And the other shoe drops; No more illegal aliens

[Sinatra]

There is nothing dishonest about not covering illegals. If they are undocumented and have no tax id/SS there is no way to cover them. If they do have a valid tax id/SS then they are paying in. With about 2/3's currently paying in, it makes sense to get the other 1/3 paying in too. It's cheaper and more beneficial than sending them home. If you think you can get rid of them, spell it out for us and tell us what it is going to cost to round them up and ship them home.

The illegals argument only serves as a scapegoat. They are too small in numbers to account for the problems in the system. There are larger fish to fry.

You are aware of the law passed under Clinton regarding this very matter, yes?

If not, I suggest you look it up.

I also suggest you actually read the links provided in full - they will more than answer the question of numbers.

The illegals is a valid concern. Is it THE concern regarding health care reform? No, but certainly a component that should be dealt with honestly. At present, the president has been among the most dishonest in his commentary on the subject, and that does a terrible disservice to the discourse...

I read the links.

The illegals ARE NOT going anywhere. They might leave on their own but we DO NOT, WILL NOT and CAN NOT round up and deport 12 million people from the country to points all across the globe. We can't even seem to figure out what to do with a couple hundred detainees and you think we can get rid of 12 million people?

Tell us your solution. Stop finger pointing and scape goating and tell us what your solution is.

Are we making it easier for them to remain in this country - or more difficult?

Second, if healthcare is extended to illegals, which currently there is no enforcement protections from stopping that from happening, why wouldn't millions more come across the border?

I agree the current 12-15 million illegals is a confounding issue - but when the President of the United States promises that he will simply legalize them so they can gain access to health care, does that not simply encourage millions more to enter the country?

If the rule of law does not apply to immigration, why should we apply it to anything else?

Since when does capitulation signal sound policy?

 

[Ame®icano]

You can make plenty of valid arguments against social programs, that is a matter of opinion. The crapola about immigrants is just crapola. They are an easy scapegoat.

You can present all the estimates and columnist opinions you want. They are just opinions. The hard facts show us otherwise. These people are paying in money that they can not claim.

What you presented are also estimates, you haven't presented any official data.

Of course, you are saying that official data is hard to collect, and... you ensuring us that most of illegals pay taxes. Where is the hard fact? The link to Reason Foundation?

Here is the hard fact for you. Illegal immigrants are here illegally. As much I am concerned, they are not required to pay taxes and they shouldn't pay any. Do you know why? Because they shouldn't be in this country at all. My opinion about illegals might sound extreme, but there are millions that came to this country legally and millions waiting to enter. Those haven't broke any law, and most likely never will.

Btw, so you think that is really hard to find out is social security number valid or not?

 

[Ame®icano]

You can make plenty of valid arguments against social programs, that is a matter of opinion. The crapola about immigrants is just crapola. They are an easy scapegoat.

You can present all the estimates and columnist opinions you want. They are just opinions. The hard facts show us otherwise. These people are paying in money that they can not claim.

While true they pay in - they also take more out from the system. It is a net loss of signifcant dollars to the American taxpayer. I would suggest you actually go through the links provided - as well as review many other credible sources showing the complexity of the immigration issue and its resultant impacts upon the current means tested welfare program, education costs, law enforcement costs, legacy costs, etc.


It is a far more complicated issue than so many are willing to portray - and simply stating concerns over immigration as "crapola" does not make it so.

AND, as it specifically pertains to President Obama, he was being dishonest when stating the proposed healthcare reform will not apply to illegals. Such dishonesty only muddies the waters even more, making any kind of true and needed reform far more difficult.

There is nothing dishonest about not covering illegals. If they are undocumented and have no tax id/SS there is no way to cover them. If they do have a valid tax id/SS then they are paying in. With about 2/3's currently paying in, it makes sense to get the other 1/3 paying in too. It's cheaper and more beneficial than sending them home. If you think you can get rid of them, spell it out for us and tell us what it is going to cost to round them up and ship them home.

The illegals argument only serves as a scapegoat. They are too small in numbers to account for the problems in the system. There are larger fish to fry.

Where did you get data that 2/3 are paying in? You keep throwing numbers around and I don't see any official data, just estimates. But let's say your data is right...

To me, it doesn't make sense to get other 1/3 to pay in, but opposite. Get other 2/3 not to pay. No need to round them up and send them home, we just need to enforce immigration law. Rule of law, remember? Let's stop calling them undocumented aliens and make them feel wanted, they are illegally in this country, so they are illegal aliens. Make all those who hired illegal aliens to pay fines, if they keep doing it, force them out of business. Do not promise them freebies, health care, affordable housing.

