Anarchists and libertarians - Please click here

[martybegan]

To me "big L" libertarians and anarchists are the same thing.

They aren't.

I did qualify it with a "to me"

Same basic concept, same guaranteed end results.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

Hi everybody. I'm just trying to get a sense for how many people here are truly freedom-minded. Please vote to indicate your position, and feel free to elaborate, or bring up anything you'd like (or just vent your inevitable frustrations) in this thread! Thanks so much!

*note that I've made a distinction between full-on anarchists/voluntaryists, Libertarian party supporters, and other libertarians who condone some form of minimal government.

Fiscal Conservative with Social Liberal views which mean I am for your freedom of choices in life just do not ask me to flip the bill with my tax dollars!

You're too fixated on the misconception that writing checks from 3000 miles away actually fixes things. It's not a fixed pie. The govt often CREATES more problems than they solve with tossing money..

Again, do not ask me to pay for it...

I am not fixated on anything except how much I have to give to the waste.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

History has demonstrated the morality of capitalism.

It has also demonstrated the immorality of capitalism. the mistake in both cases is to assign any morality at all to what is, essentially, an algorithm. Would you assign morality to a man-eating shark? No, and that would be absurd. Same goes for capitalism.

i am not a diehard leftist. I believe in the importance of capitalism, and in individual freedom of expression and thought and behavior. Yo are simply not correct. You have spent too much time in the fake little bubble that you have crafted for yourself, so if anyone DARES to suggest, for instance, controls on capitalism (which we have had since day one, with the agreement of ALL on the left and the right), then you knee jerk and retreat into bunker mode, thinking everyone is an extremist. You are a scared, anti-intellectual coward, in many ways.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You had them, so pay for them and if you can not then do not breed!

Those were not the choices of the children. You are contradicting yourself.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

To me "big L" libertarians and anarchists are the same thing.

They aren't.

I did qualify it with a "to me"

Same basic concept, same guaranteed end results.

It is not the same basic concept. Libertarians have never lobbied for an absence of any and all authority.

 

[martybegan]

To me "big L" libertarians and anarchists are the same thing.

They aren't.

I did qualify it with a "to me"

Same basic concept, same guaranteed end results.

It is not the same basic concept. Libertarians have never lobbied for an absence of any and all authority.

"Big L" libertarians lobby often for such a husk of a federal government (and sometimes State governments) that you might not get de jure anarchy, but you would end up with it de facto.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

You had them, so pay for them and if you can not then do not breed!

Sorry, that's dumb. Those were not the choices of the children. You are contradicting yourself.

It is the choice of the Parent that those like you refuse to hold responsible in life!

So as you claim I am contradicting myself the reality is you want your cake and make me pay for it while you never take responsibility for what you do in life!

So if you can not afford to raise your child then do not breed, and if you do then work and support them because it is not my kid nor my responsibility!

Also do not cut my comment ever again to spin my words!

Typical partisan nonsense!

 

[flacaltenn]

It's NOT about winning. You only need about 4 Independents/Libertarians in Congress

Well, I think they would actually have to win elections to be there.... right?

And history shows that the libertarians generally fall right in line with their GOP masters, given where the money flows from.. See Ron Paul. Sure, he was always HAPPY to grant a dissenting vote, whenever the outcome was all but assured. he's a fraud.

And the modern libertarian party seems to me to be pretty much carrying around a Ron Paul-written bible. no?

Ron Paul could speak his mind BECAUSE the made the cases to his constituents and educated them and his seat was safe from party boss retribution. He opposed things that America NOW opposes. Like the midEast interventions, the theft of the Soc Security overcharges and MANY other vital issues that the Duopoly of morons in the Rep and Dem parties wouldn't discuss.

BUT -- he's not leading the party anymore.

And NO -- you don't have to win elections. We had TWO GIGANTIC losers on the ballot in 2016. Whichever got elected is just a step up in insanity. You just have to stick with some EASY FUNDAMENTAL principles and be a Classic Liberal and EVENTUALLY --- the country catches up to you.

Like I said -- we've been right for so long -- it literally hurts to look back. And our Libertarian Institutions are creative and productive on issues. And you only need 4 or 6 Indies/Libertarians in Congress to monkey wrench the dysfunction of having that place RUN by 4 party bosses. The rest of the 531 members are virtually irrelevant and getting MORE so as the 2 parties make Congress into their castle.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Libertarians have never lobbied for an absence of any and all authority.

