And the other shoe drops; No more illegal aliens

[JakeStarkey]

That may be true, Xenophon.

I would still like to get the borders, north and south, secure. I don't give a darn about Hispanic migrants. It's the jihadist that hides amongst them that scares me silly.

 

[Sinatra]

Amnesty or no - what has been made very clear is that Obama did in fact lie on this issue and more and more are realizing this.

 

[Care4all]

FYI

It was a 10 year plan with several requirements, before they would become eligible for citizenship, if memory serves?

McCain might have also been on board with it too, at least i think i remember repubs being mad at mccain's stance????

The plan is out there somewhere, from what was introduced in the campaigns between hillary and mccain and obama a year or two ago....in case anyone wants to google it and find it, instead of just SPECULATING on what it might look like....

care

 

[JakeStarkey]

Obama is telling the truth. The loonies like the birthers, like the Sinatras, these are the liars, and everyone, including themselves, know it. Go talk to Bush about amnesty.

 

[Sinatra]

Obama is telling the truth. The loonies like the birthers, like the Sinatras, these are the liars, and everyone, including themselves, know it. Go talk to Bush about amnesty.

So Obama is not misdirecting when he states to Congress no healthcare for illegals, then tells a Hispanic audience we must overhaul immigration policy so those "undocumented" can get healthcare like everyone else?

Just want to be clear here - you are supporting this stance by President Obama?

 

[Ame®icano]

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION REFORM AND IMMIGRANT RESPONSIBILITY ACT 1996 (IIRIRA-96)

Section 215. Criminal Penalty for False Claim to Citizenship.

It is unlawful for any person to: (1) make a false claim to U.S. citizenship or nationality for the purpose of obtaining, for him or herself or any other person, any federal benefit or service or employment in the U.S.; and (2) make a false claim to U.S. citizenship to vote or register to vote in any federal, state, or local election.

So, why it is that American citizens are punished for disobeying laws and non-citizens are rewarded, and in a time of massive unemployment we want to keep people who are here illegally and, consequently, attract millions more. I can imagine, after what Obama said, Mexicans are lining up along the border as we speak, waiting for night to come.

 

[Sinatra]

ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION REFORM AND IMMIGRANT RESPONSIBILITY ACT 1996 (IIRIRA-96)

Section 215. Criminal Penalty for False Claim to Citizenship.

It is unlawful for any person to: (1) make a false claim to U.S. citizenship or nationality for the purpose of obtaining, for him or herself or any other person, any federal benefit or service or employment in the U.S.; and (2) make a false claim to U.S. citizenship to vote or register to vote in any federal, state, or local election.

So, why it is that American citizens are punished for disobeying laws and non-citizens are rewarded, and in a time of massive unemployment we want to keep people who are here illegally and, consequently, attract millions more. I can imagine, after what Obama said, Mexicans are lining up along the border as we speak, waiting for night to come.

I was very much thinking along those same lines - how utterly irresponsible for this president to send a message that the borders will in effect, be open season in the near term - all in the name of pandering to a Hispanic audience.

Such a tactic is beyond poor politics, but rather a sign of a very insecure, immature, and irresponsible public figure.

 

[JakeStarkey]

A very secure, mature, and responsible public figure, I would say. The illegals are staying guys, they will be put on a road to citizenship, and your yelling is fun to read, but do realize the yelling will never change anything, anymore than the hatescreaming at the town halls.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Ignorant clap trap. That's what all this whining is.

The ILLEGALS that are here are ALREADY paying 7 to 10 BILLION dollars a year into SS / medicare. If it weren't for them, SS would be broke already. Do you guys mind if we find a way for them to get what THEY ALREDY PAID FOR?

You idiots are biting the hand that is feeding SS.

 

[Ame®icano]

Ignorant clap trap. That's what all this whining is.

The ILLEGALS that are here are ALREADY paying 7 to 10 BILLION dollars a year into SS / medicare. If it weren't for them, SS would be broke already. Do you guys mind if we find a way for them to get what THEY ALREDY PAID FOR?

You idiots are biting the hand that is feeding SS.

