Americas outraged--Boston Tea party coming!

[editec]

Oreo is obviously the only one in this thread so far CAPABLE of thinking for himself, and for that I applaude you!

First off the government does NOT control the amount of currency... The federal reserve does. The federal reserve is NOT part of our government it is a private entity. It is no more "federal" than federal express is.

No shit sherlock. I have been pointing that out for some time. As have many of us right here on this very board.

As I stated above the government does NOT issue our money... We gave away our ability to print money to the federal reserve in 1913... Please educate yourself before you run off at the mouth thinking you know what you are talking about.

You have a reading comprhension problem, AA.

You seem to think that since I understand that the amount currency has to be elastic enough to fit the activity of the society, I don't understand the structure of the system we have today.

Don't assume stuff about people here until you know who they are and what they think, AA.

And before you take me to task, make god damed sure you understand what I've written, too.

You are bringing no NEWS to this board, champ, as it regards the FED.

Certainly you have yet to prove to me that you know any more about this issue than I do.

In fact, based on you're taking me to task, its fairly evident you know far less about this issue than many of us on this board.

For one you obviously can't be reading our posts since you assume I am a supporter of the current structure of the Fed.

The FED is the foundation upon which this classist society stands, and which I rant about constantly, amigo.

My point, the point which you obviously haven't yet gotten, is that something LIKE a FED is necessary since the amount of specie in an economy has to bear some realtionship to the goods and services that society produces.

Gold bugs never seem to understand that.

I'm not sure how they can miss it, but they inevitably do.

My point is that the right to print currency belong to the PEOPLE (in the guise of the government) and NOT to some elect group of bankers, which is what we have now.

You understand the distinction betweeen what we have NOW, and what I think we should have?

I hope so since we're basically agreeing only I'm speaking about the issue in more depth than you have to date.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

There is no minimum amount of metal necessary for a metallic standard. If there were only say, 1 ton of gold in the entire world, you could still base a money system on it, as long as it's sufficiently divisible. You'd just be trading millionths or some such thing, ie "How much for a 6 pack?" "That'll be 5.78 mills of gold, sir."

The bottom line is, central planning doesn't work! If you suggested that the government lay out a five year plan for wheat production and pricing, everyone would laugh at you. But for some reason, if you suggest that government attempt to plan the supply and prices of the universal commodity--money--people nod knowingly and stroke their chins and use big words to make it sound like more than it is.

Still, having full treasury control probably would be somewhat better than our system now. At least there would be no question of who is causing the problems.

 

[dilloduck]

There is no minimum amount of metal necessary for a metallic standard. If there were only say, 1 ton of gold in the entire world, you could still base a money system on it, as long as it's sufficiently divisible. You'd just be trading millionths or some such thing, ie "How much for a 6 pack?" "That'll be 5.78 mills of gold, sir."

The bottom line is, central planning doesn't work! If you suggested that the government lay out a five year plan for wheat production and pricing, everyone would laugh at you. But for some reason, if you suggest that government attempt to plan the supply and prices of the universal commodity--money--people nod knowingly and stroke their chins and use big words to make it sound like more than it is.

Still, having full treasury control probably would be somewhat better than our system now. At least there would be no question of who is causing the problems.

Accountability is so damn transparent tho. Wouldn't that be infringing on the privacy of crooks ?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Oreo is obviously the only one in this thread so far CAPABLE of thinking for himself, and for that I applaude you!

First off the government does NOT control the ammount of currency... The federal reserve does. The federal reserve is NOT part of our government it is a private entity. It is no more "federal" than federal express is...

The Federal Reserve is quasi-public / quasi-private. The board is appointed by the President, the risk is born by the taxpayer and the profits go to the families of the first and only investors, which consisted of a $1 Billion "loan" to Uncle Sam.

Federal Reserve Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In our constitution it tells us that it is our right and duty, to stop this.
Until americans unite and burn down this monstrosity that our government has become, and forge ourselves a new gaurdian for our future, than we deserve this.

