Why should WE give up anything?
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Amnesty...? Not so much...
- Thread starter Bullypulpit
- Start date
Why should WE give up anything?
Truthmatters
Diamond Member
- May 10, 2007
- 80,182
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- Banned
- #62
Mitigating Circumstance. A mitigating circumstance is one that alleviates, reduces, abates, or diminishes a penalty or punishment imposed by law. It is not an excuse, but it can be considered in fairness and mercy as extenuating or reducing the degree of moral culpability.
Gunny
Gold Member
There should be NO amnesty to begin with. If your here illegally you should be deported. That they keep wanting to provide some sort of Amnesty is an attempt to win votes from Hispanic groups.
What is needed as you stated is the current laws ENFORCED. Fine the companies that use illegals, Fine the Corporations, Fine the Officers of the Companies. Seal the border, tell States to either enforce the immigration laws of the country or no Federal Funds will be delivered. Arrest and charge any City official that passes illegal ordinances to protect illegals with appropriate charges. Tell States that allow illegals to get drivers license that they will get no Federal Funds.
Minor detail: The Fed assumes responsibility for border enforcement. It is not a responsibility of the state. Not that I agree with that, but ... I also don't agree with holding the states accountable for something in which they have no authority.
City ordnances/state laws that contradict Federal law, are not legal to begin with.
Round up , document and deport any illegal we can. 2nd offense make camps and jail them for 6 months, 3rd offense make them serve 2 years in jail. And to help defray the cost? Force Mexico to either help stop the flow, to take action against serial illegals or start fining them and collecting the fines from Mexican assets in this country.
As for armed incursions into the US, order the National Guard to patrol and respond to Any armed drug dealer or illegal. Put Border Guards in National Guard units patrolling the borders and pass a law that designates x many miles from the border an area the Guard and military can operate.
It is a National Security Issue. The border is so porous nuclear weapons could be smuggled across and only pure luck would stop it. An army of terrorists could easily enter the country armed to the teeth.
Once the Border is sealed, IF we need Mexicans for work in the country, create an guest pass system and require the people hiring them to come collect them , be responsible for them and ensure they return to Mexico when the work/contract is done. And ensure US law is enforced so these workers get proper pay and care from the employer while here.
Problem is, once you make workers legal, the benefit of not paying taxes for the workers and the benefit of paying below minimum wage salaries for the employers are gone.
Those that actually go through the process just become more of the Nations's poor, while even more illegals fill the cash-paying, no-tax jobs they used to fill.
Problem is, once you make workers legal, the benefit of not paying taxes for the workers and the benefit of paying below minimum wage salaries for the employers are gone.
Those that actually go through the process just become more of the Nations's poor, while even more illegals fill the cash-paying, no-tax jobs they used to fill.
And thus the problem goes away all on its own..... We have to shut down the porous border. Something NO ONE in either party wants to do. Something NO ONE in either party has EVER wanted to do.
Truthmatters
Diamond Member
- May 10, 2007
- 80,182
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Gunny
Gold Member
And thus the problem goes away all on its own..... We have to shut down the porous border. Something NO ONE in either party wants to do. Something NO ONE in either party has EVER wanted to do.
A 20 ft high, 4 ft thick, 10 ft deep cinder wall filled withe cement and topped with glass and conertina wire, mined on either side for a half-mile and motion sensors/video sureveillance every 50 ft would do okay for me.
Gunny
Gold Member
What's your point? Service in the US military as a means to earning US citizenship has been offered as far back as I can remember. There was a Nigerian in my platoon in boot camp 27 years ago for that very reason.
Your attempted implication is dishonest. This Marine was doing it the RIGHT. LEGAL way. You don't hear anyone bitching about THAT.
CSM
Senior Member
Nice try but he was LEGALLY in this country with permanent residency:
At 14, with his parents dead, Gutierrez followed the path of 700,000 of his countrymen to California. He made the 2,000-mile journey from his Guatemala City neighborhood without entry papers. He hopped 14 freight trains to get through Mexico. U.S. immigration authorities detained him.
Fernando Castillo, Guatemalas consul general in Los Angeles, says the United States doesnt deport Guatemalan minors who arrive without family. Gutierrez was made a ward of Los Angeles Juvenile Court. He was placed in a series of group homes and foster families. He learned English and finished high school.
When he reached 18, he got residency documents, Castillo said.
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/256506.html
Big difference between this man's record and what you were trying to imply. By the way, I guess we now know how you feel about exploiting the dead for political purposes! Thanks for sharing.
kurtsprincess
Active Member
see what I mean?