Can you prove up that data?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Ignorant clap trap. That's what all this whining is.

The ILLEGALS that are here are ALREADY paying 7 to 10 BILLION dollars a year into SS / medicare. If it weren't for them, SS would be broke already. Do you guys mind if we find a way for them to get what THEY ALREDY PAID FOR?

You idiots are biting the hand that is feeding SS.

Can you prove up that data?

You know, I have repeatedly mentioned this fact and cited it everytime the right wing nuts start going on and on with the bald faced lies about illegals and SS.

Illegals pay into SS under false and expired SS#'s. They can NEVER collect a dime of it. There is a running tab of this money that has been paid in and can not be reconciled with a valid SS#. It is HUNDREDS of billions now and most of it was paid in by illegals. For 30 years we have been told that SS would go broke in five years.....then the next five......it didn't happen. Thank an illegal next time you run across one.

Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez - who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana - contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.

Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.

\

Take note of the bold. What many do not know, don't want to know and their politicians will not say out loud, is that not only has SS been taking in this money, THEY HAVE BEEN COUNTING ON IT.

Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html


These numbers are available if you look for them. They just aren't popular. It's more fun, I guess, to scream "THEY ARE STEALING OUR DAMN SOCIAL SECURITY", than to tell the truth and say "thanks for saving Social Security".

Now, shall we start this conversation over at the truth? Let's start from the point of whether or not we want to get rid of 8.5 BILLION annually that we don't have to give back to the people who earned it.

 

[Ame®icano]

Thanks for replying on this.

$8 billion is lot of money, but it's a pocket change comparing with our governemnt spending.

I wouldn't agree with you that illegals are not getting anything in return. For instance, with 267,000 illegal aliens incarcerated, as of 2003, just the incarceration costs at $25,000 per inmate per year is $6.7 BILLION per year.

In California, the $7.7 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants. In Texas, the $3.9 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants.

Now, in regards your data, are there any government/IRS statistics?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Thanks for replying on this.

$8 billion is lot of money, but it's a pocket change comparing with our governemnt spending.

I wouldn't agree with you that illegals are not getting anything in return. For instance, with 267,000 illegal aliens incarcerated, as of 2003, just the incarceration costs at $25,000 per inmate per year is $6.7 BILLION per year.

In California, the $7.7 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants. In Texas, the $3.9 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants.




Now, in regards your data, are there any government/IRS statistics?

The SS/Medicare is the issue I am addressing here. The topic is the new Health care/Medicare plan. The angle regarding legalization of immigrants is nearly complete bullshit, considering that most of these illegals ALREADY pay SS and Medicare payments, they just can't collect on it. They are paying for services they can not get. These arguments about illegals getting health care for nothing is totally false. The truth is actually the exact opposite. The have been paying for other people's Medicare and SS for decades now. If they are made legal, the only result will be that they would be able to actually claim the care and retirement they have been paying for.

As far as incarceration, to make that an immigrant issue is ridiculous. Do you know any criminals that pay for their own incarceration? That has to be one of the silliest arguments I ever heard. If you want people incarcerated you can expect to pay for it. That will never change. If you think incarceration is expensive, see what kind of estimate you can get for SENDING THE ILLEGALS HOME. Everyone wants them to go away but no one wants to talk about what it will cost and once you do, the conservatives have no answer.

Immigrants pay state and federal highway tax on every gallon of fuel they buy, they pay the same sales tax, vehicle tax, etc. Even if it is paid under someone elses name or even a fake name, IT IS PAID.

And Fedeal taxes?

Denying public services to people who pay their taxes is an affront to America's bedrock belief in fairness. But many "pull-up-the-drawbridge" politicians want to do just that when it comes to illegal immigrants.

The fact that illegal immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes. Yet, nativists like Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., have popularized the notion that illegal aliens are a colossal drain on the nation's hospitals, schools and welfare programs — consuming services that they don't pay for.