Sure they do, often on accident. Libertarians often fall intellectual victims to their own hamhanded rhetoric. they make overly general arguments about "taxes being theft" that are, essentially, anarchist arguments. Then they, upon scrutiny, are forced to admit that, "okay, some taxes are okay"

The libertarian intellectual space is very nebulous and fraught with contradiction. Bigger government/smaller government? there is a clear line that is easy to follow. "taxes are theft .. .well, okay, maybe not all" ... now that is what you get in the murk of the libertarian caucus. Shoot, just ask 5 of them what they think, and tyou will get 5 different answers that simply do not make any sense, when put together.

And that is why libertarianism is a fringe ideology. IMHO. As a party, they don't have any parties to contrast themselves to , as they can't help but contrast themselves to themselves at every opportunity./

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

He opposed things that America NOW opposes.

he also supported things that America opposes. This is not high praise of ron Paul. Sometimes i agreed with him, and sometimes I did not. in the end, he was an irrational kook with cuckoo ideas.

he also had some of the very worst economic ideas in the history of modern economics... the gold standard and flat tax come to mind. They could be considered "1A and 1B" of the worst economic ideas in modern history.

 

[flacaltenn]

To me "big L" libertarians and anarchists are the same thing.

They aren't.

I did qualify it with a "to me"

Same basic concept, same guaranteed end results.

It is not the same basic concept. Libertarians have never lobbied for an absence of any and all authority.

"Big L" libertarians lobby often for such a husk of a federal government (and sometimes State governments) that you might not get de jure anarchy, but you would end up with it de facto.

That's not exactly how we CHOSE the two 2 term State Governors to BE our 2016 candidates. BOTH these guy worked to keep their respective states from making the same mistakes that is now bankrupting others. THey contributed GREATLY to keeping those states out of budget and fiscal crisis for the future.

They were WELL LIKED for being fiscally responsible. Not for "husking" their states.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It is the choice of the Parent that those like you refuse to hold responsible in life!

You are still contradicting yourself, by holding the children responsible for the choices of others. So, this is okay for them, but not for you.

Got it. That's about the depth of thought I expected, nothing personal. Your ideology just sucks and could have been written by a toddler that wants ALL of his birthday cake.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Libertarians have never lobbied for an absence of any and all authority.

Sure they do, often on accident. Libertarians often fall intellectual victims to their own hamhanded rhetoric. they make overly general arguments about "taxes being theft" that are, essentially, anarchist arguments. Then they, upon scrutiny, are forced to admit that, "okay, some taxes are okay"

The libertarian intellectual space is very nebulous and fraught with contradiction. Bigger government/smaller government? there is a clear line that is easy to follow. "taxes are theft .. .well, okay, maybe not all" ... now that is what you get in the murk of the libertarian caucus. Shoot, just ask 5 of them what they think, and tyou will get 5 different answers that simply do not make any sense, when put together.

And that is why libertarianism is a fringe ideology. IMHO. As a party, they don't have any parties to contrast themselves to , as they can't help but contrast themselves to themselves at every opportunity./

You're misrepresenting the argument. Some taxation at its very core is theft (income taxes, property taxes), but knowing that a minimal level of taxation is necessary to provide for the basic functions of a government, there is some taxation, such as sales taxes, which puts the individual more in control of how much they pay and when and where. I have never heard of any Libertarian calling for a complete dissolution of taxation.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

To me "big L" libertarians and anarchists are the same thing.

They aren't.

I did qualify it with a "to me"

Same basic concept, same guaranteed end results.

It is not the same basic concept. Libertarians have never lobbied for an absence of any and all authority.

"Big L" libertarians lobby often for such a husk of a federal government (and sometimes State governments) that you might not get de jure anarchy, but you would end up with it de facto.

That's not exactly how we CHOSE the two 2 term State Governors to BE our 2016 candidates. BOTH these guy worked to keep their respective states from making the same mistakes that is now bankrupting others. THey contributed GREATLY to keeping those states out of budget and fiscal crisis for the future.

They were WELL LIKED for being fiscally responsible. Not for "husking" their states.

Are you talking about Gary Johnson, he of the proposed burqa ban?

he kind of failed the purity test there, eh? He did recant though, as I recall.

 

[martybegan]

To me "big L" libertarians and anarchists are the same thing.

They aren't.

I did qualify it with a "to me"

Same basic concept, same guaranteed end results.

It is not the same basic concept. Libertarians have never lobbied for an absence of any and all authority.