You are stuck in this one single mind set which will not allow you to even examine the whole issue.
Illegals are illegals partly because thier is no legal way they can get here.
Do you realise the waiting list is like 18 years long?
When you are starving and your mom is breaking her back to feed your Grandma and you little bros and sisters and their is NO work for you and you hear if you go to this town you will get enough money from digging ditches to send to them so they can all eat what would you do?
By not recogizing that they are in some very extreme conditions and doing this is an avenue like no other they have, you are refusing to examine all the facts like a rational being.
This is the same mindset that gives us "oh we cant examine why they hate us ,that is treason".
I suggest that you immigrate to Mexico and teach these people how to protest their government and get their own government to take care of them instead of expecting our government to take care of them.
As for why they hate us ---- totally misdirected..........they should be hating themselves for not having the gumption to stand up to their own corrupt government and make changes within. Instead, they immigrate here and protest our government for rights they don't have......absolutely, totally mindboggling.
And, just some food for thought.........I believe the majority of them don't want to become citizens of the United States. They want to just come here and work and send the money home. They have no intentions of committing themselves to America any longer than they have to in order to put enough money away to live quite well in their home country.
Seems to me like YOU need to examine all the facts like a rational human being. Until Mexico changes its culture and government, there will be an endless supply of people wanting to get into the US ...... we might as well annex Mexico.
red states rule
Senior Member
- May 30, 2006
- 16,011
- 573
- 48
Bush Immigration Reform a Recipe for Genocide
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Stirring words engraved upon a statue given to us by France (merci, guys!). But our Founding Fathers would be sickened by how far weve strayed from those principles.
In a so-called Immigration Reform Deal that Republicans insist is amnesty for undocumented workers (an obvious ploy to get liberal Democrats like Ted Kennedy and John McCain on board) the huddled masses that traversed scorching desert wastelands, swam turd-infested waters, and dodged racial-profiling border guards might eventually maybe someday be asked to cough up $5000 in fines to enjoy the same citizenship privileges that rich white people automatically get just for being born here.
Yo, Bush! In case you hadnt noticed, these people are DIRT POOR! You and your Big Oil Buddies may be able to pull that kind of money out of your asses, but 5000 bucks may as well be a million to your average Latino landscaper. When forced to make the tough choice between becoming citizens, feeding their families, or upgrading the hydraulics on their lowriders, what do you think most impoverished immigrants will choose?
Unless this bill includes some sort of provision to provide free lowriders for undocumented workers, then Bushs Path to Citizenship will be nothing more than a Death March to Starvation.
http://blamebush.typepad.com/
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Stirring words engraved upon a statue given to us by France (merci, guys!). But our Founding Fathers would be sickened by how far weve strayed from those principles.
In a so-called Immigration Reform Deal that Republicans insist is amnesty for undocumented workers (an obvious ploy to get liberal Democrats like Ted Kennedy and John McCain on board) the huddled masses that traversed scorching desert wastelands, swam turd-infested waters, and dodged racial-profiling border guards might eventually maybe someday be asked to cough up $5000 in fines to enjoy the same citizenship privileges that rich white people automatically get just for being born here.
Yo, Bush! In case you hadnt noticed, these people are DIRT POOR! You and your Big Oil Buddies may be able to pull that kind of money out of your asses, but 5000 bucks may as well be a million to your average Latino landscaper. When forced to make the tough choice between becoming citizens, feeding their families, or upgrading the hydraulics on their lowriders, what do you think most impoverished immigrants will choose?
Unless this bill includes some sort of provision to provide free lowriders for undocumented workers, then Bushs Path to Citizenship will be nothing more than a Death March to Starvation.
http://blamebush.typepad.com/
red states rule
Senior Member
- May 30, 2006
- 16,011
- 573
- 48
The Amnesty Fraud: Part II
By Thomas Sowell
Every aspect of the current immigration bill, and of the arguments made for it, has Fraud written all over it.
The first, and perhaps biggest, fraud is the argument that illegal aliens are "doing jobs Americans won't do." There are no such jobs.
Even in the sector of the economy in which illegal immigrants have the highest representation -- agriculture -- they are just 24 percent of the workers. Where did the other 76 percent come from, if these are jobs that Americans won't do?
The argument that illegal agricultural workers are "making a contribution to the economy" is likewise misleading.
For well over half a century, this country has had chronic agricultural surpluses which have cost the taxpayers billions of dollars a year to buy, store, and try to get rid of on the world market at money-losing prices.
If there were fewer agricultural workers and smaller agricultural surpluses, the taxpayers would save money.