Reason Foundation - Illegal Immigrants are Paying a Lot More Taxes Than You Think

NASHVILLE — The tax system collects its due, even from a class of workers with little likelihood of claiming a refund and no hope of drawing a Social Security check.Illegal immigrants are paying taxes to Uncle Sam, experts agree. Just how much they pay is hard to determine because the federal government doesn't fully tally it. But the latest figures available indicate it will amount to billions of dollars in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes this year. One rough estimate puts the amount of Social Security taxes alone at around $9 billion per year.

Paycheck withholding collects much of the federal tax from illegal workers, just as it does for legal workers.

The Internal Revenue Service doesn't track a worker's immigration status, yet many illegal immigrants fearful of deportation won't risk the government attention that will come from filing a return even if they might qualify for a refund. Economist William Ford of Middle Tennessee State University says there are no firm figures on how many such taxpayers there are.

"The real question is how many of them pay more than they owe. There are undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of people in that situation," Ford said.

But some illegal immigrants choose to file taxes and write a check come April 15, using an alternative to the Social Security number offered by the IRS so it can collect income tax from foreign workers.

"It's a mistake to think that no illegal immigrants pay taxes. They definitely do," said Martha Pantoja, who has been helping Hispanic immigrants this tax season as an IRS-certified volunteer tax preparer for the non-profit Nashville Wealth Building Coalition.

This entire debate about illegals ad taxes is based upon LIES and misconceptions. There is a problem with collecting and correctly dispersing the funds but the general assumptions that illegals don't pay taxes and don't pay SS/Medicare, IS PATENTLY FALSE. MOST PAY. And they don't ask for a refund and they don't qualify for most services.

California does have a problem but hey, that is California.

On the whole, immigrants are a PLUS for us and this entire right wing propoganda campaign against them is a huge lie and a long term mistake to chase away productive and tax payin people who came here for the very thing that you can't get a damned white guy to do anymore: WORK.

 

[Sinatra]

It is humorous for some to come in here and claim that concerns regarding immigration policy are based upon "lies and misconceptions", in which those same thread participants then engage in lies and misconceptions!

The immigration issue is a very complicated one - there are not easy, nor cheap, remedies. What is more clear is the need for remedies, as the current status quo is simply not working.

A report by Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation place the longer term costs of amnesty at around $2.6 trillion dollars. That is a signficant cost to the system by any measure, and one that should give any reasonable person pause.

Amnesty Will Cost U.S. Taxpayers at Least $2.6 Trillion

Rector also, in testimony to a House Subcomittee in 2007 outlined the net cost of low skill immigrant households at over $49 billion per year - meaning that these immigrant household were taking $49 billion from the system over what they were putting in. That too is a significant number, particularly for a nation struggling with an ever growing deficit issue.

And here is what Ernest Istook said on the subject a couple months ago...

Obama obviously wants to leave the impression that government won't pay health care for illegals. It's a false impression. Here are the two big fallacies with Obama's carefully-chosen and scripted words:

There are other avenues for illegal aliens to receive health care at public expense.

All efforts to add enforcement language to HR3200 were defeated by mostly party-line votes. We can expect that the bureaucracy would look the other way under Obama's control (just as it has with prior presidents).

Current law says illegal aliens qualify only for emergency medical care through Medicaid. Most of these are childbirths. These costs exceed $3 billion a year. But because few states require proof of legal presence for regular Medicaid, nobody knows the true number of illegals who receive it, or at what cost.

The House bill not only makes a major expansion of Medicaid eligibility but also restricts (in Section 1702) inquiries about immigration status. Efforts to fix this and to add enforcement provisions to HR 3200 were offered in the Ways & Means Committee by Rep. Dean Heller (R-Nev.) and in the Energy & Commerce Committee by Rep. Nathan Deal (R-Ga.), but voted down. No Democrats supported Heller. Blue Dog Representatives Mike Ross (D-Ark.), Jim Matheson (D-Utah), Charles Melancon (D-La.), John Barrow (D-Ga.), and Baron Hill (D-Ind.) voted for the Deal proposal.

