Amnesty Internationa: China executed more people in 2016, than all other nations combined.

[Vikrant]

Where is your evidence that he dislikes Chinese government? He does not approve of Chinese government but there is no evidence that he dislikes Chinese government. Frankly, I cannot imagine any human being with fully functioning conscience approving Chinese government's blatant tortures, murders and genocides.

He's in exile. Why would you be in exile if you like the Chinese govt?

No, I can't imagine that either. Nor can I imagine anyone approving of the US's foreign policy over the last 100 years or so, and yet 75% or more of Americans DO APPROVE. Beggars belief, but what you find is that there are people who will approve of bad things all the time.

Note, I have never said I approve of torture, of executions, of genocide or any of these other things. We're not talking about what I believe, we're talking about what we know. Now genocide by the Chinese govt, well, that's not hard to prove.

US government is more transparent than Chinese government. So you get to hear about the ills of US government quite often. You do not have the same luxury about the Chinese government.

He is in exile because he does not want to participate in inhumane ventures of Chinese government. Even if he dislikes Chinese government, that in itself does not make him less credible as long as his dislike is based on rational reasons such as Chinese government's targeting of Falun Gong members for organ harvesting.

Can you prove that his dislike is based on anything else but the crimes of Chinese government?

Yes, it is. That doesn't mean things don't happen that shouldn't happen.

Bush managed to go to war with false intel, how did he do this? Well, because not everything in the US is so transparent. Lots of things happen that we don't know about. What about the Democrat worker who got killed? How did he get killed?

There are rumors, but facts?

How many people do you know who have been exiled, and use the term "exiled" (because I'm making a strong assumption that he's using this term himself rather than the Chinese govt) and actually like the government from the country they're exiled from?

I did not say US government was perfect. Compared to Chinese government though, US government is embodiment of an angel.

---

On a separate note, here is another report on Chinese government's organ harvesting:

China’s Ugly Side: Activists Say Nation Still Harvests Prisoners’ Organs

A local Florida newspaper reported this week that a group called Falun Gong will be protesting outside of Mar-a-Lag as Chinese President Xi Jinping meets with President Donald Trump, and referred to a “dispute” between Xi and the spiritual group.

“Dispute” is wildly inaccurate. The Chinese Communist Party, which Xi heads, has been murdering members of Falun Gong and stealing their organs, according to a 600-page report by Canadian researchers, and not always in that order: The organs are sometimes cut out while the person is still alive, according to those trying to sound alarm bells.

And the number of murders committed by Xi’s communists may be as high as 100,000 a year, according to some human-rights activists – a slaughter of human beings, one that most Americans hear almost nothing about.

Dr. Charles Lee, a Falun Gong practitioner who is now an American citizen living in New Jersey, spent three years in a Chinese prison, forced to labor every day making Homer Simpson slippers for the U.S. market. But he recounts a story worse than his forced-labor prison term.

in 1990, when he was studying to be a doctor in China, he was once inside what he says was a mobile execution van, and waited while a doctor cut the heart out of a prisoner while the man was still alive.

...

China’s Ugly Side: Activists Say Nation Still Harvests Prisoners’ Organs

No, I would doubt the US is the embodiment of an angel.

In terms of dealing with their own people, the US is better, but better doesn't necessarily mean good. You have how the US govt deals with Native Americans. However that's not really the point here.

I'm not saying the Chinese govt is in any way good. What I'm getting at is that people are willing to come on here and make accusations that they can't back up. Then later they'll go off on one about fake news, saying how bad it is.

Your dishonesty has reached its pinnacle now. I have provided you several links that clearly cite sources from China that have witnessed execution of innocent prisoners of conscience for the purpose of organ harvesting. It seems like your mind is already made-up on this subject. There is a psychology at play here: people tend to flock and identify with like minded people. It seems like you identify with Chinese regime. I do not see any other explanation for your refusal to accept the crimes of Chinese government for what they are -- crimes against humanity.

 

[Vikrant]

The bigot ^^^^^^^ goes ape-shit if anyone doesn't share his frothing hatred.

Act like an adult or stay out.

 

[Unkotare]

Some people can't have a reasonable discussion because they insist their bigotry be respected. It won't, of course.

 

[frigidweirdo]

He's in exile. Why would you be in exile if you like the Chinese govt?

