An Athiest Student as she has claimed, brings a lawsuit with the help of the ACLU?

I can't understand why religious zealots would insist on pushing their religious beliefs in a public school. School children are a captive audience.

How would you react if your child came home and told you her atheist teacher had told the class there was no god?

How would you react if your child came home and told you that they had been kneeling on prayer rugs twice a day and praying to Allah and she asked if she could do it at home too?

i wonder how they'd feel if their kid's teacher explained that the messiah hasn't come yet and that jesus didn't fulfill the prophesies.

somehow, i suspect they wouldn't be so thrilled about religion mixing with education at that point.

i say, as always, if you can't spend 8 hours a day without praying, you should be in a parochial school. it's really that simple.
 
I can't understand why religious zealots would insist on pushing their religious beliefs in a public school. School children are a captive audience.

How would you react if your child came home and told you her atheist teacher had told the class there was no god?

How would you react if your child came home and told you that they had been kneeling on prayer rugs twice a day and praying to Allah and she asked if she could do it at home too?

i wonder how they'd feel if their kid's teacher explained that the messiah hasn't come yet and that jesus didn't fulfill the prophesies.

somehow, i suspect they wouldn't be so thrilled about religion mixing with education at that point.

i say, as always, if you can't spend 8 hours a day without praying, you should be in a parochial school. it's really that simple.

Also, there is nothing that says a child can't pray on his own. It is forced prayer or open religious displays that are not allowed
 
The majority does not define rights for everyone else.

The minority also does not have the right to censor the majority simply because the majority's expression is on public land either.

The seperation of church and state is about preventing situations like what you have today in the UK and had at the time of the Founding Fathers where the Church of England was supported with taxes and back then you also, to be a member of the government, you had to be a member of the Chruch of England.

That is what seperation of church and state is about, not stopping kids from praying at high school football games.
 
I can't understand why religious zealots would insist on pushing their religious beliefs in a public school. School children are a captive audience.

How would you react if your child came home and told you her atheist teacher had told the class there was no god?

How would you react if your child came home and told you that they had been kneeling on prayer rugs twice a day and praying to Allah and she asked if she could do it at home too?

i wonder how they'd feel if their kid's teacher explained that the messiah hasn't come yet and that jesus didn't fulfill the prophesies.

somehow, i suspect they wouldn't be so thrilled about religion mixing with education at that point.

i say, as always, if you can't spend 8 hours a day without praying, you should be in a parochial school. it's really that simple.

Also, there is nothing that says a child can't pray on his own. It is forced prayer or open religious displays that are not allowed

Many school employees think it also bans the religious expression of individual students and I know of many cases where they have stopped kids from praying at lunch time.

Like everything, if you push the law one way, those who support that change will often go well beyond the exact letter of what the courts order.
 
There is a saying...

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for supper

Just because you are in the majority doesn't mean you get to vote away the rights of a minority

Which is why we were founded as a Constitutional Republic, and not a democracy.
 
The real bitch the ACLU has is with the values of honesty, kindness, friendship and sportsmanship. Don't DARE remind kids of these, they could be Christian values and not permitted on school grounds.
 
If the majority chose to repeal the First Amendment, you would be bitching and moaning about being persecuted.

There is also the issue of common sense here. The banner has been there for 49 years and suddenly now it's unconstitutional? You're right, we don't live by majority rule in this country, but we do seem to be headed towards the opposite extreme. One person in 49 years who has a bug up her ass about something shouldn't be able to force her view on the overwhelming majority who don't have an issue with this banner. It is no more fair for a minute minority to force their views on the majority than it is for the majority to engage in mob rule.

Additionally, I am not all that religious myself and I have absolutely no problem with these kinds of displays on public property, regardless of the religion. This banner seems to promote a pretty positive message to kids. I would also argue that the First Amendment "separation" of church and state, if you go by original intent, really only restricts the federal government from religious promotion, not the states or local government bodies, but courts have extrapolated that clause over the years to reach even the lowest level of government.
 
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The court relied on a 2005 case in which the Supreme Court called for particular care in separating church and state in public schools. In that case, the high court ruled that a monument displaying the Ten Commandments was acceptable on the grounds of the Texas State Capitol. But the court added that the same monument on the grounds of a public school would be impermissible, "given the impressionability of the young." The judge followed Supreme Court precedent, this is a non-issue.


Your response I am keying on here is - "But the court added that the same monument on the grounds of a public school would be impermissible, "given the impressionability of the young", but the allowance of the Ten Commandments on the state house grounds was exceptable.


