Amnesty slams "israel"

[rhodescholar]

First the monkey boy posts this:

Don't change the subject. This is about Israeli violations, you wanna talk about Palestinian violations, go start a thread, don't hijack this one!

...and then the same retarded idiot posts this...

...when we kill just as many civilians in Afghanistan from a drone strike.

Are you senile, have alzheimer's or are just so fucking stupid that you cannot recall what you yourself posted in the same thread only one page earlier?

 

[Billo_Really]

The US Killed 100 Afghans in a drone strike today? link please.

No, those were Thunder jihadists succumbing to long (and short) range bombs, at the hands of King James, last night.

As far as Afghani's...

Double Standards on Civilian Deaths

- between 70 and 100 civilians, including women and children, were killed May 5, 2009, by a U.S. raid against Bala Baluk.

- later that year...U.S. jets killed 99 Afghans when they bombed a pair of hijacked fuel tankers on Sept. 4.

- U.S. jets attacked a wedding party on Nov. 4, 2008, in Kandahar Province, killing up to 90 people and wounding 28.

- In July that year, the U.S had bombed a wedding party in Nangarhar leaving 47 civilian partiers dead, including the bride.

- On July 4, 22 civilians were blown up when U.S. helicopters rocketed two vehicles in Nuristan.

- as many as 170 civilians that died under the U.S-led bombing of Helmand Province at the end of June 2007,

- 21 civilians that were killed in the same area on May 9 that year.

Which now brings us to my point...

Whenever U.S. forces inflict massive civilian casualties, it’s a “mistake” or the fault of the targets because they were “hiding” in populated areas. Yet, when civilian deaths occur in the country of a “designated enemy,” all ambiguity is swept aside and no excuses are accepted

But hey, look at the bright side, at least the Afghani's got their population decrease counted!

Iraqis, on the other hand...

In October 2004, Human Rights Watch estimated that 100,000 Iraqis had been killed since the U.S. bombing and invasion started in 2003. The State Department neglected to condemn this mass destruction of civilians, and the Pentagon responded to the report not with a denial but with an announcement that it did not keep a tally of civilian deaths.

How convenient!

 

[Billo_Really]

First the monkey boy posts this:

...and then the same retarded idiot posts this...

Are you senile, have alzheimer's or are just so fucking stupid that you cannot recall what you yourself posted in the same thread only one page earlier?

Just putting your bias and hypocrisy in perspective, not using it to prevent any discussion on Syrian atrocities everytime someone brings up the subject.

BTW, I recall what I said. Guilty as charged your honor! But you can't make an omlette, without breaking a few eggs.

 

[Saigon]

Artevelde - So because Assad is killing people in Syria, it is ok for Israel to kill a few. Silly, silly posting.

In what context was those people killed? What were the circumstances?

When people like you stop giving a pass to the 500 MM arabs for their bad behaviour, I'll be willing to take a look at what those pesky 4 MM jews are doing...

I don't give a pass for anyone - all killing of civilians is wrong and unacceptable, all use of detention without trial and collective punishment is wrong and unacceptable.

The failure of justice is a universal value, but it is easier for me to understand justice fails in Congo, Nigeria or Libya than it is in Finland, the US or Israel.

We set ourselves higher standards.

If Israel's defence is 'We are better than Syria' then there is little hope for Israel.

 

[rhodescholar]

I don't give a pass for anyone - all killing of civilians is wrong and unacceptable, all use of detention without trial and collective punishment is wrong and unacceptable.

So then where are your complaints about the hundreds, if not thousands, of lebanese prisoners rotting in syrian jails, some of them for decades - held without trial indefinitely?

Or those iranian arabs inside iranian gulags like evin prison? What about all of the muslim prisoners rotting in algerian prisons? How about the ones in egypt, held for decades? I guess those prisoners are not worthy of your attention...

The failure of justice is a universal value, but it is easier for me to understand justice fails in Congo, Nigeria or Libya than it is in Finland, the US or Israel. We set ourselves higher standards.

This is total fucking garbage, and it astounds me that those on the left fail to recognize the abject, disgusting racism they retain against non-Westerners, as if they are stupid, incapable children unable to adhere to the same basic rules of civil behavior those in the West do.

