and they said it could never happen to them

[DKSuddeth]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/486354.cms

Now, Nasdaq live from Bangalore
CHIDANAND RAJGHATTA


WASHINGTON: Reporting on the outsourcing issue may never be the same again. The news agency Reuters has announced that it will be hiring six reporters in Bangalore.


No news here – except the reporters sitting in Bangalore will be covering American companies and financial markets.


The announcement has caused a stir in the news world. It's one thing to have India answer Britrail phone calls and troubleshoot for Dell, but what happens when journalists who report on the subject feel their own jobs are threatened?


"And here I'd been telling people so lightheartedly, 'Well, at least they can't outsource my job.' Stupid me," says Aliza Earnshaw, a reporter with the Portland Business Journal, who thinks moving to India may now be an option.


International media organisations such as Reuters and Associated Press routinely transfer employees across the world. Bureaux are often a mix of local and trans-national employees.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Yes. This will certainly heighten the liberal media bias and hasten the ETA of the world communist revolution.

"It's wrong to employ brown people when white people want more money."

 

[DKSuddeth]

RWA, just what is your job that is so safe from outsourcing? You obviously are for slave wages and labor so what is it?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
RWA, just what is your job that is so safe from outsourcing? You obviously are for slave wages and labor so what is it?

It's not safe. I am/was a java programmer. No job is safe. The only safe job is equity partner. I'd suggest you form a corporation and profit yourself from all the various cheap resources the world has to offer.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
RWA, just what is your job that is so safe from outsourcing? You obviously are for slave wages and labor so what is it?

Not that this question was directed toward me, but I must insert myself here. Your implication is that someone who isn't mouthing off every second about jobs being lost overseas is somehow "for slave wages and labor" is so infuriating. And I, for one of a number of others, am sick of hearing you complain about the economy and US corporations all because you are working at a job that you feel is either beneath you or not paying you enough. If you feel so damn strongly about it, quit your job for a higher paying one. Relocate to a more profitable location. Work in a different field. Engage yourself in education or training to find another job.

Just stop blaming the corporations who, just as you are free to go elsewhere for work, are just as free to go elsewhere for employees or the rest of the citizenry of the united states who believe in capitalism and free trade.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Your implication is that someone who isn't mouthing off every second about jobs being lost overseas is somehow "for slave wages and labor" is so infuriating.

I've NEVER implied that. You've jumped to that conclusion yourself. I have simply stated time and again MY disgust with it. When RWA, or others, banner wave for the corporations over the people then I have issue because america is the people, NOT the corporations. have you forgotten that or have you been brainwashed to believe otherwise?

And I, for one of a number of others, am sick of hearing you complain about the economy and US corporations all because you are working at a job that you feel is either beneath you or not paying you enough.

one, I don't care if you're sick of hearing me complain or not.
two, the economy does suck. face it, its reality.
three, out of all the discussions that we've had on this board, You of all people, should know what its like to be working 'beneath' your level and I would expect a better response than the one that I got.

If you feel so damn strongly about it, quit your job for a higher paying one.

where? where the hell are they? open your damn eyes and see that your beloved corporations are moving them to cheaper places, NOT because they are better over there, simply because they are cheaper. I've displayed a handful of articles showing how corporations would rather deal with setbacks and shifting deadlines to keep cheap labor than they would to pay someone a higher wage in this country to get it done right the first time.

Work in a different field. Engage yourself in education or training to find another job.

you cannot be that stupid. you know alot of my situation with my personal life. knowing that, you tell me how the hell i'm supposed to better educate myself, as if I wasn't high tech enough as it is, with the measly ass wages that most tech companies are now paying?

Just stop blaming the corporations who, just as you are free to go elsewhere for work, are just as free to go elsewhere for employees or the rest of the citizenry of the united states who believe in capitalism and free trade.

tell you what, you apply for a tech job with an indian company, or russian or chinese. how many times would you have to hear that they don't hire americans before you got fed up with it?

Something that you, and a number of others on this board, seem to forget is that these corporations have no obstacle finding cheap labour around the world, but YOU would have a hard time finding work around the world. can you jump on a plane to india for an interview? That answer would be no.


Finally, whats happening in this 'global economy' isn't free trade and our economy isn't dependent upon the stock market as some of you feel it is. Its based on you, me, your neighbor, and my neighbor and whether we are working or not.

you don't want to hear me bitch about the economy any more? fine, don't read my damn posts. move on with your little life in ignorance.