With no job, they will leave. Where? I heard Venezuela and Cuba today has many common things with us.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

You guys are intellectually dishonest.

That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else...

What about "HERE LEGALLY" do you not understand?

Will you PLEASE stop pointing out FACTS to these morons? It is SO getting in the way of their agenda...

What an intellectually dishonest reply. Even you VaYank...a liberal simpleton....should be able to see that without a verification clause in the bill that there will be rampant fraud and illegals will gain healthcare with stolen identities just like they do now with Medicare/Medicaid.

What I also love is this notion that illegal aliens pay taxes so they are entitled to all of the benefits that we...American citizens...have in this country. What the pinheads like VaYank and SweetWilly seem to forget is that the identities those taxes are paid under are ALL STOLEN from hard working Americans just like us. So...keep making your argument for legalizing illegal aliens. Your party of corruption, lies and tax cheats will be shown the door beginning in 2010.

 

[Ame®icano]

You guys are intellectually dishonest.

That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else...

What about "HERE LEGALLY" do you not understand?

Why dont you quote whole speech?

For example very next part:

If anything, this debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country once and for all.

Obama at Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute’s Award Gala

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Here's more buffoonery from Obama and his merry band of ass clowns on people without healthcare...

Campaign talking point: "47 million Americans are without health insurance..."blah blah blah..

Speech before Congress a few days ago: "...30 million Americans can't get coverage..."

What happened to the other 17 million you lying sack of shit?????!!! Is that how many illegal aliens we have? What about the 16 million who voluntarily OPT OUT of healthcare from their employer so they have more money to spend on video games, strip clubs and plasma TV's? Are they going to get free healthcare ON MY FRICKEN DIME???!!!!

 

[Sweet Willy]

While true they pay in - they also take more out from the system. It is a net loss of signifcant dollars to the American taxpayer. I would suggest you actually go through the links provided - as well as review many other credible sources showing the complexity of the immigration issue and its resultant impacts upon the current means tested welfare program, education costs, law enforcement costs, legacy costs, etc.


It is a far more complicated issue than so many are willing to portray - and simply stating concerns over immigration as "crapola" does not make it so.

AND, as it specifically pertains to President Obama, he was being dishonest when stating the proposed healthcare reform will not apply to illegals. Such dishonesty only muddies the waters even more, making any kind of true and needed reform far more difficult.

There is nothing dishonest about not covering illegals. If they are undocumented and have no tax id/SS there is no way to cover them. If they do have a valid tax id/SS then they are paying in. With about 2/3's currently paying in, it makes sense to get the other 1/3 paying in too. It's cheaper and more beneficial than sending them home. If you think you can get rid of them, spell it out for us and tell us what it is going to cost to round them up and ship them home.

The illegals argument only serves as a scapegoat. They are too small in numbers to account for the problems in the system. There are larger fish to fry.

Where did you get data that 2/3 are paying in? You keep throwing numbers around and I don't see any official data, just estimates. But let's say your data is right...

To me, it doesn't make sense to get other 1/3 to pay in, but opposite. Get other 2/3 not to pay. No need to round them up and send them home, we just need to enforce immigration law. Rule of law, remember? Let's stop calling them undocumented aliens and make them feel wanted, they are illegally in this country, so they are illegal aliens. Make all those who hired illegal aliens to pay fines, if they keep doing it, force them out of business. Do not promise them freebies, health care, affordable housing.

With no job, they will leave. Where? I heard Venezuela and Cuba today has many common things with us.

Get the other 2/3's not to pay? Are you nuts? If it wern't for the illegals paying SS we would be in DEEP SHIT right now.

And as I thought, NOT ONE of you can offer any kind of solution to the 12 million people already here. All you can do is whine and moan about them. Sure, we need to tighten the border and stop as many illegals as possible and turn them back. We need to discourage furhter illegals from entering. That's all great. But what are you going to do with 12 million people here? What will it cost to round them up and send them home? How long and ho much money will it take to gather up 12 million people from all across the country, sort them out, detain them, (where can we detain 12 million people?) and then buy them all a plane ticket back to where ever they came from, IF these countries will even take them back. CAN'T REASONALBY BE DONE.

I can agree with the tightening of borders but the illegals you guys are whining about are already here and neither of the respondants here can do what I asked: MAKE A REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION.

Typical republican/conservative crapola. You can whine about the proposed solution but you don't have one of your own.

 

[Ame®icano]

There is nothing dishonest about not covering illegals. If they are undocumented and have no tax id/SS there is no way to cover them. If they do have a valid tax id/SS then they are paying in. With about 2/3's currently paying in, it makes sense to get the other 1/3 paying in too. It's cheaper and more beneficial than sending them home. If you think you can get rid of them, spell it out for us and tell us what it is going to cost to round them up and ship them home.