It is EXACTLY this pandering BS that keeps those nations from ever having to step up and take responsibility for themselves - why should they, they have lots of Western enablers like you apologizing for their awful behavior, no matter how bad: "oh they're african/arab muslims, we expect them to do those things..." Muslims suicide bomb and we hear: "well, they're just using their bodies as " resistance ", as if no other people has ever faced political grievances before, it's just sickening.

All people, no matter what group, have the same understanding of justice and fairness, and as long as there are what I call subterranean racists like you running interference for them, excusing away or outright ignoring their bad actions, then they will never be under any pressure to stop behaving like barbarian animals and join civilized man.

Fortunately, enough people even on the Left have reached "aid fatigue" with Africa, and I can guarantee that this is a good thing for Africa as it will force them to start fixing their own countries without the collective Al Sharpton/UN aid groups patting them on the head tossing more grain while they slaughter.

You want to pick on Israel - fine, let's first address the 3 billion people under far worse oppression and poverty than any of the pal arabs will ever see or know.

 

[Saigon]

I don't give a pass for anyone - all killing of civilians is wrong and unacceptable, all use of detention without trial and collective punishment is wrong and unacceptable.

So then where are your complaints about the hundreds, if not thousands, of lebanese prisoners rotting in syrian jails, some of them for decades - held without trial indefinitely?

.

What are you talking about?

Have you ever seen me say anything positive about Assad or the events in Syria?

What is happening is appalling - (and I say that as someone who has Syrian friends who may well have been killed recently) how many times do you need me to say it before you understand it?

(btw, I am not a "leftist" and by and large I oppose development aid as a concept)

I do agree that there is an inherent contradiction in saying justice is a universal concept, and saying injustice is more understandable in poorer countries than wealthier ones. I also think the facts are contradictory. I do believe all countries should strive equally for justice and a lack of corruption, but I think countries in Finland have less excuses when systems fail than countries like Botswana do. We know that lack of education, lack or resources and poverty all contribute to corruption, and saying that they should not doesn't help. At one stage Rwanda had something like 650,000 people in prison, and 3 judges. Not all trials were free and fair - and we understand why not. Rwanda took action and is now doing well, btw.

 

[Billo_Really]

I do agree that there is an inherent contradiction in saying justice is a universal concept, and saying injustice is more understandable in poorer countries than wealthier ones. I also think the facts are contradictory. I do believe all countries should strive equally for justice and a lack of corruption, but I think countries in Finland have less excuses when systems fail than countries like Botswana do. We know that lack of education, lack or resources and poverty all contribute to corruption, and saying that they should not doesn't help. At one stage Rwanda had something like 650,000 people in prison, and 3 judges. Not all trials were free and fair - and we understand why not. Rwanda took action and is now doing well, btw.

Well, after the examples we've been setting for the last 10 years, we shouldn't be commenting on other country's injustice. Case in point, Rwanda may have 650,000 people in prison, we have over 2.5 million. The US has more people incarcerated than any other country in the world. Even more than Stalin's Russia. And 70% of the prison population, are there for non-violent crimes. Many there are due to mandatory sentencing related to drug laws.

And it gets worse! We are a country based on the rule of law, yet we don't enforce the law, when it comes to certain crimes and individuals. We used to be the beacon of democracy, now we're the mecca of hypocrisy! When Hillary Clinton went to the UN complained about human rights violations in Rwanda, the whole room broke out laughing! That's what we've become. A big fucking joke!

You can't talk about other country's injustice, when you've made it legal to "indefinately detain" your citizens, without any due process of law. All that is required, is someone at the Pentagon to classify you as an "unlawful enemy combatant" and you can be plucked off the street and held without charges, until the day you die and there's not a fucking thing you can do about it. No legal recourse or action is at your disposal, to question why you've been incarcerated.

Bush was pretty bad in compromising our Constitutional rights, but Obama will go down as the President who signed into law, the bill that officially killed our Constitution, as the Supreme Law of the Land.

President Obama’s signing of the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) whose Section 1021 sanctions the military detention of American citizens without charge, essentially aims to put the last nail in the coffin of our Constitution, our teetering Republic and our most basic democratic traditions.

And the point of all this, is crowd control, by outlawing dissent. They don't come out and say that directly, that would be a red flag that the nation would notice, instead, everything is interpreted through the paradigm of the "war on terror". Everything is related to terrorism, no matter how innocuous it may be.

Have you noticed whenever someone states something that is absolutely true, but isn't in line with (what were told) is the "popular sentiment" of the country, you're labeled a terrorist sympathizer.