 

[Moi]

You know, DK, the only reply to your post can be that you are a complete fraud. You make such global comments about the economy but what you are really interested in is your own material possessions. Your situation regarding the economy and employment is one of your own making. You chose not to pursue higher education and get a degree, yet you now lament your fate. You chose to live where you do and now claim that the job prospects are too slim. You chose to work for the wages you get yet complain that you can't make a living. Yada Yada Yada

Quite the contrary to your statement that you didn't imply that those of us who aren't protesting overseas job loss are for slave labor, you clearly wrote it: “You obviously are for slave wages and labor so what is it?” Ring a friggen bell??? You said it, I didn’t imagine it.

You can sit there and argue about the economy all you want, but whether the economy was good, bad or indifferent there are numerous causes as to its status and everyone in this country is responsible for it. Corporations, like any citizen in this country, are free to follow the path of least resistance. Have you ever quit a job for one with better wages, benefits, work hours? Or perhaps quit one so that you could get another which afforded you more responsibility and the advantages of learning or advancement? Would you leave the job you have now if your dream job opened up and you were first in line for it? Gee, let's guess...you would do what was better for you?

If you are so all fired set on getting corporations to employ more americans and stopping them from going overseas for labor, I suggest that you educate yourself on what causes them to do so. Ludicrously high wages, income and employment taxes, health insurance costs, lawsuits, business insurance, fraud, etc. are all reasons for corporations to have much higher cost of doing business here in the US. The fact that these things are out of control and out of proportion are directly related to corporations going overseas. Why don't you try advocating for laws to alleviate some of that burden rather than attacking those who are employing people who need jobs regardless of where they live.

No one on this board is suggesting that slave labor is a preferable system. However, again, instead of trying to fix the system, you just bellyache about how poor you are and how difficult you have it. The wages that Nike, Levi's, etc. pay overseas may not be the equivalent of what they'd pay here, but the people who receive them are happy to do so. Are you so selfish that you honestly believe that people don't deserve to work just because they weren't born here and/or live here? Why does a corporation owe the US anything? There are no walls at our border. Just as immigrants come here for money, corporations should be free to leave because of money. And the people that benefit from the corporations shouldn’t be judged on your standards of "slave" wages/labor. To them, they are working and earning a living- not everyone needs the same standard of living as we expect here in the US.

Furthermore, I’m not blind to the economy but I think you are. If you'd actually look at the underlying facts of the economic indicators rather than judging the overall economy by your current needs, you'd see that they indicate that we are in a correction after almost a decade. The economy during the 1990’s could not be sustained. Much of this is due to the fraud perpetrated by large corporations, much of it also has to do with the ridiculously high burden placed on corporations as stated above, much of it also has to do with the strike it rich mentality of the tech boom. People no longer expect and are willing to accept sustained, true monetary preservation- which is what the economy has historically provided- they wanted to get rich quick. There is no economy which can sustain “growth” of 1000 times earnings. The economy we have now is just fine in the sense that the growth we are seeing is sustainable and rational. There isn’t a false foundation and expectations are beginning to reset themselves to sustainable levels.

And, no, I don't believe the economy sucks. Far from it. This economy supports billions of people. Perhaps you don’t have all the material possessions you want, but you have what you need. You are still alive, have the freedom to choose your job, where you live and what you do all day and have the benefit of medical care. In this country even with our economy, you will not starve.

And, yes, I do understand being unemployed. I do understand not having everything I always wanted. What I don’t understand, and never will, is the need for people to blame others for, or look to others for a solution to, their problems. You believe that because your situation is not what you want, that somehow everyone should be on your complaint bandwagon and blame the government or corporations. Sorry. You bear the primary responsibility for your fate. The federal government and corporations didn’t tell you not to get an education that would lead to the economic path you want; they didn’t cause your wife’s illness; and, they didn’t force you to live where you do.

 

[jimnyc]

 

[DKSuddeth]

You make such global comments about the economy but what you are really interested in is your own material possessions.

so now i'm the only one?

Your situation regarding the economy and employment is one of your own making.

so I created the H1B and L1 visa that changed the IT service sector? I had no idea I was so damn powerful

You chose not to pursue higher education and get a degree, yet you now lament your fate.

I chose nothing of the sort. If one is limited because of finances is that their fault? I don't make enough to send myself to school but I make too much to get any assistance, does that ring a bell? The only thing I lament is not raising my voice earlier.

You chose to live where you do and now claim that the job prospects are too slim.