The illegals argument only serves as a scapegoat. They are too small in numbers to account for the problems in the system. There are larger fish to fry.

Where did you get data that 2/3 are paying in? You keep throwing numbers around and I don't see any official data, just estimates. But let's say your data is right...

To me, it doesn't make sense to get other 1/3 to pay in, but opposite. Get other 2/3 not to pay. No need to round them up and send them home, we just need to enforce immigration law. Rule of law, remember? Let's stop calling them undocumented aliens and make them feel wanted, they are illegally in this country, so they are illegal aliens. Make all those who hired illegal aliens to pay fines, if they keep doing it, force them out of business. Do not promise them freebies, health care, affordable housing.

With no job, they will leave. Where? I heard Venezuela and Cuba today has many common things with us.

Get the other 2/3's not to pay? Are you nuts? If it wern't for the illegals paying SS we would be in DEEP SHIT right now.

And as I thought, NOT ONE of you can offer any kind of solution to the 12 million people already here. All you can do is whine and moan about them. Sure, we need to tighten the border and stop as many illegals as possible and turn them back. We need to discourage furhter illegals from entering. That's all great. But what are you going to do with 12 million people here? What will it cost to round them up and send them home? How long and ho much money will it take to gather up 12 million people from all across the country, sort them out, detain them, (where can we detain 12 million people?) and then buy them all a plane ticket back to where ever they came from, IF these countries will even take them back. CAN'T REASONALBY BE DONE.

I can agree with the tightening of borders but the illegals you guys are whining about are already here and neither of the respondants here can do what I asked: MAKE A REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION.

Typical republican/conservative crapola. You can whine about the proposed solution but you don't have one of your own.

Just read again what I said above. I made it easy for you this time.

 

[Care4all]

Here's more buffoonery from Obama and his merry band of ass clowns on people without healthcare...

Campaign talking point: "47 million Americans are without health insurance..."blah blah blah..

Speech before Congress a few days ago: "...30 million Americans can't get coverage..."

What happened to the other 17 million you lying sack of shit?????!!! Is that how many illegal aliens we have? What about the 16 million who voluntarily OPT OUT of healthcare from their employer so they have more money to spend on video games, strip clubs and plasma TV's? Are they going to get free healthcare ON MY FRICKEN DIME???!!!!

Can you not put 2 and 2 together?

30 million who CAN NOT GET INSURANCE, vs 47 million WITHOUT INSURANCE?

and 17 million not buying it from the 47 million without, is the 30 million who can not get health insurance.

simple as pie to understand the 2 statements.

care

 

[Ame®icano]

Here's more buffoonery from Obama and his merry band of ass clowns on people without healthcare...

Campaign talking point: "47 million Americans are without health insurance..."blah blah blah..

Speech before Congress a few days ago: "...30 million Americans can't get coverage..."

What happened to the other 17 million you lying sack of shit?????!!! Is that how many illegal aliens we have? What about the 16 million who voluntarily OPT OUT of healthcare from their employer so they have more money to spend on video games, strip clubs and plasma TV's? Are they going to get free healthcare ON MY FRICKEN DIME???!!!!

Can you not put 2 and 2 together?

30 million who CAN NOT GET INSURANCE, vs 47 million WITHOUT INSURANCE?

and 17 million not buying it from the 47 million without, is the 30 million who can not get health insurance.

simple as pie to understand the 2 statements.

care

Half of those CAN get insurance, but refuse to get it.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Where did you get data that 2/3 are paying in? You keep throwing numbers around and I don't see any official data, just estimates. But let's say your data is right...

To me, it doesn't make sense to get other 1/3 to pay in, but opposite. Get other 2/3 not to pay. No need to round them up and send them home, we just need to enforce immigration law. Rule of law, remember? Let's stop calling them undocumented aliens and make them feel wanted, they are illegally in this country, so they are illegal aliens. Make all those who hired illegal aliens to pay fines, if they keep doing it, force them out of business. Do not promise them freebies, health care, affordable housing.

With no job, they will leave. Where? I heard Venezuela and Cuba today has many common things with us.

Get the other 2/3's not to pay? Are you nuts? If it wern't for the illegals paying SS we would be in DEEP SHIT right now.