Someone on another thread screamed, "Hamas is a terrorist organization". I responded, "Well, they also do street improvements". And they shot back, "Well, you're a terrorist sympathizer!" I mean, how ridiculous is that line of discourse?​

Since 9/11, everything is re-defined to pave the way for a totalitarian state.

suppressing popular resistance, dissent and protest, movements of peace and justice, [have been] recast as “civil disorder,” “civil disturbance” and “domestic terror.”

If Martin Luther King were alive today, most likely, he'd be a detainee at GITMO.

It really pisses me off people claiming to love this country, but support the Patriot and Military Commission's Act's. Yeah, they love the Constitution so much, they made it null and void.

 

[rhodescholar]

I do agree that there is an inherent contradiction in saying justice is a universal concept, and saying injustice is more understandable in poorer countries than wealthier ones. I also think the facts are contradictory. I do believe all countries should strive equally for justice and a lack of corruption, but I think countries in Finland have less excuses when systems fail than countries like Botswana do. We know that lack of education, lack or resources and poverty all contribute to corruption, and saying that they should not doesn't help. At one stage Rwanda had something like 650,000 people in prison, and 3 judges. Not all trials were free and fair - and we understand why not. Rwanda took action and is now doing well, btw.

Well, after the examples we've been setting for the last 10 years, we shouldn't be commenting on other country's injustice. Case in point, Rwanda may have 650,000 people in prison, we have over 2.5 million. The US has more people incarcerated than any other country in the world. Even more than Stalin's Russia. And 70% of the prison population, are there for non-violent crimes. Many there are due to mandatory sentencing related to drug laws.

And it gets worse! We are a country based on the rule of law, yet we don't enforce the law, when it comes to certain crimes and individuals. We used to be the beacon of democracy, now we're the mecca of hypocrisy! When Hillary Clinton went to the UN complained about human rights violations in Rwanda, the whole room broke out laughing! That's what we've become. A big fucking joke!

You can't talk about other country's injustice, when you've made it legal to "indefinately detain" your citizens, without any due process of law. All that is required, is someone at the Pentagon to classify you as an "unlawful enemy combatant" and you can be plucked off the street and held without charges, until the day you die and there's not a fucking thing you can do about it. No legal recourse or action is at your disposal, to question why you've been incarcerated.

Bush was pretty bad in compromising our Constitutional rights, but Obama will go down as the President who signed into law, the bill that officially killed our Constitution, as the Supreme Law of the Land.

President Obama’s signing of the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) whose Section 1021 sanctions the military detention of American citizens without charge, essentially aims to put the last nail in the coffin of our Constitution, our teetering Republic and our most basic democratic traditions.

And the point of all this, is crowd control, by outlawing dissent. They don't come out and say that directly, that would be a red flag that the nation would notice, instead, everything is interpreted through the paradigm of the "war on terror". Everything is related to terrorism, no matter how innocuous it may be.

Have you noticed whenever someone states something that is absolutely true, but isn't in line with (what were told) is the "popular sentiment" of the country, you're labeled a terrorist sympathizer.

Someone on another thread screamed, "Hamas is a terrorist organization". I responded, "Well, they also do street improvements". And they shot back, "Well, you're a terrorist sympathizer!" I mean, how ridiculous is that line of discourse?​

Since 9/11, everything is re-defined to pave the way for a totalitarian state.

suppressing popular resistance, dissent and protest, movements of peace and justice, [have been] recast as “civil disorder,” “civil disturbance” and “domestic terror.”

If Martin Luther King were alive today, most likely, he'd be a detainee at GITMO.

It really pisses me off people claiming to love this country, but support the Patriot and Military Commission's Act's. Yeah, they love the Constitution so much, they made it null and void.

Could you possibly be more fucking off-topic with this nonsense?

 

[rhodescholar]

What are you talking about? Have you ever seen me say anything positive about Assad or the events in Syria?

It is more than just syria - what are you and others on the Left saying about the other arab nations/africa, where the syrian events are replicated either in full or part on a daily basis?

I do agree that there is an inherent contradiction in saying justice is a universal concept, and saying injustice is more understandable in poorer countries than wealthier ones.

This is reverse racism, that poorer/non-whites have any less capability of understanding or applying justice, the rule of law, basic civili/human rights, etc. These countries are made of humans with the same genetic material you and I are, there is no reason that they should be excepted from the same responsibilities of anyone else.