If I were the only one affected by this I would say you're right, however, since the IT unemployment rate here in the dallas area is around 12% right now I'd say you're not only wrong, but your stupidly wrong. If you'd have the sense to look at the entire country as a whole for the IT field you'd see that there are about 3 cities whose unemployment rate in the IT sector is less than 10%. That many hundreds of thousands made bad choices? Hardly, thats simply a copout bullshit explanation you give when you have no damn answer to the question.

Quite the contrary to your statement that you didn't imply that those of us who aren't protesting overseas job loss are for slave labor, you clearly wrote it: “You obviously are for slave wages and labor so what is it?” Ring a friggen bell??? You said it, I didn’t imagine it.

No, you didn't imagine it. What you DID imagine is that I said it to everyone in that blanket statement, when in fact, it was a statement delivered to RWA as an individual. If, however, you choose to believe in the same corporatist ideologies that he does, then yes, its intended for you as well. If you aren't protesting the IT job losses to offshoring it could simply mean that your field, like manufacturing years ago, has not been affected yet so you see no reason to bitch. Relax, your time is coming.

You can sit there and argue about the economy all you want, but whether the economy was good, bad or indifferent there are numerous causes as to its status and everyone in this country is responsible for it.

If everyone is responsible for it then why aren't YOU trying to help fix it?

Have you ever quit a job for one with better wages, benefits, work hours? Or perhaps quit one so that you could get another which afforded you more responsibility and the advantages of learning or advancement? Would you leave the job you have now if your dream job opened up and you were first in line for it? Gee, let's guess...you would do what was better for you?

I can honestly say that I have not done this WITHOUT providing the company I was with an opportunity to match the pay, training, and responsibilities that the other company was offering. A position that has landed me in hot water with the wife more than once.

If you are so all fired set on getting corporations to employ more americans and stopping them from going overseas for labor, I suggest that you educate yourself on what causes them to do so. Ludicrously high wages, income and employment taxes, health insurance costs, lawsuits, business insurance, fraud, etc. are all reasons for corporations to have much higher cost of doing business here in the US. The fact that these things are out of control and out of proportion are directly related to corporations going overseas. Why don't you try advocating for laws to alleviate some of that burden rather than attacking those who are employing people who need jobs regardless of where they live.

On some of these points I agree with you. CEO's making hundreds of millions whether a company fails or succeeds is part of that 'ludicrously high wage' as well. The fresh out of MCSD school programmer has no business making over 100k and although I bitch about that as well, my voice alone carries little weight. I don't believe employers should pay for health insurance costs, I also believe that if they didn't then health insurance would be cheaper by the insurance companies not expecting that windfall and having to compete with individuals for business. Lawsuits are another matter, yes there are some frivolous lawsuits in the courts and thats what we need to address but we should not allow corporations to slide along with no liability whatsoever and thats exactly what your current pro-business republican party is legislating on a weekly basis. I used to write Pete Sessions on a weekly basis about the things I think could make the burden on corps and workers easier but I guess that fell on deaf ears to a congressman who was working for corporate welfare and who is nothing more than a leadership loyalist. Thats why Sessions has lost my vote and I'll be checking Martin Frost this upcoming election.

No one on this board is suggesting that slave labor is a preferable system. However, again, instead of trying to fix the system, you just bellyache about how poor you are and how difficult you have it. The wages that Nike, Levi's, etc. pay overseas may not be the equivalent of what they'd pay here, but the people who receive them are happy to do so. Are you so selfish that you honestly believe that people don't deserve to work just because they weren't born here and/or live here? Why does a corporation owe the US anything? There are no walls at our border. Just as immigrants come here for money, corporations should be free to leave because of money. And the people that benefit from the corporations shouldn’t be judged on your standards of "slave" wages/labor. To them, they are working and earning a living- not everyone needs the same standard of living as we expect here in the US.

First off, the people in India, Pakistan, Russia, and China are not my concern, as they are not yours as you have mentioned many times. My concern is the american people and myself. I have consistently accepted less than the average salary for a position because I KNEW that not having certifications would prevent me from doing so. Does that mean I don't work any harder or smarter? NO, it does not, but I didn't bust my ass learning everything I could in IT for the last 13 years, ON MY OWN, to be denied the opportunity because the pro-business conservatives feel I'm a burden to the corporations. Capitalism is supposed to be based on the supply and demand scenario, right? Salaries in the IT field got so high because they were in demand. Theres NO fairness by the government allowing corporations to go global without demanding that other countries allow the same in free trade and employment. As I said earlier, try and apply for a job in India, see what they say and you tell me then if its fair trade or not. Second, I'm not basing 'slave wages' on another countries cost of living, I'm basing it on the cost of living in America. If a corporation wants to go to India for 4 people to do my job at the same price, fine, but I would EXPECT my government to ensure that that company is not rewarded for delisting an american worker. That is why Bush will not be re-elected, because of jobs.