And as I thought, NOT ONE of you can offer any kind of solution to the 12 million people already here. All you can do is whine and moan about them. Sure, we need to tighten the border and stop as many illegals as possible and turn them back. We need to discourage furhter illegals from entering. That's all great. But what are you going to do with 12 million people here? What will it cost to round them up and send them home? How long and ho much money will it take to gather up 12 million people from all across the country, sort them out, detain them, (where can we detain 12 million people?) and then buy them all a plane ticket back to where ever they came from, IF these countries will even take them back. CAN'T REASONALBY BE DONE.

I can agree with the tightening of borders but the illegals you guys are whining about are already here and neither of the respondants here can do what I asked: MAKE A REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION.

Typical republican/conservative crapola. You can whine about the proposed solution but you don't have one of your own.

Just read again what I said above. I made it easy for you this time.

You are making a very simple minded argument.

When SS gets a payment under a bad number, shall we fine right away? Is i just a mistake? Is it an illegal? Do we dispatch INS right away? Where do we put the people? Do we wait for them to leave on their own? Do you think they will leave or just just go under the radar smewhere else?

Tell me, exactly, how you intend to send away 12 million people after we stop taking 50 billion dollars a year in unverifiable SS payments.

What you bolded above is a simpleton's answer. Give me details and cost estimates to actually effect change.

 

[Ame®icano]

You are making a very simple minded argument.

When SS gets a payment under a bad number, shall we fine right away? Is i just a mistake? Is it an illegal? Do we dispatch INS right away? Where do we put the people? Do we wait for them to leave on their own? Do you think they will leave or just just go under the radar smewhere else?

Tell me, exactly, how you intend to send away 12 million people after we stop taking 50 billion dollars a year in unverifiable SS payments.

What you bolded above is a simpleton's answer. Give me details and cost estimates to actually effect change.

I hope you don't mind, I clean it up a little, and kept just your last post.

I said, there is no need to round anyone up, no need for camps or belligerence,
just follow the rule of law. Simple, polite denials of anything that should be privilege to actual citizens or legal immigrants who've gone through the proper way to enter into our country.

If SS gets payment under wrong/illegal/expired number, they suppose to act according the law and investigate. Enforce draconian penalties on emploeyrs when confirmed they hired illegal aliens and they will stop hiring them. Once they can't get a job, they will leave, or will go thru INS.

Next thing is denial of all social services, excluding minimal care from life-threatening injuries. Stop government scholarship grant for illegals.

They are illegals. They should not be here. Stop treating them as legal and wanted. If they don't like how they are treated they will leave.

Have you ever been in Austria or Switzerland? Do you know their immigration policies? Here is a hint: They don't have illegal alliens. Google to find out why.

 

[Sweet Willy]

You are making a very simple minded argument.

When SS gets a payment under a bad number, shall we fine right away? Is i just a mistake? Is it an illegal? Do we dispatch INS right away? Where do we put the people? Do we wait for them to leave on their own? Do you think they will leave or just just go under the radar smewhere else?

Tell me, exactly, how you intend to send away 12 million people after we stop taking 50 billion dollars a year in unverifiable SS payments.

What you bolded above is a simpleton's answer. Give me details and cost estimates to actually effect change.

I hope you don't mind, I clean it up a little, and kept just your last post.

I said, there is no need to round anyone up, no need for camps or belligerence,
just follow the rule of law. Simple, polite denials of anything that should be privilege to actual citizens or legal immigrants who've gone through the proper way to enter into our country.

If SS gets payment under wrong/illegal/expired number, they suppose to act according the law and investigate. Enforce draconian penalties on emploeyrs when confirmed they hired illegal aliens and they will stop hiring them. Once they can't get a job, they will leave, or will go thru INS.

Next thing is denial of all social services, excluding minimal care from life-threatening injuries. Stop government scholarship grant for illegals.

They are illegals. They should not be here. Stop treating them as legal and wanted. If they don't like how they are treated they will leave.

Have you ever been in Austria or Switzerland? Do you know their immigration policies? Here is a hint: They don't have illegal alliens. Google to find out why.

We already deny all but life threatening care for illegals. They aren't entitled to any SS or Medicare benefits. Emergency care only.

You are suggesting that we turn the cold shoulder to 12 million people living among us in the US. That is not reasonable, intelligent or plausible. Tell me more details about how you intend to deal with the crime wave that comes with 12 million people suddenly becoming cold and hungry.

 

[Sweet Willy]

[
Have you ever been in Austria or Switzerland? Do you know their immigration policies? Here is a hint: They don't have illegal alliens. Google to find out why.

And that is a complete lie. Switzerland has illegal aliens. In fact, it's a pretty big problrm for them. They also have a few million resident aliens they refuse to allow citizenship and that has been a huge issue of national contention.

Same goes for Austria. They have illegal immigrants.

You lie.