H.R. 3200 contains gaping loopholes that will allow illegal immigrants to receive taxpayer-funded benefits. And these loopholes are no accident. The legislation contains no verification mechanism to ensure that illegal immigrants do not apply for benefits. Republicans offered an amendment to close this loophole -- it would have required verification using the existing methods that are already in place to verify eligibility for other federal benefits programs. But, when they were asked to put the language of the bill where their words were, in a party-line vote, House Democrats rejected the amendment to require verification and close this loophole.

Immigration Distrust on Health Bill

So what we have is a current immigration system that is incredibly costly and rife with abuse against the American taxpayer - and the Democrats attempts at healthcare reform will only add to that cost and abuse for we will be combining both the innefective system of government run healthcare with the already proven innefective system of government run immigration policy that will further feed the cavernous beast of the American welfare state.

Most Americans do not realize the size and scope of our means tested welfare programs that cost taxpayers over $700 billion per year. This is more than is spent on the entire defense budget, including the war in Iraq. When Lynden Johnson initiated his War on Poverty welfare state expansion, means tested welfare accounted for 1.2% of our entire GDP. It has since increased by over 400%. In inflation adjusted dollars, the entire cost of America's means tested welfare programs is $16 trillion dollars - more than double what has been spent on all the wars in America's history. In one year, America will spend more on means tested welfare than it has spent in all the years of the Iraq war, and Obama's current budget has this country spending an additional $10 trillion in means tested welfare spending - a rate that is nearly double that of the Clinton era.

These numbers are staggering, dangerous, and a recipe for eventual economic collapse for America. Adding government run healthcare will add to those costs. Adding government run healthcare with no provisions requiring no tax payer treatment for illegal aliens will raise that cost even higher.


Obama to spend $10.3 trillion on welfare | Spero News

 

[Sweet Willy]

You can make plenty of valid arguments against social programs, that is a matter of opinion. The crapola about immigrants is just crapola. They are an easy scapegoat.

You can present all the estimates and columnist opinions you want. They are just opinions. The hard facts show us otherwise. These people are paying in money that they can not claim.

 

[JakeStarkey]

If the rightoids would work as hard as the illegal immigrants, our country would be on the credit side right now. Rightards, get to work, y'heah?

 

[Sinatra]

You can make plenty of valid arguments against social programs, that is a matter of opinion. The crapola about immigrants is just crapola. They are an easy scapegoat.

You can present all the estimates and columnist opinions you want. They are just opinions. The hard facts show us otherwise. These people are paying in money that they can not claim.

While true they pay in - they also take more out from the system. It is a net loss of signifcant dollars to the American taxpayer. I would suggest you actually go through the links provided - as well as review many other credible sources showing the complexity of the immigration issue and its resultant impacts upon the current means tested welfare program, education costs, law enforcement costs, legacy costs, etc.


It is a far more complicated issue than so many are willing to portray - and simply stating concerns over immigration as "crapola" does not make it so.

AND, as it specifically pertains to President Obama, he was being dishonest when stating the proposed healthcare reform will not apply to illegals. Such dishonesty only muddies the waters even more, making any kind of true and needed reform far more difficult.

 

[Sweet Willy]

You can make plenty of valid arguments against social programs, that is a matter of opinion. The crapola about immigrants is just crapola. They are an easy scapegoat.

You can present all the estimates and columnist opinions you want. They are just opinions. The hard facts show us otherwise. These people are paying in money that they can not claim.

While true they pay in - they also take more out from the system. It is a net loss of signifcant dollars to the American taxpayer. I would suggest you actually go through the links provided - as well as review many other credible sources showing the complexity of the immigration issue and its resultant impacts upon the current means tested welfare program, education costs, law enforcement costs, legacy costs, etc.


It is a far more complicated issue than so many are willing to portray - and simply stating concerns over immigration as "crapola" does not make it so.

AND, as it specifically pertains to President Obama, he was being dishonest when stating the proposed healthcare reform will not apply to illegals. Such dishonesty only muddies the waters even more, making any kind of true and needed reform far more difficult.