What about illegal immigrants working outside of agriculture? They are a great bargain for their employers, because they are usually hard-working people who accept low pay and don't cause any trouble on the job.
But they are no bargain for the taxpayers who cover their medical bills, the education of their children and the costs of imprisoning those who commit a disproportionate share of crime.
Analogies with immigrants who came to this country in the 19th century and early 20th century are hollow, and those who make such analogies must know how different the situation is today.
People who crossed an ocean to get here, many generations ago, usually came here to become Americans. There were organized efforts within their communities, as well as in the larger society around them, to help them assimilate.
Today, there are activists working in just the opposite direction, to keep foreigners foreign, to demand that society adjust to them by making everything accessible to them in their own language, minimizing their need to learn English.
As activists are working hard to keep alive a foreign subculture in so-called "bilingual" and other programs, they are also feeding the young especially with a steady diet of historic grievances about things that happened before the immigrants got here -- and before they were born.
These Balkanization efforts are joined by other Americans as part of the "multicultural" ideology that pervades the education system, the media, and politics.
The ease with which people can move back and forth between the United States and Mexico -- as contrasted with those who made a one-way trip across the Atlantic in earlier times -- reduces still further the likelihood that these new immigrants will assimilate and become an integral part of the American society as readily as many earlier immigrants did.
Claims that the new immigration bill will have "tough" requirements, including learning English, have little credibility in view of the way existing laws are not being enforced.
What does "learning English" mean? I can say "arrivederci" and "buongiorno" but does that mean that I speak Italian?
Does anyone expect a serious effort to require a real knowledge of English from a government that captures people trying to enter the country illegally and then turns them loose inside the United States with instructions to report back to court -- which of course they are not about to do?
Another fraudulent argument for the new immigration bill is that it would facilitate the "unification of families." People can unify their families by going back home to them. Otherwise every illegal immigrant accepted can mean a dozen relatives to follow.
"What can we do with the 12 million people already here illegally?" is the question asked by amnesty supporters. We can stop them from becoming 40 million or 50 million, the way 3 million illegals became 12 million after the previous amnesty.
The most fundamental question of all has not been asked: Who should decide how many people, with what qualifications and prospects, are to be admitted into this country? Is that decision supposed to be made by anyone in Mexico who wants to come here?
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/05/the_amnesty_fraud_part_ii.html
By Thomas Sowell
Every aspect of the current immigration bill, and of the arguments made for it, has Fraud written all over it.
The first, and perhaps biggest, fraud is the argument that illegal aliens are "doing jobs Americans won't do." There are no such jobs.
Even in the sector of the economy in which illegal immigrants have the highest representation -- agriculture -- they are just 24 percent of the workers. Where did the other 76 percent come from, if these are jobs that Americans won't do?
The argument that illegal agricultural workers are "making a contribution to the economy" is likewise misleading.
For well over half a century, this country has had chronic agricultural surpluses which have cost the taxpayers billions of dollars a year to buy, store, and try to get rid of on the world market at money-losing prices.
If there were fewer agricultural workers and smaller agricultural surpluses, the taxpayers would save money.
What about illegal immigrants working outside of agriculture? They are a great bargain for their employers, because they are usually hard-working people who accept low pay and don't cause any trouble on the job.
But they are no bargain for the taxpayers who cover their medical bills, the education of their children and the costs of imprisoning those who commit a disproportionate share of crime.
Analogies with immigrants who came to this country in the 19th century and early 20th century are hollow, and those who make such analogies must know how different the situation is today.
People who crossed an ocean to get here, many generations ago, usually came here to become Americans. There were organized efforts within their communities, as well as in the larger society around them, to help them assimilate.
Today, there are activists working in just the opposite direction, to keep foreigners foreign, to demand that society adjust to them by making everything accessible to them in their own language, minimizing their need to learn English.
As activists are working hard to keep alive a foreign subculture in so-called "bilingual" and other programs, they are also feeding the young especially with a steady diet of historic grievances about things that happened before the immigrants got here -- and before they were born.
These Balkanization efforts are joined by other Americans as part of the "multicultural" ideology that pervades the education system, the media, and politics.
The ease with which people can move back and forth between the United States and Mexico -- as contrasted with those who made a one-way trip across the Atlantic in earlier times -- reduces still further the likelihood that these new immigrants will assimilate and become an integral part of the American society as readily as many earlier immigrants did.
Claims that the new immigration bill will have "tough" requirements, including learning English, have little credibility in view of the way existing laws are not being enforced.