And, no, I don't believe the economy sucks. Far from it. This economy supports billions of people. Perhaps you don’t have all the material possessions you want, but you have what you need. You are still alive, have the freedom to choose your job, where you live and what you do all day and have the benefit of medical care. In this country even with our economy, you will not starve.

Material possessions? I don't give a fuck about material possessions, moi, I would just like to be able to visit a doctor from time to time without worrying about being able to feed my wife and kids if I do. At this current time, I can't do that. Hell, I don't even have a home of my own. Were it not for the generosity of a friend, My family would be living with my In laws. Would you like to tell me how that means I have everything I need? My wifes medications alone take 25% of my salary. How can you justify corporate tax breaks, corporate bonuse incentives, and legislation that removes liability from a corporation for any wrongdoing that may occur when we have people that can't feed their families on their own?

You bear the primary responsibility for your fate. The federal government and corporations didn’t tell you not to get an education that would lead to the economic path you want; they didn’t cause your wife’s illness; and, they didn’t force you to live where you do.

au contraire, again, I'm responsible for corporations relocating work to India? (or any other country you choose). As long as people like you continue to support worthless trends to dictate success then the longer we will be in a perpetual slide to division and strife. I may not have a college degree in my hand, does that mean I am not as intelligent or capable? No, hardly. My wifes Illness? Nobody caused it, its an autoimmune disorder called Systemic Lupus. Nobody caused it and it wasn't a result of any choices she or I made. Does that mean that we should toss the sick and infirm out with the bathwater? You seem to think we should by your callous attitude towards people and their choices but don't care to deliberate whether its the result of choices or not. As for where I live, look at the IT employment stats again, hell, look at any stat for any job sector. See if you can figure out the trend and why its happening. When you do, get back to me. Otherwise, stop being part of the problem and become part of the solution.

Jim, WTF are you clapping for? I didn't see a damn thing in her post worth clapping for other than MAYBE changing the unfairness in how corporations are handled by regulations. Its too bad she couldn't apply that to all parties involved instead of just 'business'.

 

[eric]

The whinning is really getting sickening !

If half the energy was used being creative instead of whinning all the time there would be no need for it !!

Really if you think you are going to legislate away the problem you are dead wrong.

 

[jimnyc]

My apologies to DK. I perceived your post as being a little personal with the "stupidly wrong" comment. Moi told me that she didn't see that as a personal attack. I was wrong for lashing out at you so quickly.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Really if you think you are going to legislate away the problem you are dead wrong.

Isn't that whats happening now? Except it is for the corporations benefit?

Seriously, you all think I'm whining, fine. So be it. I have the right to, especially considering the mitigating circumstances. Whether you feel that way or not, Personal responsibility has its limits. A person can make the best choices in life that he has the ability to and things can still not work out, is that then his fault still?

Jim,

accepted, no problem. It happens.

 

[Moi]

I chose nothing of the sort. If one is limited because of finances is that their fault? I don't make enough to send myself to school but I make too much to get any assistance, does that ring a bell? The only thing I lament is not raising my voice earlier.

First of all, from your prior posts, it seems very clear to me that you do not believe in college education at all (in fact, several prior posts clearly ridiculed employers who sought people with college degrees) so why would you now claim that you wanted one but couldn’t afford it? Secondly, I find it very difficult to believe that you could not afford a decent college. There is not a doubt in my mind that had you desired one you could have gotten one. You could have worked one, two or three jobs. You could have joined the military and taken advantage of their educational programs. You could have gone to school at night …these are all viable options for those too poor to pay cash and too rich to afford assistance. Your claim to have been too poor is completely unpersuasive.


If I were the only one affected by this I would say you're right, however, since the IT unemployment rate here in the dallas area is around 12% right now I'd say you're not only wrong, but your stupidly wrong. If you'd have the sense to look at the entire country as a whole for the IT field you'd see that there are about 3 cities whose unemployment rate in the IT sector is less than 10%. That many hundreds of thousands made bad choices? Hardly, thats simply a copout bullshit explanation you give when you have no damn answer to the question.

Stupid I may be (and, no, I didn't get offended about your use of the word. However, I would caution that just because I don't agree with your viewpoint doesn't give you the moral and intellectual high ground here. Use of these types of names only invites the same in return). However, I am not about to stay in a location or industry which could not support my living needs.