There is nothing dishonest about not covering illegals. If they are undocumented and have no tax id/SS there is no way to cover them. If they do have a valid tax id/SS then they are paying in. With about 2/3's currently paying in, it makes sense to get the other 1/3 paying in too. It's cheaper and more beneficial than sending them home. If you think you can get rid of them, spell it out for us and tell us what it is going to cost to round them up and ship them home.

The illegals argument only serves as a scapegoat. They are too small in numbers to account for the problems in the system. There are larger fish to fry.

 

[Sinatra]

You can make plenty of valid arguments against social programs, that is a matter of opinion. The crapola about immigrants is just crapola. They are an easy scapegoat.

You can present all the estimates and columnist opinions you want. They are just opinions. The hard facts show us otherwise. These people are paying in money that they can not claim.

While true they pay in - they also take more out from the system. It is a net loss of signifcant dollars to the American taxpayer. I would suggest you actually go through the links provided - as well as review many other credible sources showing the complexity of the immigration issue and its resultant impacts upon the current means tested welfare program, education costs, law enforcement costs, legacy costs, etc.


It is a far more complicated issue than so many are willing to portray - and simply stating concerns over immigration as "crapola" does not make it so.

AND, as it specifically pertains to President Obama, he was being dishonest when stating the proposed healthcare reform will not apply to illegals. Such dishonesty only muddies the waters even more, making any kind of true and needed reform far more difficult.

There is nothing dishonest about not covering illegals. If they are undocumented and have no tax id/SS there is no way to cover them. If they do have a valid tax id/SS then they are paying in. With about 2/3's currently paying in, it makes sense to get the other 1/3 paying in too. It's cheaper and more beneficial than sending them home. If you think you can get rid of them, spell it out for us and tell us what it is going to cost to round them up and ship them home.

The illegals argument only serves as a scapegoat. They are too small in numbers to account for the problems in the system. There are larger fish to fry.

You are aware of the law passed under Clinton regarding this very matter, yes?

If not, I suggest you look it up.

I also suggest you actually read the links provided in full - they will more than answer the question of numbers.

The illegals is a valid concern. Is it THE concern regarding health care reform? No, but certainly a component that should be dealt with honestly. At present, the president has been among the most dishonest in his commentary on the subject, and that does a terrible disservice to the discourse...

 

[Sweet Willy]

While true they pay in - they also take more out from the system. It is a net loss of signifcant dollars to the American taxpayer. I would suggest you actually go through the links provided - as well as review many other credible sources showing the complexity of the immigration issue and its resultant impacts upon the current means tested welfare program, education costs, law enforcement costs, legacy costs, etc.


It is a far more complicated issue than so many are willing to portray - and simply stating concerns over immigration as "crapola" does not make it so.

AND, as it specifically pertains to President Obama, he was being dishonest when stating the proposed healthcare reform will not apply to illegals. Such dishonesty only muddies the waters even more, making any kind of true and needed reform far more difficult.

There is nothing dishonest about not covering illegals. If they are undocumented and have no tax id/SS there is no way to cover them. If they do have a valid tax id/SS then they are paying in. With about 2/3's currently paying in, it makes sense to get the other 1/3 paying in too. It's cheaper and more beneficial than sending them home. If you think you can get rid of them, spell it out for us and tell us what it is going to cost to round them up and ship them home.

The illegals argument only serves as a scapegoat. They are too small in numbers to account for the problems in the system. There are larger fish to fry.

You are aware of the law passed under Clinton regarding this very matter, yes?

If not, I suggest you look it up.

I also suggest you actually read the links provided in full - they will more than answer the question of numbers.

The illegals is a valid concern. Is it THE concern regarding health care reform? No, but certainly a component that should be dealt with honestly. At present, the president has been among the most dishonest in his commentary on the subject, and that does a terrible disservice to the discourse...

I read the links.

The illegals ARE NOT going anywhere. They might leave on their own but we DO NOT, WILL NOT and CAN NOT round up and deport 12 million people from the country to points all across the globe. We can't even seem to figure out what to do with a couple hundred detainees and you think we can get rid of 12 million people?

Tell us your solution. Stop finger pointing and scape goating and tell us what your solution is.