 

[Ame®icano]

[
Have you ever been in Austria or Switzerland? Do you know their immigration policies? Here is a hint: They don't have illegal alliens. Google to find out why.

And that is a complete lie. Switzerland has illegal aliens. In fact, it's a pretty big problrm for them. They also have a few million resident aliens they refuse to allow citizenship and that has been a huge issue of national contention.

Same goes for Austria. They have illegal immigrants.

You lie.

I would like you to prove your statement, or at least to get your facts straight.

I've been living and working all over Europe, and I pretty much know their systems and problems, and I was all legal there.

At first, resident alliens are not illegal immigrants. Reason they refuse to give citizenships is because decision is made at the local level where immigrant reside. Switzerland has no amnesties and illegals are deported if caught, no exceptions. If you haven't been there or if you have no friends there, google it, it might help.

In Austria is even worse. Illegals are detained by police while waiting for asylum. If asylum is denied, immigrants are being deported. No business will hire anyone without legal papers, fines are rigorous. Same as above, if you haven't been there, google it.

 

[Ame®icano]

We already deny all but life threatening care for illegals. They aren't entitled to any SS or Medicare benefits. Emergency care only.

You are suggesting that we turn the cold shoulder to 12 million people living among us in the US. That is not reasonable, intelligent or plausible. Tell me more details about how you intend to deal with the crime wave that comes with 12 million people suddenly becoming cold and hungry.

How do we deal with any criminal in US?

All we need to do is to enforce United States laws.

Other details are listed above. All you need to do is to READ.

 

[Harry Dresden]

You guys are intellectually dishonest.

That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else...

What about "HERE LEGALLY" do you not understand?

Will you PLEASE stop pointing out FACTS to these morons? It is SO getting in the way of their agenda...

are you 2 this fucking stupid?.....you dont think he was telling a group of Hispanics that we will get you folks under the umbrella....one way or another?.....i was led to believe by a radio talk show here that there was applause by some....AND....most of the people there said they saw the wink....and the guy saying this is a Hispanic who wants Amnesty yesterday....

 

[Ame®icano]

You guys are intellectually dishonest.



What about "HERE LEGALLY" do you not understand?

Will you PLEASE stop pointing out FACTS to these morons? It is SO getting in the way of their agenda...

are you 2 this fucking stupid?.....you dont think he was telling a group of Hispanics that we will get you folks under the umbrella....one way or another?.....i was led to believe by a radio talk show here that there was applause by some....AND....most of the people there said they saw the wink....and the guy saying this is a Hispanic who wants Amnesty yesterday....

White House is already working on amnesty for illegals. Their projections is that the net costs of illegal alien households, during the lifetime of those households, would be $2.6 trillion. And that's a low number.

White House Report Hides the Real Costs of Amnesty and Low Skill Immigration

 

[Harry Dresden]

Interesting that you take "resolving the issue" to mean blanket amnesty. I doubt that's what he meant...he's at least smart enough to learn something from Reagan's mistake.

we can only hope so Ravi....

 

[Sweet Willy]

[
Have you ever been in Austria or Switzerland? Do you know their immigration policies? Here is a hint: They don't have illegal alliens. Google to find out why.

And that is a complete lie. Switzerland has illegal aliens. In fact, it's a pretty big problrm for them. They also have a few million resident aliens they refuse to allow citizenship and that has been a huge issue of national contention.

Same goes for Austria. They have illegal immigrants.

You lie.

I would like you to prove your statement, or at least to get your facts straight.

I've been living and working all over Europe, and I pretty much know their systems and problems, and I was all legal there.

At first, resident alliens are not illegal immigrants. Reason they refuse to give citizenships is because decision is made at the local level where immigrant reside. Switzerland has no amnesties and illegals are deported if caught, no exceptions. If you haven't been there or if you have no friends there, google it, it might help.

In Austria is even worse. Illegals are detained by police while waiting for asylum. If asylum is denied, immigrants are being deported. No business will hire anyone without legal papers, fines are rigorous. Same as above, if you haven't been there, google it.

I did Google it and your claim that there are no illegals in Switerland or Austria is a lie. It has been a huge issue for both countries, and while they do have strict policy, they STILL have problems with illegal aliens in the countries. Take your own advice and Google it.

So far, the only plan we have been offered here is yours: Ignor them and they might go away. Anyone have a serious plan to deal with this? Oh yeah......there is a plan...the only plan. Get their paper work straight and collect the taxes. Makes perfect sense.

I am waiting for a cost estimate on removing 12 million people from the country. Man power, detention, administrative cost and deportation. You get back to me with that fiscally conservative number now, you hear.