I suppose that what you suggest is pretty inevitable, based on our history, but destroying our infrastructure in protest is like burning the ship to get rid of the rats - effective, but stupid.

-Joe

 

[AshamedAmerican]

I suppose that what you suggest is pretty inevitable, based on your history, but destroying your infrastructure in protest is like burning the ship to get rid of the rats - effective, but stupid.

-Joe

I don't think anyone is looking to win a nobel prize...
We just want our F'ing country back from these inbred pieces of human trash...
Effective is all we need...
Burn baby burn!

 

[editec]

Not so, the classical gold standard in europe between the napoleonic wars and WWI saw tremendous gains in living standards.



You heard wrong. The California gold rush provided a minor blip in gold's availability, and the conquest of the Aztecs provided a bigger boost. Even with those two considered, the supply has been pretty steady.



Gold was never the most common circulating medium. Silver was. That's why the constitution specifies a dollar as being .7747 oz. of silver--that was the weight of the spanish real, which was the de facto currency of the colonies.



The only real annoyance with a metallic currency is divisibility. Today, one ounce of gold is nearly $1,000. (rounding up here ok) The smallest gold coin you can buy is like, 1/20 oz. so that is $50. And that sucker is tiny. Obviously, you can't easily buy a loaf of bread with that. Even with dimes, 1/10 of .7747 oz silver, you're still looking at something which today is worth like $1.50.

Thankfully though we can get minutely divisible currency today with digital currency, and with plastic currency. Print a plastic note embedded with a tiny flake of gold and all sorts of holographic security features. There's your dollar. 1/1000 oz. gold, and you'll never lose it in your pocket lint.

Okay...how do we get enough gold into the hands of the consumer to kick start your monetarized system Baron?

Do we turn in our dollars for Gold @$1000 per OZ?

Do the math and get back to me.

 

[editec]

They may as well be. They set the interest rate for all the rest of our banks.
They print money. They advise as to what policies we should adhere to.

WHO OWNS the FED, Dill?

Until you can get this you will forever be confused.

Here's a hint...not the people of the USA.

 

[HumptyDumpty]

Banks Hoarding Cash to Pay Derivatives Liabilities​

Tomorrow, the auction for Lehman's credit default swaps will be held, and the final result will probably be that that holders of credit default swaps will have to pay around $360 billion dollars (see below). That's for Lehman alone. Derivatives exposure due to other failed businesses is even higher.

This is why Wall Street firms and banks have been hoarding cash. As the Financial Times wrote on October 7th:

Banks are hoarding cash in expectation of pay-outs on up to $400bn (£230bn) of defaulted credit derivatives linked to Lehman Brothers and other institutions, according to analysts and -dealers.

***

Michael Hampden-Turner, a credit strategist at Citi, estimates that there could be $400bn of credit derivatives referenced to Lehman.

These contracts will be settled on Friday [October 10th], and with the recovery value on Lehman bonds currently estimated at about 10 cents on the dollar, the pay-out by banks and other sellers of credit protection on Lehman could reach a gross $360bn.
As Fox News puts it:

Massive positions are just starting to be unwound in the credit default swaps market as tens of billions of dollars worth of these contracts are now getting settled in the aftermath of several high-profile flops.

Banks are hoarding cash in expectation of expected payouts on anywhere from $200bn to $1 tn–no one knows the amount, adding to volatility–for defaulted credit derivatives linked to the collapse of Lehman Brothers, the government’s seizure of mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government’s rescue of American International Group, and the failure of Washington Mutual.

And as leading economist Nouriel Roubini wrote today in an article entitled "What Is Really Bothering Markets: Lehman's CDS Settlement on October 10 With A $360bn Expected Payout" (after quoting the above-described Financial Times articles):

Lehman was one of the top ten counterparties in the unregulated $62 trillion OTC credit default swap (CDS) market. As Lehman defaults, tens of billions worth of hedges become worthless and can only by renewed with a new counterparty at much higher premiums (i.e. CDS spreads).