Ahh, so now we are getting down to what the feds want in this nation, and that is to be the soul supplier of impressionable influence over our young anymore, and this as so to mold them and re-train them into their way of thinking, that now goes against what the parents had been teaching them for years, but why I ask ? Why is it now in the feds interest to do this in America against the majorities will ? Why has their been an attack on American values and American culture from the fed level for so many years now, where as we are seeing the results of those attacks daily, but are defenseless to do anything about them anymore, and this in order to retain our history and our cultures in America against a taken over fed that sides with the devil now in so many ways?

I say that the feds have been infiltrated by devilish characters in a majority when it comes to the fed world only, and so their goal is to use that majority and that power taken over by that majority within, to go against an even bigger majority that which is the citizenry of the whole united states. They would be the only ones who could sway the public into their way of thinking through or by force, and this is exactly what they have been doing now for the last 40 or 50 years, and it is getting worse and worse everyday. This is just one more example of that attack, and the results there afterwards, in which tells this nation exactly what is going on in all of this mess that we (in a majority), are experiencing now in America. You know what this means right? It means that we are fast becoming a dictatorship that is run by a minority that which exist in our government, against the majority who are outside the government, and do reside as citizens within this nation still as a majority (but have been silenced by the fed in court decisions and rulings), where as the feds are the leaders of what is becoming faster and faster a corrupt dictatorship now over the people in this nation. These cases and their rulings, are chipping away at the culture & fabric of America, and is since creating a new culture that is suitable to the feds and their control over us, where as the old ways wouldnot work for them anymore.

The irrefutable bottom line here is that it takes 75%, not 99% to effect Constitutional Amendment. The Court sometimes wants to divert from that, but in reality is powerless against it. Separation of Church and State is many ways misunderstood and misapplies. Let's first distinguish between Principle and Dogma. True not all Religious Quotes are appropriate for all applications or circumstances, true also that some may fit.

As for Huggy, not having a Personal Relationship with his Maker, try reaching God through your Conscience. Huggy, once you find your Conscience, learn to shut up and listen. ;)
 
U.S. District Judge Ronald Lagueux rejected in his ruling on Wednesday the school's claims that the message in the mural, which opens with "Our Heavenly Father" and closes with "Amen," was purely secular.

"No amount of debate can make the School Prayer anything other than a prayer, and a Christian one at that," Lagueux wrote in a 40-page opinion.

Court orders removal of school prayer mural | Reuters

Original Intent falls victim to the flavor of the day.
 
I can't understand why religious zealots would insist on pushing their religious beliefs in a public school. School children are a captive audience.

How would you react if your child came home and told you her atheist teacher had told the class there was no god?

How would you react if your child came home and told you that they had been kneeling on prayer rugs twice a day and praying to Allah and she asked if she could do it at home too?
If my child came home and wanted to pray to a false god like allah because other kids were doing it school I would pull her out of school so she won't get corrupted by evil.
 
We vote on issues ALL the time, new laws get put in the voting booths and the majority makes it or breaks it. There's many issues over the years that i voted against, but the majority voted for, so i'm shit out of luck. Or are you saying i shouldn't have to abide by that law now because i voted against it?? I really don't think it works that way.....

So you are saying that the laws that are placed in the voting booths, in which has been voted upon for how many years now(?), is exactly where it is that the majority in this nation have been voting and acting upon empowering those laws from that stand point only(?), and by this (they those people who voted in a majority) have been since changing the situation in this country because of (?) but do you think about this when you say what you say in reward of your "majority" standpoint given by you, in which supposedly makes up those who are in those voting booths! How many citizens didnot vote for the last 40 or 50 years in the elections, because they had become lazy and/or didnot see a threat coming by way of the booth or for any other number of reasons? Otherwise they just went about their lives as usual, thinking that it was going to be ok, because surely the people wouldnot do anything to stupid if they didnot show up to vote right? Well millions stayed home or stayed upon their jobs, while the devil found out this weakness, and exploited this weakness by way of your booth (i.e. the farmers no longer gaurding the hen houses), and so the bad amongst us then put their wolves into it (the booth) while the farmers were away. Now with all this that is known by us now, did they represent or make up the true majority in this nation, or has that system been so corrupted for the last 40 or 50 years, that the booth has been swaying back and forth among various groups for whom didnot make up the true majority in this nation on whole when voting, and you and I know why, because of the absenteism involved we couldnot get a true majority vote that represented the nation on whole counted, and thus these various groups were since getting their way at the booth, while the farmers were out in trust of and doing their good works while leaving it to those for whom they thought they could then trust to keep America good ?