No, I can't imagine that either. Nor can I imagine anyone approving of the US's foreign policy over the last 100 years or so, and yet 75% or more of Americans DO APPROVE. Beggars belief, but what you find is that there are people who will approve of bad things all the time.

Note, I have never said I approve of torture, of executions, of genocide or any of these other things. We're not talking about what I believe, we're talking about what we know. Now genocide by the Chinese govt, well, that's not hard to prove.

US government is more transparent than Chinese government. So you get to hear about the ills of US government quite often. You do not have the same luxury about the Chinese government.

He is in exile because he does not want to participate in inhumane ventures of Chinese government. Even if he dislikes Chinese government, that in itself does not make him less credible as long as his dislike is based on rational reasons such as Chinese government's targeting of Falun Gong members for organ harvesting.

Can you prove that his dislike is based on anything else but the crimes of Chinese government?

Yes, it is. That doesn't mean things don't happen that shouldn't happen.

Bush managed to go to war with false intel, how did he do this? Well, because not everything in the US is so transparent. Lots of things happen that we don't know about. What about the Democrat worker who got killed? How did he get killed?

There are rumors, but facts?

How many people do you know who have been exiled, and use the term "exiled" (because I'm making a strong assumption that he's using this term himself rather than the Chinese govt) and actually like the government from the country they're exiled from?

I did not say US government was perfect. Compared to Chinese government though, US government is embodiment of an angel.

---

On a separate note, here is another report on Chinese government's organ harvesting:

China’s Ugly Side: Activists Say Nation Still Harvests Prisoners’ Organs

A local Florida newspaper reported this week that a group called Falun Gong will be protesting outside of Mar-a-Lag as Chinese President Xi Jinping meets with President Donald Trump, and referred to a “dispute” between Xi and the spiritual group.

“Dispute” is wildly inaccurate. The Chinese Communist Party, which Xi heads, has been murdering members of Falun Gong and stealing their organs, according to a 600-page report by Canadian researchers, and not always in that order: The organs are sometimes cut out while the person is still alive, according to those trying to sound alarm bells.

And the number of murders committed by Xi’s communists may be as high as 100,000 a year, according to some human-rights activists – a slaughter of human beings, one that most Americans hear almost nothing about.

Dr. Charles Lee, a Falun Gong practitioner who is now an American citizen living in New Jersey, spent three years in a Chinese prison, forced to labor every day making Homer Simpson slippers for the U.S. market. But he recounts a story worse than his forced-labor prison term.

in 1990, when he was studying to be a doctor in China, he was once inside what he says was a mobile execution van, and waited while a doctor cut the heart out of a prisoner while the man was still alive.

...

China’s Ugly Side: Activists Say Nation Still Harvests Prisoners’ Organs

No, I would doubt the US is the embodiment of an angel.

In terms of dealing with their own people, the US is better, but better doesn't necessarily mean good. You have how the US govt deals with Native Americans. However that's not really the point here.

I'm not saying the Chinese govt is in any way good. What I'm getting at is that people are willing to come on here and make accusations that they can't back up. Then later they'll go off on one about fake news, saying how bad it is.

Your dishonesty has reached its pinnacle now. I have provided you several links that clearly cite sources from China that have witnessed execution of innocent prisoners of conscience for the purpose of organ harvesting. It seems like your mind is already made-up on this subject. There is a psychology at play here: people tend to flock and identify with like minded people. It seems like you identify with Chinese regime. I do not see any other explanation for your refusal to accept the crimes of Chinese government for what they are -- crimes against humanity.

Yes, you provided sources. Sources don't always tell the truth. Sources aren't the be all and end all. You need sources to back up your claims,.

LifeZette isn't exactly the best source. It's a conservative rag. It's biased.

Also, what it's saying isn't something that is being disputed here. We're not discussing whether China takes organs from prisoners.
Also we're not talking about whether they're persecuting the Falon Gong.

The issue here would be the vocab used.

"The Chinese Communist Party, which Xi heads, has been murdering members of Falun Gong and stealing their organs,"

Murdering? Is carrying out executions murder?

Does the US murder inmates?

Actually the language here is provocative. It's designed to make you think something bad. China has rules, and it has punishment to those crimes. Being a member of the Falun Gong is against the law. People who then practice Falon Gong are therefore breaking the law.