Moreover, Lehman bondholders will only receive about 10 cents on the dollar in exchange for defaulted Lehman bonds and protection buyers will have a claim on 90 cents on the dollar in the hope that protection sellers will be able to perform.

Systemic event: S&P acknowledges that Lehman's default was key to AIG's demise with spillover to Europe, as well as to money market funds breaking the buck with spillover to the commercial paper market. Hedge funds's brokerage accounts have been frozen and they might also be exposed to derivatives trades.
GEORGE WASHINGTON'S BLOG

IT’S THE DERIVATIVES, STUPID! - Headline from Web of Debt

This rumor was circulating back in April of 2008​

On the 13th day of March 2008, a rare "closed door" session was held by the United States House of Representatives. It was only the fourth time in the history of the United States that the House of Representatives closed the doors and met in absolute secrecy. Thus, those who were elected to represent the people of the United States would not allow the people to know what they were meeting about. Furthermore, House Rule XVII, clause 9, forbids the Representatives from revealing what was discussed. The penalty for leaking such information includes loss of seniority, fine, reprimand, censure, or expulsion! What went on behind those closed doors where every member was sworn to absolute secrecy, to always conceal and never reveal? We know that the only reason for secrecy is to hide evil. The news media said almost nothing about the secret conclave, but it was mentioned only that one of the items being discussed was the new surveillance techniques that are going to used by the U.S. Government to watch every American. (19)

After diligently searching for more information, I finally found what I was looking for in an Australian newspaper. The story appeared in Australia.TO from Brisbane, Australia. The article stated that ABC News via WCPO confirmed that Congress members were forbidden to talk about what went on in their secret meeting. Several of the Representatives, however, were so furious and concerned about the future of the country that they began leaking info. Here are some of the things that were reportedly leaked out regarding the secret meeting: Discussion regarding the imminent collapse of the U.S. economy to occur by September 2008 - The imminent collapse of the U.S. Government finances by February 2009 - The possibility of Civil War inside the United States as a result of the collapse - The advance round-ups of "insurgent U.S. citizens" likely to move against the government - The detention of those rounded up at REX 84 camps constructed throughout the United States - The possibility of public retaliation against members of Congress for the collapses - The location of safe facilities for members of Congress and their families to reside during massive civil unrest - the necessary and unavoidable merger of the United States with Canada and Mexico - The issuance of a new currency called the AMERO for all three nations as an economic solution. (20) Obviously, there is no documentary proof for the above as the meetings were secret. The information, however, does fit the profile of what is going on around us. Our Almighty Saviour is ultimately in charge. Time will tell if these things are so, and time is running out!

Source: Last Trumpet

 

[editec]

*Simple solution to this problem of banks hoarding Federal Reserve notes.

Give hoarding banks a choice...loan out their Federal Reserve notes NOW, or we'll start print NEW US TREASURY notes and make THEM the ONLY legal tender. (neither specie is backed with anything but faith in the US economy anyway!)

When (for example) corporations need NEW currency they borrow it directly from the TREASURY and NOT from the FED's chosen banks.

Goodbye FED, goodbye MASTER CLASS and goodbye the MASTER CLASS' death grip on OUR currency.

Let whatever banks currently holds my mortgage sell it to the government for NEW TREAURY NOTES or they lose the value of that agreement I made with them entirely.

I'd rather pay my government for my house than I would these fucking private bankers, anyway.

I don't really mind paying three or four times as much as I paid for it to my government, given that I was paying people who lent me money they didn't have anyway.

*(Every man has a simple solution to a very complex problem that won't work and this is mine. There might be a few hundred trillion rough edges to this simple system, I'll admit that).