No, you didn't imagine it. What you DID imagine is that I said it to everyone in that blanket statement, when in fact, it was a statement delivered to RWA as an individual. If, however, you choose to believe in the same corporatist ideologies that he does, then yes, its intended for you as well. If you aren't protesting the IT job losses to offshoring it could simply mean that your field, like manufacturing years ago, has not been affected yet so you see no reason to bitch. Relax, your time is coming.

I clearly indicated that I was aware that the post was not directed at me. However, there are all sorts of things that one can take offense to and defend even if it doesn’t affect them personally. The fact remains that because I believe corporations have the right to employ whom they wish does not mean that I am an advocate of slavery, unfair wages or anti-american. And, I seriously doubt that my reaction to any type of diminution of my employment sector would cause me to blame corporations and/or the government or my fellow citizens. I would adapt- as I have many times over the years.



If everyone is responsible for it then why aren't YOU trying to help fix it?

What makes you think that I am not? You have no knowledge of which you speak.

I can honestly say that I have not done this WITHOUT providing the company I was with an opportunity to match the pay, training, and responsibilities that the other company was offering. A position that has landed me in hot water with the wife more than once.

Providing them an opportunity to match your selfish needs? The corporations in this country have been quite up-front about the ramifications of wages regulations, unions, benefits, family leave, business taxes, income taxes, etc. they indicate that they will react accordingly. This did not happen in a vacuum. Every single time a liberal law has been passed the threat was clearly given.

On some of these points I agree with you. CEO's making hundreds of millions whether a company fails or succeeds is part of that 'ludicrously high wage' as well. The fresh out of MCSD school programmer has no business making over 100k and although I bitch about that as well, my voice alone carries little weight. I don't believe employers should pay for health insurance costs, I also believe that if they didn't then health insurance would be cheaper by the insurance companies not expecting that windfall and having to compete with individuals for business. Lawsuits are another matter, yes there are some frivolous lawsuits in the courts and thats what we need to address but we should not allow corporations to slide along with no liability whatsoever and thats exactly what your current pro-business republican party is legislating on a weekly basis.

Bush is the only president to have enacted during his tenure such a set of strict penalties for corporate fraud. So I am not sure where you are getting your information from.

I used to write Pete Sessions on a weekly basis about the things I think could make the burden on corps and workers easier but I guess that fell on deaf ears to a congressman who was working for corporate welfare and who is nothing more than a leadership loyalist. Thats why Sessions has lost my vote and I'll be checking Martin Frost this upcoming election.

I don’t really know much about Frost so I cannot comment. But kudos for voting!

First off, the people in India, Pakistan, Russia, and China are not my concern, as they are not yours as you have mentioned many times.

I do not feel that I owe them anything, but I also don’t believe that I am free to take from them either. If a corporation wants to go there and employ them, well, hey, more power to them.

My concern is the american people and myself. I have consistently accepted less than the average salary for a position because I KNEW that not having certifications would prevent me from doing so. Does that mean I don't work any harder or smarter? NO, it does not, but I didn't bust my ass learning everything I could in IT for the last 13 years, ON MY OWN, to be denied the opportunity because the pro-business conservatives feel I'm a burden to the corporations. Capitalism is supposed to be based on the supply and demand scenario, right? Salaries in the IT field got so high because they were in demand. Theres NO fairness by the government allowing corporations to go global without demanding that other countries allow the same in free trade and employment.

I disagree. I think that whatever makes corporations better is what they will do. Just as you can’t say that it should be illegal for the workers to have exploited the companies in the salary issue, it is clearly just as acceptable to allow the corporations to exploit cost savings where they can. This is not a socialist or communist country that we live in. Thank goodness.

As I said earlier, try and apply for a job in India, see what they say and you tell me then if its fair trade or not. Second, I'm not basing 'slave wages' on another countries cost of living, I'm basing it on the cost of living in America. If a corporation wants to go to India for 4 people to do my job at the same price, fine, but I would EXPECT my government to ensure that that company is not rewarded for delisting an american worker. That is why Bush will not be re-elected, because of jobs.

I have a feeling that he will be re-elected although not because of or in spite of this issue. Furthermore, corporations are not rewarded for going overseas. They merely recognize that it’s cost effective for doing so. I also disagree that the government alone bears the burden of ensuring corporations stay here. However, I also think that they do enact legislation so they will. There are many tax savings for corporations here in the US. There are all sorts of programs for tax credits and other benefits for businesses continuing to do business in this country.