The issue here is whether you agree with the law or not, and whether you think the punishment fits the crime.

The problem is this source you have is telling you not to agree with this, using manipulative language to hide this fact, and make you feel outrage.

The fact that they say "he number of murders committed by Xi’s communists may be as high as 100,000 a year, according to some human-rights activists"

According to some? According to who? It doesn't say. It's just easier to point to the highest figures and say "some" say this. Fine, just because someone says something, doesn't make it true. Unless you're reading this article objectively, you might think that 100,000 people a year are being killed, and you'd also probably suspect that this number is just Fulan Gong, but I'd assume that this number is the number of executions across the board, but again, not data to back any of this up. Just "what people said"

"Dr. Charles Lee, a Falun Gong practitioner who is now an American citizen living in New Jersey, spent three years in a Chinese prison, forced to labor every day making Homer Simpson slippers for the U.S. market. "

Right, so, the Chinese govt is persecuting Fulan Gong. Okay. This guy went to prison for 3 years for breaking the law. Not unheard of in the US to go to prison for your political beliefs. Leonard Peltier has spend 30 something years, mostly in solitary in US prisons because of his beliefs.
But if the Chinese govt is executing 100,000 Fulan Gong members a year and harvesting their organs, how is it that this guy was released from prison? Surely he'd have been executed and harvested.

"in 1990, when he was studying to be a doctor in China, he was once inside what he says was a mobile execution van, and waited while a doctor cut the heart out of a prisoner while the man was still alive."

Okay, this was 1990. A lot has changed in China since 1990.
Second, do you think this guy has a grudge against the Chinese govt? Do you think this guy is a reliable witness? Do you think he wouldn't make stuff up? Well... I'd say he's a pretty poor source, but none the less a source. But you can't just use one source to come to an opinion here. You'd need other sources, sources that aren't Falon Gong members, others who weren't prisoners of the Chinese to collaborate such stuff.

"Also testifying at the hearing was David Matas, a Canadian human-rights lawyer and co-author of a report called “Blood Harvest,” which laid out detailed evidence of a larger slaughter of Chinese citizens for their organs than anyone had previously documented."

Kilgour–Matas report - Wikipedia

The report which David Matas helped produce, was requested by the Falon Gong. So... you have your first problem here. Everything is connected to a group that the Chinese govt has as illegal, and which is fighting the Chinese govt.

"The report, based on circumstantial evidence"

Yes, it's all based on circumstantial evidence. Almost certainly every one of these cases was a person from the Falon Gong who came out of the system ALIVE.

So the problem you have is that you're providing sources, but the sources need to be taken into the context that they are.

For you to come at me with "Your dishonesty has reached its pinnacle now." is ridiculous. I haven't been dishonest at all. I just know how to read sources, I know how to interpret what is being said to understand what I know, and what people want me to think. That's not dishonest. It would be more dishonest to start believing everything one side tells you and ignore everything the other side tells you.

I can form my own opinions of what a situation is, by looking at LOTS of evidence and coming to a conclusion. You haven't done this, you've provided a few biased sources and that's it.

 

[Vikrant]

^

There are going to be people who will attack good souls like Gandhi. Similarly, there are going to be people who will defend monsters like Churchill who killed and tortured millions of people across Asia and Africa. It all depends on your values and what you identify yourself with. If you identify yourself with the values of the Chinese government then you are going to defend China.

I am very well aware of the fact that there are good number of news outlets that are nothing but propaganda machines. Therefore, I cross examine any given report using various news sources and people who have first hand experience with the subject of the report.

As far as China is concerned, there is a consistency in the human rights allegations against it. It is in the process of a continuing genocide in Tibet. It is brutally occupying and oppressing Uyghurs. It is executing Falun Gong members. I have studied in depth about China's political system of purge.

These are all indicators of a society that has failed to instantiate basic human ideals. I am not blaming Chinese people for they are the first victims of the Chinese government. I sympathize with them. I hope that they will find courage and strength to take control of China for the betterment of China, Asia and the world at large.

 

[Unkotare]

All bigots share in common the absolute conviction that they are justified.



Without more information about the specific cases involved, it's hard to pass judgement over a particular sentencing. Seems safe to say it is ill-advised to commit any number of crimes in China - not famous as a bastion of tolerance and forbearance.