 

[Zoomie1980]

Oreo is obviously the only one in this thread so far CAPABLE of thinking for himself, and for that I applaude you!

First off the government does NOT control the ammount of currency... The federal reserve does. The federal reserve is NOT part of our government it is a private entity. It is no more "federal" than federal express is.

As I stated above the government does NOT issue our money... We gave away our ability to print money to the federal reserve in 1913... Please educate yourself before you run off at the mouth thinking you know what you are talking about.

This country has now become something exponentially worse than what our ancestors fled from in europe.
This is the symptom of a much larger, sinister problem that can no longer be avoided.

In our constitution it tells us that it is our right and duty, to stop this.
Until americans unite and burn down this monstrosity that our government has become, and forge ourselves a new gaurdian for our future, than we deserve this.

We are just as much at fault (for allowing this to happen) as the evil twisted sadists who are profiting from our financial demise.
Until we unite and take it back, not one single american has the right to complain.

We should be ashamed of ourselves, I promise you that our founding fathers are, and future generations will be as well.
This is truly a sad time to be living in, and we are only making it worse by allowing it to happen.

I agree with oreo...
We as americans are being left with one, and only one choice...
Take it back, burn it down, and rebuild it.

People should not fear their government. The government should fear the people.

Well one broad point of agreement, WE, the AMERICAN PEOPLE are RESPONSIBLE for this whole thing.

We elected the politicians who either over regulated parts of the economy (forced lending to minorities and low income people who never otherwise would have gotten a mortgage), underregulated other parts (allowing all sorts of whacked out securities schemes and uncontrolled speculation to flood our markets.

We, as normal citizens became just as greedy as the Wall St investment bankers by constantly living beyond our means and using cheap credit to drive up home values far beyond reason.

We, the builders overbuilt by over 30% in many markets, guaranteeing an even harder crash.

And as already stated, we continue to elect the most useless collection of human beings on the planet to represent us and spend us into oblivion.

 

[AVG-JOE]

*Simple solution to this problem of banks hoarding Federal Reserve notes.

Give hoarding banks a choice...loan out their Federal Reserve notes NOW, or we'll start print NEW US TREASURY notes and make THEM the ONLY legal tender. (neither specie is backed with anything but faith in the US economy anyway!)

When (for example) corporations need NEW currency they borrow it directly from the TREASURY and NOT from the FED's chosen banks.

Goodbye FED, goodbye MASTER CLASS and goodbye the MASTER CLASS' death grip on OUR currency.

Let whatever banks currently holds my mortgage sell it to the government for NEW TREAURY NOTES or they lose the value of that agreement I made with them entirely.

I'd rather pay my government for my house than I would these fucking private bankers, anyway.

I don't really mind paying three or four times as much as I paid for it to my government, given that I was paying people who lent me money they didn't have anyway.

*(Every man has a simple solution to a very complex problem that won't work and this is mine. There might be a few hundred trillion rough edges to this simple system, I'll admit that).

Sounds like you propose a 'National Credit Union' - non profit bank.

Does that extend to the treasury the ability to accept deposits and make loans to consumers?

I like it. All it takes to start a bank is a shit-pile of money... Seems like We, The People and the Obama campaign are the only organizations left that have that kind of cash... Where do I open my account?

-Joe

 

[jreeves]

I am small business & deal with many others that are in their own business. I can't tell you how many small business people, that "normally don't pay attention to politics" are now finally taking notice of what our government has just done. THEY ARE OUTRAGED over this 700 BILLION DOLLAR BAIL-OUT.

Here we small business people out here in middle America struggleing to pay our employess, keep our business in a little black ink- & pay our taxes.

We see our government sponsoring irresponsible homebuyers--due to government policy--over Freddie Mac & Fannie Mae--government backed securites. A democrat party that put pressure on banks thru Fannie & Freddie to loan out to minorities & lower incomes in the belief that "everyone deserves homeownership, regardless of their ability to pay." It's the "buy the minority & lower income vote", sponsored by the U.S. taxpayer.