Material possessions? I don't give a fuck about material possessions, moi, I would just like to be able to visit a doctor from time to time without worrying about being able to feed my wife and kids if I do.

Once again, I am sure that the Indians and Pakistani’s who are benefiting from the work they are getting wish only the same thing- to be able to eat and live.

At this current time, I can't do that. Hell, I don't even have a home of my own. Were it not for the generosity of a friend, My family would be living with my In laws. Would you like to tell me how that means I have everything I need? My wifes medications alone take 25% of my salary.

Once again, I fail to see how the corporations or government of the United States bears any responsibility for ensuring that you have a house and medical treatment for your wife. It doesn’t make sense. We are not a socialist or communist country. There is no, to each according to needs here. I hope there never will be. You may think it’s callous but when people in this country expect to have a house of their own and all their medical needs cared for, it smacks of communism to me.

How can you justify corporate tax breaks, corporate bonuse incentives, and legislation that removes liability from a corporation for any wrongdoing that may occur when we have people that can't feed their families on their own?

First of all, this thread wasn’t about those things so you don’t know I justify them. However, now that you asked: tax breaks benefit more than just you as an individual. They are necessary and fair to ensure that the majority of the workers see benefit. I also think that most corporate tax breaks make sense…if a corporations profits are taxed, why should they also be taxed to the individual? Doesn’t make sense. If the corporations agree to make improvements that benefit a community (i.e., create roads, easements, water lines, sewer lines, etc.) that deserves a quid pro quo from the community. As for corporate bonus programs…that’s up to the corporation. The fact that they vote themselves bonuses is their business. If the chairman of GE makes millions…I have to think that his company is also making millions; hence the employees are better off. However, if the company isn’t performing than the board of directors should be taking control. It’s not a matter for the government. Lastly, I know of very few instances where companies are not responsible for their actions entirely. Were there to be legislation proposed to absolve corporations of any liability whatsoever, I’d oppose it.

au contraire, again, I'm responsible for corporations relocating work to India? (or any other country you choose). As long as people like you continue to support worthless trends to dictate success then the longer we will be in a perpetual slide to division and strife.

I have no idea what you mean. I support nothing but a free employment society. I want to be able to choose to work or not and I agree to give my employer the same right. That’s all.

I may not have a college degree in my hand, does that mean I am not as intelligent or capable?

No, never said it did. Just said that you followed a path of your own choosing and you are now trying to make it seem like the corporations and government are responsible to you to get you out of it.

My wifes Illness? Nobody caused it, its an autoimmune disorder called Systemic Lupus. Nobody caused it and it wasn't a result of any choices she or I made. Does that mean that we should toss the sick and infirm out with the bathwater?

Never said that. Don’t think that. But again, I don’t think it is the government’s fault that your wife has an illness nor do I think that a corporations should have to employ you for that reason. If you believe in God, I suggest you sue him. Otherwise, what difference does it make that you have medical bills when a corporation has to decide what’s best for them?

You seem to think we should by your callous attitude towards people and their choices but don't care to deliberate whether its the result of choices or not. As for where I live, look at the IT employment stats again, hell, look at any stat for any job sector. See if you can figure out the trend and why its happening. When you do, get back to me. Otherwise, stop being part of the problem and become part of the solution.

Again, as you have no idea what I do and don’t do you have no basis for your assertion that I am either part of the problem or failing to serve to solve it. As for your choices, yes, they are yours. The IT sector may suck but I know for a fact that health care does not. I know for a fact that construction is booming. I know that the insurance industry is also doing well. I know that there are many cities in which IT is pretty good industry. There are over 1,000 jobs on hot jobs alone for IT around the country. Why so unwilling to admit that your choices have led you down a path that didn’t bear fruit or take responsibility that, although, you may like being in IT and living where you live, you need a change?

Jim, WTF are you clapping for? I didn't see a damn thing in her post worth clapping for other than MAYBE changing the unfairness in how corporations are handled by regulations. Its too bad she couldn't apply that to all parties involved instead of just 'business'.

Oh, again, I do apply it to all. If a corporation lied to you about your wages or unfairly exploited laws, I would be defending you. That’s not the case here. You want something from them for nothing in return. You want them to be restricted from going elsewhere yet you aren’t willing to change your career or move in order to ensure your family’ best economic circumstances.

