100,000 civilians and embarrass ourselves with the Abhu Ghraib prison scandal and the lack of evidence of WMDs.

[Let's not forget, that well over one and a half million Iraqis were killed by the sanctions regime, more than half of them children, and that Sec of State, M. Albright admitted this publicly, and said it was worthwhile considering the alternative.]


In Afghanistan, we supported the Afghans against Russia to prevent Russian from controlling a proposed oil pipeline across Afghanistan.

[I am not sure that is accurate. Does anyone have any info on that]?

Although the major reason for the Russian military action was to support the communist government against the Mujahideen, the USSR believed a pipeline from the Caspian Sea across Afghanistan to Pakistan would be of strategic importance. Plans for this project started in the early 70's but construction was never started till 1995. I could not find any links to as to how it related to the war, but I just remember reading about it during the war.
Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When I wrote about keeping the oil flowing to the west, I meant the oil and the profits from the oil. When I refer to American foreign policy I mean not just the policy itself but all the actions that flow from that policy.