The reason I ask, is lets just take for one example that I can give right off the top of my head, where as just look at the blacks who have been claiming that the voting has been rigged in this nation for years against them right, otherwise so if the voting had been rigged as that group says, then what that means, is that the vote was stacked against you at the booth by special interest instead of the true majority in America being represented at that booth for you, and so when you cast your vote, it didnot truly represent the will of the American people to enact change properly by the majority by the vote when cast in these rigged situations as is claimed, and thus the vote was being controlled by a corrupt minority of people who were in power to do so, and this by many means and ways they do this before the booth is even entered. Yes, there are those who want to keep the nation just the way they want it for their group, at least until the people finally find out exactly what is going on in it all, and do become very active in making sure that fraud and the vote truly represents the majority in this nation, instead of it being rigged against them.

The voting booth is still under attack by many, and so it is hard for me to say that the vote truly represents the will of the majority, whom for many reasons have been silenced over the years, and this by many possible rigged elections & methods being used.

The Lord said that a House divided shall not stand, and our divisions have been made deep through infiltration of and corruption, so now this whole ball of wax is melting away quickly. We see power grabs everywhere these days, and it now comes down to not having the people in a majority get their way, but rather the will of a minority get their way against that majority who had been silenced by judges, corruption, voter fraud and etc.:eusa_pray:
 
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I can't understand why religious zealots would insist on pushing their religious beliefs in a public school. School children are a captive audience.

How would you react if your child came home and told you her atheist teacher had told the class there was no god?

How would you react if your child came home and told you that they had been kneeling on prayer rugs twice a day and praying to Allah and she asked if she could do it at home too?
If my child came home and wanted to pray to a false god like allah because other kids were doing it school I would pull her out of school so she won't get corrupted by evil.

Of course you would...

Now why cant you accept another parent who teaches their child that there is no god being forced to worship a heavenly father?
 
We vote on issues ALL the time, new laws get put in the voting booths and the majority makes it or breaks it. There's many issues over the years that i voted against, but the majority voted for, so i'm shit out of luck. Or are you saying i shouldn't have to abide by that law now because i voted against it?? I really don't think it works that way...
No, civil rights are not subject to majority rule, fortunately.

I say that the feds have been infiltrated by devilish characters in a majority…

So the answer is no, you don’t understand why you’re wrong.

I can't understand why religious zealots would insist on pushing their religious beliefs in a public school. School children are a captive audience.

It’s predicated on the inane belief that the ‘removal’ of Christian prayer from the schools has resulted in all the ills young people are subject to: pregnancy, drugs, dropping out, etc. And that ‘moral structure’ can only be realized by religious observance.

The role of non-Christians is to keep quiet and go along, as they forfeit their rights per their minority status. Indeed, Christians believe Christian prayer in school is justified, as they’re in the majority, and incorrectly believe that disallowing prayer in school is a ‘violation’ of the Free Exercise Clause.

This is nonsense, of course, as praying in school is not part of any Christian sect’s dogma, and no religion's practice is violated. As already noted, children many pray in school, provided there’s no state involvement.

The minority also does not have the right to censor the majority simply because the majority's expression is on public land either.

No one is being ‘censored.’ And it has nothing to do with the minority dictating to the majority. Again, that the majority elect to violate the Constitution and others’ civil rights, their majority status does not justify the violation. This is the essence of the rule of law: to protect citizens from the tyranny of the majority.

The seperation of church and state is about preventing situations like what you have today in the UK and had at the time of the Founding Fathers where the Church of England was supported with taxes and back then you also, to be a member of the government, you had to be a member of the Chruch of England.

That is what seperation of church and state is about, not stopping kids from praying at high school football games.

The Constitution and its case law disagree with you: if religion in a public venue has no secular legislative purpose, its primary effect is to advance or inhibit religion, or if there’s an excessive government entanglement with religion, then the policy is un-Constitutional and will be struck down. See: Lemon v. Kurtzman
 
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[Also, there is nothing that says a child can't pray on his own. It is forced prayer or open religious displays that are not allowed

How have this girl's rights been violated?

"Our heavenly father"

If the banner had started "Praise Allah" would it be acceptable?