 

[DKSuddeth]

First of all, from your prior posts, it seems very clear to me that you do not believe in college education at all (in fact, several prior posts clearly ridiculed employers who sought people with college degrees) so why would you now claim that you wanted one but couldn’t afford it? Secondly, I find it very difficult to believe that you could not afford a decent college. There is not a doubt in my mind that had you desired one you could have gotten one. You could have worked one, two or three jobs. You could have joined the military and taken advantage of their educational programs. You could have gone to school at night …these are all viable options for those too poor to pay cash and too rich to afford assistance. Your claim to have been too poor is completely unpersuasive.

uh, ok. be unpersuaded then. not my problem.

Stupid I may be (and, no, I didn't get offended about your use of the word. However, I would caution that just because I don't agree with your viewpoint doesn't give you the moral and intellectual high ground here. Use of these types of names only invites the same in return). However, I am not about to stay in a location or industry which could not support my living needs.

I'm glad offense wasn't taken for there surely wasn't any meant.

lets see, my wifes divorce settlement has the stipulation that she can't remove her kids from the DFW area. So my choices are to stay, commute (which i've done for some jobs), live apart from my ill wife who needs lots of help, or divorce. what say you?

What makes you think that I am not? You have no knowledge of which you speak.

then by all means, speak it. Tell me what it is you're doing to try to fix it? Until you explain what it is I am forced to believe you are doing nothing.

Providing them an opportunity to match your selfish needs?

Isn't that what you like to call capitalism? I'm not completely obtuse about it though, If the company obviously can't match salary I'll consider other benefits. Is that wrong? I digress though, you clearly are not understanding that the corporations are playing with all the high cards and we are not. My original issue was that we, meaning you and I, are unable to compete on a global scale while the corporations can. We now, all of us, must let the rest of the world catch up to us. In doing so, all of our lifestyles will change and certainly not for the better.

Bush is the only president to have enacted during his tenure such a set of strict penalties for corporate fraud. So I am not sure where you are getting your information from.

I'll be more specific then. relieving corporations from liabilities that inflict harm upon our environment or our persons is wrong. Yes, Bush enacted HUGE changes for the better when it came to corporate fraud when it directly affected the investors and stock market. That is a good thing. The bad thing is capping malpractice type suits instead of stopping the frivolous litigations.

I do not feel that I owe them anything, but I also don’t believe that I am free to take from them either. If a corporation wants to go there and employ them, well, hey, more power to them.

Thats fine with me as well, so long as their business is suitably penalized for harming the US economy on a worker level.

I disagree. I think that whatever makes corporations better is what they will do. Just as you can’t say that it should be illegal for the workers to have exploited the companies in the salary issue, it is clearly just as acceptable to allow the corporations to exploit cost savings where they can. This is not a socialist or communist country that we live in. Thank goodness.

Disagree all you'd like, you're still wrong because we cannot compete on a global scale. Let me repeat that, we cannot compete on a global scale. To compete on a global scale is to basically start over and lose everything. Those that say we can are only kidding themselves.

Once again, I fail to see how the corporations or government of the United States bears any responsibility for ensuring that you have a house and medical treatment for your wife. It doesn’t make sense. We are not a socialist or communist country. There is no, to each according to needs here. I hope there never will be. You may think it’s callous but when people in this country expect to have a house of their own and all their medical needs cared for, it smacks of communism to me.

I'll be more specific with this one as well. The Gov does not have a responsibility to provide me with a home, but they DO have the responsibility to provide me with a fair shot at one, thus far all they have done is allow it to be taken away.

But again, I don’t think it is the government’s fault that your wife has an illness nor do I think that a corporations should have to employ you for that reason. If you believe in God, I suggest you sue him. Otherwise, what difference does it make that you have medical bills when a corporation has to decide what’s best for them?

This is where you and I will simply agree to disagree. I hope my side wins. It IS the governments responsibility to ensure that I, as one of its citizens, has the capability to either get care for her on my own, or to help provide care for her. Thats part of the reason we made a government and its programs. To help care for its citizens when needed. Thats not socialism, thats compassion.
And I would sue god if I thought he gave a rats ass or had money.

The IT sector may suck but I know for a fact that health care does not. I know for a fact that construction is booming. I know that the insurance industry is also doing well. I know that there are many cities in which IT is pretty good industry. There are over 1,000 jobs on hot jobs alone for IT around the country. Why so unwilling to admit that your choices have led you down a path that didn’t bear fruit or take responsibility that, although, you may like being in IT and living where you live, you need a change?