"Big L" libertarians lobby often for such a husk of a federal government (and sometimes State governments) that you might not get de jure anarchy, but you would end up with it de facto.

That's not exactly how we CHOSE the two 2 term State Governors to BE our 2016 candidates. BOTH these guy worked to keep their respective states from making the same mistakes that is now bankrupting others. THey contributed GREATLY to keeping those states out of budget and fiscal crisis for the future.

They were WELL LIKED for being fiscally responsible. Not for "husking" their states.

Which ones?

I want to see if they are Libertarians or libertarians.

 

[flacaltenn]

To me "big L" libertarians and anarchists are the same thing.

They aren't.

I did qualify it with a "to me"

Same basic concept, same guaranteed end results.

It is not the same basic concept. Libertarians have never lobbied for an absence of any and all authority.

My first intro to Libertarians was going to the library during the "card file" era and pulling the references. Almost ALL of them were anarchist material. That's how we were seen then. But as things get worse, Dems start to look more communist and Repubs neo-nazi. So WE are heading in the right direction.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

It is the choice of the Parent that those like you refuse to hold responsible in life!

You are still contradicting yourself, by holding the children responsible for the choices of others. So, this is okay for them, but not for you.

Got it. That's about the depth of thought I expected, nothing personal. Your ideology just sucks and could have been written by a toddler that wants ALL of his birthday cake.

Why is it you keep on cutting the responses?

I also wrote in my other response what you want can be dealt with on the local and state level but like the typical partisan hack you cut my response and then lied to fit your agenda to spin what I wrote!

So why is it you keep on lying?

Simple, because you believe the one size fit all blanket by the Federal Government is the only answer as long as it is along the lines of Socialism!

You do not want local and state governments to be responsible for their citizens and raise taxes accordingly to the local or state population.

No, instead you prefer to require everyone to pay for what you want because you are not a responsible adult as usual!

Also claiming the child rights, well seeing their rights are limited until a certain age, well I could give a damn about their rights.

You as a parent are responsible for your child and not me, so why keep on telling me that you are not responsible in life?

Simple, those like you want to enjoy steak, fine wine and all the luxuries in life while those like me flip the bill.

So again if you can not afford your kid then do not breed and if you feel the need to reach into someone pocket then ask your Progressive friends and if they say no and the local and state government says no, well then become responsible and get two to three jobs and support your own kid for once!

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You're misrepresenting the argument.

No, I am criticizing the poor, constrained arguments made by both libertarians and conservatives in general. They both (and you know this is fact) have a way of calling a tax "theft" that they do not personally support. The libertarians are more often gulty of this, and... yes,,.,... this unconstrained argument against any taxes IS anarchist.

I have never heard of any Libertarian calling for a complete dissolution of taxation.

yet you have, when they make unconstrained arguments against a tax they do not, personally, prefer.

Give it time, you will see one show up here and make this case against taxes for education. "That is theft! Why should I pay for someone else's education!". And then another libertarian will say, "No, wait, that tax is fine, we need educated children."

So, which of the two above people is a TRUE libertarian? NEITHER. One is an anarchist, and one is a collectivist statist, in their positions. There is no "libertarian intellectual space" in that exchange.

But why is that tax fine, in libertarian ideology ? why is that part of the "acceptable minimum" (A very intentionally vague term that YOU just used as a get-out-of-jail-free card, intellectually). In the view of that colossal fraud Gary Johnson, these taxes are only really acceptable if we pour them into private, unregulated schools. I find that to be fucking nauseating. IOmagine, a self-styled "libertarian" actually SUPPORTING the idea of pouring taxes into private religious schools... letting our taxes sponsor religion... he's a fucking fraud.

"But why is that tax fine, in libertarian ideology ?" Tough to delineate, isn't it? Not for me... I am unfettered by these stupid "purity tests", and i have NO problem whatsoever saying that, yes, I believe we should FORCE you and everyone else to pay for a minimum standard of education for EVERY single child.

*cue half the libertarians hyperventilating into paper bags

And now we know why libertarians will always be intellectually confused and bereft, as a whole. They can't even stop arguing with themselves!

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Why is it you keep on cutting the responses?

So that we can all understand to which statement, specifically, I am responding. I am not changing the meaning of anything you are saying.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

I find it better not to hold myself to a particular set of political ideals.

I think that's wise. That's why I tossed it all, and just went with "Do what you want, just don't rob or hurt anyone."