What does "learning English" mean? I can say "arrivederci" and "buongiorno" but does that mean that I speak Italian?
Does anyone expect a serious effort to require a real knowledge of English from a government that captures people trying to enter the country illegally and then turns them loose inside the United States with instructions to report back to court -- which of course they are not about to do?
Another fraudulent argument for the new immigration bill is that it would facilitate the "unification of families." People can unify their families by going back home to them. Otherwise every illegal immigrant accepted can mean a dozen relatives to follow.
"What can we do with the 12 million people already here illegally?" is the question asked by amnesty supporters. We can stop them from becoming 40 million or 50 million, the way 3 million illegals became 12 million after the previous amnesty.
The most fundamental question of all has not been asked: Who should decide how many people, with what qualifications and prospects, are to be admitted into this country? Is that decision supposed to be made by anyone in Mexico who wants to come here?
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/05/the_amnesty_fraud_part_ii.html
red states rule
Senior Member
- May 30, 2006
- 16,011
- 573
- 48
No Blood for Lettuce
Posted by Mark Finkelstein on May 23, 2007 - 08:20.
The American left loves to chant "no blood for oil." But those same liberals would eagerly sacrifice American interests in the name of . . . a cheaper Caesar salad.
Take this morning's report on CNN which came at about 7:35 am EDT. Entitled "Farm-Fresh Problems," the segment, narrated by CNN's Chris Lawrence, focused on the lack of illegal immigrant labor to harvest California's fruit and vegetable crops.
CNN REPORTER CHRIS LAWRENCE: California harvests about half the nation's fruits and vegetables and every summer, farmers need half-a-million workers to pick those crops. But the crackdown on illegal immigrants is keeping workers out of their fields, leaving unpicked fruit left to rot.
HENRY VEGA [California farmer]: They're definitely worried about being raided and deported.
http://newsbusters.org/node/12948
Posted by Mark Finkelstein on May 23, 2007 - 08:20.
The American left loves to chant "no blood for oil." But those same liberals would eagerly sacrifice American interests in the name of . . . a cheaper Caesar salad.
Take this morning's report on CNN which came at about 7:35 am EDT. Entitled "Farm-Fresh Problems," the segment, narrated by CNN's Chris Lawrence, focused on the lack of illegal immigrant labor to harvest California's fruit and vegetable crops.
CNN REPORTER CHRIS LAWRENCE: California harvests about half the nation's fruits and vegetables and every summer, farmers need half-a-million workers to pick those crops. But the crackdown on illegal immigrants is keeping workers out of their fields, leaving unpicked fruit left to rot.
HENRY VEGA [California farmer]: They're definitely worried about being raided and deported.
http://newsbusters.org/node/12948
- Jan 8, 2007
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Why should WE give up anything?
ILL remember that when you post in the palestine&isreal forum.
funny how perspective changes your position in regards to an indegenous claim to land...
I guess neither of the other suggestion tickled your fancy either, eh?
ILL remember that when you post in the palestine&isreal forum.
funny how perspective changes your position in regards to an indegenous claim to land...
I guess neither of the other suggestion tickled your fancy either, eh?
I was VERY clear on my OPINION. Seal the borders and kick out illegals, Fine and jail those citizens that won't follow the law. I see NO reason to make any concessions to illegal aliens for ANY reason.
Using your logic we should go cede territory in our cities to gangs that run them, police should just allow those gangs free reign and total control in the designated neighborhoods and not intervene between rivals when they war, unless they leave their respective enclaves. Solves all kind of problems ehh?
I was VERY clear on my OPINION. Seal the borders and kick out illegals, Fine and jail those citizens that won't follow the law. I see NO reason to make any concessions to illegal aliens for ANY reason.
Using your logic we should go cede territory in our cities to gangs that run them, police should just allow those gangs free reign and total control in the designated neighborhoods and not intervene between rivals when they war, unless they leave their respective enclaves. Solves all kind of problems ehh?
Makes sense. By some estimates, more than 50% of gang members in California are illegal immigrants.
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"I was VERY clear on my OPINION. Seal the borders and kick out illegals, Fine and jail those citizens that won't follow the law. I see NO reason to make any concessions to illegal aliens for ANY reason."
jail 12 millions, eh? yea.. THATS a workable solution.. Thank god WE are the only ones who deserve to be able to round up and kick out percieved usurpers, eh dude? hell, WHY make concessions even if their ancestors came from the very same land that you are currently living in? It's not like some western nations will come along and support a mexicans right to reclaim the American Southwest, right? Furthermore, if the latino population DID actually try to take back their homeland you sure wouldnt be right there egging on a violent reaction, would you? nooooo...