We know that lack of education, lack or resources and poverty all contribute to corruption, and saying that they should not doesn't help. At one stage Rwanda had something like 650,000 people in prison, and 3 judges. Not all trials were free and fair - and we understand why not. Rwanda took action and is now doing well, btw.

And that is only one country, but one must ask: why did they choose only 3 judges? Was that the West's fault?

The dumbing down of expectations for non-Westerners is appalling and inexcusable, and it has led to the ridiculous reverse racist tendencies shown in your posts, the media and various international orgs like the UN where a tolerance for bad behavior from 3rd-world nations is to be excused due to some BS factor like poverty, etc. The US had a rule of law in the 1700s - and it was far from rich.

 

[Saigon]

Rhodes -

Rwanda only had 3 judges because the others had been slaughtered in the genocide.

The genocide that they west could have prevented by seizing known caches of weapons, but chose not to. In fact, the west (France) supplied the weapons.

Again, I am not on "the Left", whatever that means.

 

[Trajan]

And Palestinians stand upon such high moral ground where "human Rights" are concerned.

You do have a point there.

I usually read the Human Rights Watch reports each year, and they generally tear into both sides for numerous civil rights abuses.

As is so often the case with this conflict - neither side gets to be called the good guy.

really?cool, so whats their stance on the Cuban situation?

 

[Artevelde]

Artevelde - So because Assad is killing people in Syria, it is ok for Israel to kill a few. Silly, silly posting.

In what context was those people killed? What were the circumstances?

When people like you stop giving a pass to the 500 MM arabs for their bad behaviour, I'll be willing to take a look at what those pesky 4 MM jews are doing...

I don't give a pass for anyone - all killing of civilians is wrong and unacceptable, all use of detention without trial and collective punishment is wrong and unacceptable.

The failure of justice is a universal value, but it is easier for me to understand justice fails in Congo, Nigeria or Libya than it is in Finland, the US or Israel.

We set ourselves higher standards.

If Israel's defence is 'We are better than Syria' then there is little hope for Israel.

Says the person who thinks it is legitimate for terrorists to blow up US military personnel.

 

[theliq]

If Palestinians put down their weapons, there would be peace.

If Israelis put down their weapons, there would be another holocaust.

In the light of this truth, one should judge the charges.

Bloody don't think so.

 

[Saigon]

]

Says the person who thinks it is legitimate for terrorists to blow up US military personnel.

Really? Who said that?

I know it wasn't me...!

 

[Artevelde]

]

Says the person who thinks it is legitimate for terrorists to blow up US military personnel.

Really? Who said that?

I know it wasn't me...!

I quote from your last posting in the thread on muslim attitudes towards terror and the US:

"Terror attacks against military targets may be, in some cases, something I would consider completely abhorent. In other cases, they may be something I would consider a fairly legitimate act of self defense.

I look at the polling on attitudes towards attacks on US troops in the Gulf, and just didn't find them particularly remarkable."

You are not only an pologist for terrorist but apparently also a liar.

 

[Saigon]

Artevelde -

The curious thing is, I could think of 3 or 4 instances where you would very likely also consider strikes against military targets to be legitimate acts of self defense, but at the moment you seem so completely hysterical that it isn't possible to even attempt rational debate.

I've put you on ignore mode as, frankly, the stalking has started to become a bit creepy. If you are at any stage interested in discussing this issue honestly, then PM me and I'll take you off.

btw, It might be worth checking the board policy on neg-repping - neg-repping someone every day for no apparent reason is not how the system is intended to be used.

 

[Artevelde]

Artevelde -

The curious thing is, I could think of 3 or 4 instances where you would very likely also consider strikes against military targets to be legitimate acts of self defense, but at the moment you seem so completely hysterical that it isn't possible to even attempt rational debate.

I've put you on ignore mode as, frankly, the stalking has started to become a bit creepy. If you are at any stage interested in discussing this issue honestly, then PM me and I'll take you off.

btw, It might be worth checking the board policy on neg-repping - neg-repping someone every day for no apparent reason is not how the system is intended to be used.

I would never consider terrorist attacks by terrorist organizations against military targets as anything else than terrorism. You purposely try to conflate terrorist attacks and the military actions of a legitimate state. You are simply a liar and a terrorist supporter.