It doesn't matter because that's not what it says, but if there were a sizable Muslim population in that community, like in Dearborn, Michigan, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it said "Praise Allah." In fact, I'd be willing to bet if you walk into a public school in Dearborn you will see Islamic displays in some form or another. Does that force anyone in the school to pray to Allah? Does this banner force this child to pray to Jehovah or take part in Christian practices, or force her to convert to a Christian religion?

We have moved towards this thinking that somehow we have a right to not be offended and that therefore means we can suppress the expression of the vast majority of people to secure that "right," yet there is no such doctrine in the U.S. Constitution or any state constitution. The simple, common sense thing for this child to do if this banner bothers her so much is to simply not look at it.

Tyranny of the minority is no better than tyranny of the majority. Common sense is all that needs to be applied here and our legal system has become practically void of it.
 
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There is a saying...

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for supper

Just because you are in the majority doesn't mean you get to vote away the rights of a minority

We vote on issues ALL the time, new laws get put in the voting booths and the majority makes it or breaks it. There's many issues over the years that i voted against, but the majority voted for, so i'm shit out of luck. Or are you saying i shouldn't have to abide by that law now because i voted against it?? I really don't think it works that way.....
You don't think it works that way because you are uninformed. This is not a pure democracy. Majority does not rule.
 
How have this girl's rights been violated?

"Our heavenly father"

If the banner had started "Praise Allah" would it be acceptable?

It doesn't matter because that's not what it says, but if there were a sizable Muslim population in that community, like in Dearborn, Michigan, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it said "Praise Allah." In fact, I'd be willing to bet if you walk into a public school in Dearborn you will see Islamic displays in some form or another. Does that force anyone in the school to pray to Allah? Does this banner force this child to pray to Jehovah or take part in Christian practices, or force her to convert to a Christian religion?

We have moved towards this thinking that somehow we have a right to not be offended and that therefore means we can suppress the expression of the vast majority of people to secure that "right," yet there is no such doctrine in the U.S. Constitution or any state constitution. The simple, common sense thing for this child to do if this banner bothers her so much is to simply not look at it.

Tyranny of the minority is no better than tyranny of the majority. Common sense is all that needs to be applied here and our legal system has become practically void of it.

If your child were a Christian in Dearborn Michigan, she would be offered the same protections from religious influences as that atheist child

Tyranny of the majority is the same as tyranny of the minority....both are still tyranny. That young girl is not insisting that a banner declaring that there is no god be displayed, she is just insisting on a religious neutral environment
 
The court relied on a 2005 case in which the Supreme Court called for particular care in separating church and state in public schools. In that case, the high court ruled that a monument displaying the Ten Commandments was acceptable on the grounds of the Texas State Capitol. But the court added that the same monument on the grounds of a public school would be impermissible, "given the impressionability of the young." The judge followed Supreme Court precedent, this is a non-issue.
Your response I am keying on here is - "But the court added that the same monument on the grounds of a public school would be impermissible, "given the impressionability of the young", but the allowance of the Ten Commandments on the state house grounds was exceptable.


Ahh, so now we are getting down to what the feds want in this nation, and that is to be the soul supplier of impressionable influence over our young anymore, and this as so to mold them and re-train them into their way of thinking, that now goes against what the parents had been teaching them for years, but why I ask ? Why is it now in the feds interest to do this in America against the majorities will ? Why has their been an attack on American values and American culture from the fed level for so many years now, where as we are seeing the results of those attacks daily, but are defenseless to do anything about them anymore, and this in order to retain our history and our cultures in America against a taken over fed that sides with the devil now in so many ways?

I say that the feds have been infiltrated by devilish characters in a majority when it comes to the fed world only, and so their goal is to use that majority and that power taken over by that majority within, to go against an even bigger majority that which is the citizenry of the whole united states. They would be the only ones who could sway the public into their way of thinking through or by force, and this is exactly what they have been doing now for the last 40 or 50 years, and it is getting worse and worse everyday. This is just one more example of that attack, and the results there afterwards, in which tells this nation exactly what is going on in all of this mess that we (in a majority), are experiencing now in America. You know what this means right? It means that we are fast becoming a dictatorship that is run by a minority that which exist in our government, against the majority who are outside the government, and do reside as citizens within this nation still as a majority (but have been silenced by the fed in court decisions and rulings), where as the feds are the leaders of what is becoming faster and faster a corrupt dictatorship now over the people in this nation. These cases and their rulings, are chipping away at the culture & fabric of America, and is since creating a new culture that is suitable to the feds and their control over us, where as the old ways wouldnot work for them anymore.
The majority voted for "the feds." Why can't the majority vote them out?

Oops.
 

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