Since I didn't get a degree in 'I know everything', I can't do everything. The fact that you see 1000 jobs on hotjobs means nothing to me as having worked with a dozen recruiters on a personal level I can tell you that 80% of those listings are nothing more than a way to get resumes' submitted. Also, how good can the IT industry be in a city that is hiring 300 IT people at half the wage that it pays in my area? or that it payed a year ago? As for my choices leading me down a path yadda yadda yadda, it seems to me that there were alot of IT people making lots of money 3 years ago, but the IT field was subverted by the industry and the government to allow lower wage workers. In other words, the corporations got tired of dealing with the high demand/low supply and paid for laws to bring the advantage to them. How is that my responsibility?

 

[eric]

Better get used to it. It's a brave new world !

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
A person can make the best choices in life that he has the ability to and things can still not work out, is that then his fault still?

Life isn't fair and no one pretends it is. However, no where in any of your posts are you willing to concede that you bear ANY responsibility for your situation or future and you have clearly blamed the government and corporate america and other citizens. People in every socio-economic bracket have been able to earn an education and change careers along the way.

And while it may not be entirely your fault (and by saying that you made choices which brought you to where you are, I didn't mean you deserved it only that your decisons played a part) that you are not where you wish to be economically, it is NOT the fault of the corporations or the government either.

As for your most recent post, the debate ends here. It is quite impossible to discuss economic policy with someone who actually believes his wife's divorce papers should have any bearing on such decisions.

Your attitude and complaining can seen by anyone with a brain for what it is, a belief in entitlement. You think you are entitled to a certain standard of living and that everyone in the world has to contribute to it. Luckily, those in power just don't believe that.

 

[DKSuddeth]

However, no where in any of your posts are you willing to concede that you bear ANY responsibility for your situation or future and you have clearly blamed the government and corporate america and other citizens.

I don't remember blaming you, however, since you feel that the government and corporations should be blameless about it, fine. I accept full responsibility for where I'm at. does that make you feel better now?

People in every socio-economic bracket have been able to earn an education and change careers along the way.

whats the success rate for that? btw, why don't we just make it a part of US policy now that every individual must make career changes every ten years, just to keep up. whats your next career choice?

Your attitude and complaining can seen by anyone with a brain for what it is, a belief in entitlement. You think you are entitled to a certain standard of living and that everyone in the world has to contribute to it. Luckily, those in power just don't believe that.

The only thing I think I'm entitled to is a fair shot. Is that not what its all about?

The impossible thing is getting you and yours to think of anything other than whats stuck in your stagnant minds of your own 'right and wrong'.

edited earlier content due to bad anger management

 

[Moi]

I’ve been thinking quite a bit since yesterday about your challenge that I do something about the economy. Well, I’ve come up with the following ways I make a difference. So, thanks for asking a compelling question- my commitment is more resolute, my goals more concrete and my conscience is clear.

1. By patronizing small merchants I am sending a message to large corporations that cost is not the primary factor determining my purchases. Do I pay more by buying toys at the local family owned shop? Yes. Does my son get as many toys as his friends? No. But, he does get enough toys to have active, creative play and I get the satisfaction of spending my money wisely and keeping a worthwhile business in operation.

2. I saved for years to be able to renovate my bathroom. Part of the reason that it took so long is because I purchased the materials at local family owned fixture and hardware stores. Once again, I paid slightly more but my message is that stores like Home Depot needn’t worry about making things cheaply…I prefer to spend my money wisely even if it costs more.

3. I buy well-made cars and keep them until they are no longer economically or environmentally feasible. I take public transportation. I walk to/from the train station. All of these efforts are directed toward decreasing our reliance on fossil fuels (and thus, other countries).

4. I trim waste and recycle- even my old car was given away for someone else to use. Again, decreasing dependence on the raw materials and fossil fuels required for production.

5. I don’t purchase cheaply made garments in every fad style that comes about. I purchase quality, timeless pieces eliminating the need for companies to make manufacturing decisions based on the cheapest labor. I’ll pay more for merchandise - even if it means fewer shoes, pants, purses, etc.

6. I oppose illegal immigration, vote for like-minded officials and work for the enactment of laws meant to curtail and make it less profitable.

7. I use my money as a tool to send a message to corporations.

8. I advocate for laws that will change and benefit my family, community, country and world.

9. I vote.

10. I seek no blame nor painless solutions to our problems.

11. I rise each day with these goals in mind and look for new ways to make a difference.

12. I teach my son the same values.

P.S. I tip my hat to your editing comment! Won't mind if I use it myself sometime do you?

 

[DKSuddeth]

1-12 - I salute you. All very good methods.

you're welcome to use it as much as needed, or just for the hell of it