At any rate, I can't tell you how many I have talked too, that are saying they do not want to pay any federal income taxes in the future. They are willing to pay state taxes, but not anything to the federal government.

To add insult to injury we see a bail-out bill loaded with pork. Americans are sick & tired, & I really don't think many are going to stand for this anymore.

Our government just turned their backs on the responsible people that actually pay federal income tax in this country. And neither candidate--Barack Obama or John McCain gives a hoot about it. Both candidates are rewarding irresponsible people who bought homes they could not afford, while sticking it to the rest of us.

Everyone should realise from now on, that this disaster is exactly what happens when big government gets involved in the private sector.

If our government would have stayed out of the banking or mortgage loan business we would have never been in this mess. Now, not only our markets are crashing, they are crashing all over the world. We may be in for a very long depression because of federal government--self interested--intervention in the private sector.

What private sector? The public sector has swallowed the private sector.....

 

[chloe]

*Simple solution to this problem of banks hoarding Federal Reserve notes.

Give hoarding banks a choice...loan out their Federal Reserve notes NOW, or we'll start print NEW US TREASURY notes and make THEM the ONLY legal tender. (neither specie is backed with anything but faith in the US economy anyway!)

When (for example) corporations need NEW currency they borrow it directly from the TREASURY and NOT from the FED's chosen banks.

Goodbye FED, goodbye MASTER CLASS and goodbye the MASTER CLASS' death grip on OUR currency.

Let whatever banks currently holds my mortgage sell it to the government for NEW TREAURY NOTES or they lose the value of that agreement I made with them entirely.

I'd rather pay my government for my house than I would these fucking private bankers, anyway.

I don't really mind paying three or four times as much as I paid for it to my government, given that I was paying people who lent me money they didn't have anyway.

*(Every man has a simple solution to a very complex problem that won't work and this is mine. There might be a few hundred trillion rough edges to this simple system, I'll admit that).

I agree, I would rather pay into my government then bankers too.

 

[editec]

There is no minimum amount of metal necessary for a metallic standard. If there were only say, 1 ton of gold in the entire world, you could still base a money system on it, as long as it's sufficiently divisible. You'd just be trading millionths or some such thing, ie "How much for a 6 pack?" "That'll be 5.78 mills of gold, sir."

GReat...just so long as the amount of good and services remain static.

What happens when populations are rising, and the WDP increases?

Deflation, right?

The bottom line is, central planning doesn't work!

I'm not calling for central planning. Where did you get that idea?

Still, having full treasury control probably would be somewhat better than our system now. At least there would be no question of who is causing the problems.

The basic benefit is that it eliminates an industry (and the class which that indistry spawned) which adds NOTHING to the economy.

The real question is HOW DO THE PEOPLE GET ACCESS MONEY FROM THE TREASURY?

I'm envisioning that the Treasury become the lender directly to the people and corporations instead of allowing private banks. (yeah I think you understood that, too)

At least there would be no question of who is causing the problems.

That's certainly one benefit.

But there's another benefit, too. The government can set interest rates act based on REAL increases in productivity as evidenced by increased GDP.

So it's more like CENTRAL REACTING, than central planning I'm shooting for with this system I'm proposing, you see my point?

If they set interest rates based on changes in the GDP, then more money needs to go into the system to accomodate those new goods and services.

The goal here should be to keep currency and changes in production in relative agreement with each other.

That might, I think, eliminate the constant infaltionary pressure that we seem to get with this system we have now.

And if no other benefit is gained from this system, it still ends this tyrannical banking class which really gave nothing to our system except the first tier of people who got to spend the NEW DOLLARS they were issuing.

The new Dollars really go to the people who are borrowing them, and the interest they pay back goes to the government which decides if that return needs to be retired (withdrawn from circulation) or put back into the economy as new loans.