"Using your logic we should go cede territory in our cities to gangs that run them, police should just allow those gangs free reign and total control in the designated neighborhoods and not intervene between rivals when they war, unless they leave their respective enclaves. Solves all kind of problems ehh?"
are you comparing jews and mexicans to GANGS??? holy shit, dude.. talk about a slip of the tongue! Did your thick skull hinder my words on their way to your neuron-vacant brain? GANGS ARE NOT NATIONALITIES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE JUST AS MUCH OF A CLAIM TO OUR SOUTHWEST AS JEWS DO TO ISRAEL.
you can ponder that while trying to figure out how to rationalize the use of human shields against "mexicans" whose only purpose is to start shit with the good white people of the US.
jail 12 millions, eh? yea.. THATS a workable solution.. Thank god WE are the only ones who deserve to be able to round up and kick out percieved usurpers, eh dude? hell, WHY make concessions even if their ancestors came from the very same land that you are currently living in? It's not like some western nations will come along and support a mexicans right to reclaim the American Southwest, right? Furthermore, if the latino population DID actually try to take back their homeland you sure wouldnt be right there egging on a violent reaction, would you? nooooo...
"Using your logic we should go cede territory in our cities to gangs that run them, police should just allow those gangs free reign and total control in the designated neighborhoods and not intervene between rivals when they war, unless they leave their respective enclaves. Solves all kind of problems ehh?"
are you comparing jews and mexicans to GANGS??? holy shit, dude.. talk about a slip of the tongue! Did your thick skull hinder my words on their way to your neuron-vacant brain? GANGS ARE NOT NATIONALITIES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE JUST AS MUCH OF A CLAIM TO OUR SOUTHWEST AS JEWS DO TO ISRAEL.
you can ponder that while trying to figure out how to rationalize the use of human shields against "mexicans" whose only purpose is to start shit with the good white people of the US.
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Makes sense. By some estimates, more than 50% of gang members in California are illegal immigrants.
indeed.. we've had gangs in the US since day one from tea parties to Bloods and cryps but....
....somehow it's the illegal mexicans that give us gangs...
Comparing what Israel should do to what we should do or vice versa is Ludicrous, but then YOU already know that.
We could also just legalize and tax murder and drugs, there goes the crime rate.
last I checked I said KICK them out, so your 12 million is a strawman.
We could also just legalize and tax murder and drugs, there goes the crime rate.
last I checked I said KICK them out, so your 12 million is a strawman.
indeed.. we've had gangs in the US since day one from tea parties to Bloods and cryps but....
....somehow it's the illegal mexicans that give us gangs...
I don't think I have specifically referred to any nationality in my posts. I have made it a point to use a generic, all encompassing term rather than single out one nationality. My concerns are not with Mexican or Central American illegal immigration alone but with the illegal immigration of all nationalities.
I recognize that there have been gangs since the beginning of time, I recognize that Hispanic immigrants are not the only people joining and starting gangs. There are Vietnamese gangs, Japanese gangs, White and Black gangs, Jewish, Italian, Irish gangs. My post simply stated that, by some estimates, more than 50% of the gang members in California are illegal immigrants. Now, of that number, how many are from Mexico or Central America? I don't know, but I'd be willing to bet that the number is more that 50% of that 50%.
Nowhere have I insinuated that it is Mexicans and Mexicans alone who give us gangs. Again, I have deliberately avoided singling out any one nationality when discussing the issue of illegal immigration except where the discussion has dealt with the specific topic of controlling our southern border and why neither party is willing to do more to secure it.
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Comparing what Israel should do to what we should do or vice versa is Ludicrous, but then YOU already know that.
We could also just legalize and tax murder and drugs, there goes the crime rate.
last I checked I said KICK them out, so your 12 million is a strawman.
of COURSE....
comparing ANYTHING that the US or ISrael does with the exact same lethal behaviour found in the actions of those we demonize is ALWAYS caraaaazy....
uh.. so, are you saying that illegal mexicans are just up here to murder white people and give drugs to playground kids? Gee.. can you imagine your reaction to anyone suggesting the same thing about jews in THEIR new homeland?
Last I saw you havent provided the slightest strategy to dig em out besides some lame fucking mehlman talking point. I tell you what.. you dress up like Dogg the bounty hunter and take it upon yourself to flush out 12 million mexicans in the US and save the US taxpayer the time, trouble and expense... SURELY william f buckley can get behind that!
or just sit there like steinbecks Lennie and pet your damn mouse.
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