American Flag Under Assault

[SmarterThanHick]

Stealing TIME?! I'm sorry, can you point me to the last person in the US prosecuted for punching in late to work repeatedly?

You seem to think freedom of speech extends into the private domain. It doesn't.

If your job requires you to stand in silence and you fail to do so, you can be fired. If your job requires you to have a specific dress code and you decide street clothes are acceptable, you can be fired. This really isn't a difficult concept.

Stealing TIME?! I'm sorry, can you point me to the last person in the US prosecuted for punching in late to work repeatedly?

You don't get Prosecuted, you get Fired. Having Someone Else Punch You In or Out is a Crime. It is Stealing Time. You need to talk to some of your Union Friends about that.

If your job requires you to stand in silence and you fail to do so, you can be fired. If your job requires you to have a specific dress code and you decide street clothes are acceptable, you can be fired. This really isn't a difficult concept.

No argument there. I'm just pointing out that ignoring something, or allowing it for 2 years, and then slamming the Firing Hammer Down does look bad on you, and having established a Precedent, may work against you in Court.

it looks bad in this case where people incorrectly get upset about a flag. it doesn't mean a thing in court.

when have you ever heard of someone getting out of a speeding ticket with the plea "but your honor, I've sped all my life without a problem before. therefore this shouldn't count just because someone else wanted to enforce the established rules"

 

[Intense]

Stealing TIME?! I'm sorry, can you point me to the last person in the US prosecuted for punching in late to work repeatedly?

You seem to think freedom of speech extends into the private domain. It doesn't.

If your job requires you to stand in silence and you fail to do so, you can be fired. If your job requires you to have a specific dress code and you decide street clothes are acceptable, you can be fired. This really isn't a difficult concept.

You don't get Prosecuted, you get Fired. Having Someone Else Punch You In or Out is a Crime. It is Stealing Time. You need to talk to some of your Union Friends about that.

If your job requires you to stand in silence and you fail to do so, you can be fired. If your job requires you to have a specific dress code and you decide street clothes are acceptable, you can be fired. This really isn't a difficult concept.

No argument there. I'm just pointing out that ignoring something, or allowing it for 2 years, and then slamming the Firing Hammer Down does look bad on you, and having established a Precedent, may work against you in Court.

it looks bad in this case where people incorrectly get upset about a flag. it doesn't mean a thing in court.

when have you ever heard of someone getting out of a speeding ticket with the plea "but your honor, I've sped all my life without a problem before. therefore this shouldn't count just because someone else wanted to enforce the established rules"

Again, apples and oranges. Speeding is against the Law.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

and this is against policy. what's your point? it parallels exactly:
First, a rule is set in place
Second, a person agrees to abide by said rule
Third, the person then blatantly disregards that rule
Fourth, the person deals with the consequences

You can make the rule speeding or disregarding company policy. The policy can be not showing up for work repeatedly, without getting paid for it, leaving other responsibilities unfulfilled, or violating the company's dress code. Either way it is a person breaking an established rule they knew they could be held to, and in this case it was done even after warning. Your attempt to mark the consequences of breaking state or corporate policy as distinct entities holds no water.

 

[Intense]

and this is against policy. what's your point? it parallels exactly:
First, a rule is set in place
Second, a person agrees to abide by said rule
Third, the person then blatantly disregards that rule
Fourth, the person deals with the consequences

You can make the rule speeding or disregarding company policy. The policy can be not showing up for work repeatedly, without getting paid for it, leaving other responsibilities unfulfilled, or violating the company's dress code. Either way it is a person breaking an established rule they knew they could be held to, and in this case it was done even after warning. Your attempt to mark the consequences of breaking state or corporate policy as distinct entities holds no water.

Yes and no. The Person wore the pin at work 2 years without complaint or incident. Take a few minutes and check out this link, though some of it may border on the absurd, it validates the point that this is not a slam dunk. I understand Dress Codes personally, and generally respect them. This is more an example of someone taking a hard line, and is now stuck as a result. Check out the Link.

LAWS AND CASES AFFECTING APPEARANCE

by Bob Gregg
Boardman Reading Room

 

[idb]

If it was a small company it would be easier to use discretion.
A larger company needs to be careful about setting precedents that can make it appear to be unfairly treating one employee over another.
What if another employee wanted to be really patriotic and wear a dozen flag pins?
What about flag nose piercings?
Or a flag tattoo on the forehead?

As I understand it the guy was given a choice, and he made his choice - that's his right and good on him.
He should be happy and proud he lives in a country where he has the right to free choice.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

Again I ask how that is in any way relevant. It doesn't matter how long a rule was blatantly violated previously. This is true for corporate policy and state laws. Al Capone did not defend himself with "but I didn't need to file taxes before!"

I'm happy to read any supporting evidence you may have, but you're going to need to be a bit more specific than that entire page. Copy and paste the pertinent information you wish to share.

 

[Intense]

Again I ask how that is in any way relevant. It doesn't matter how long a rule was blatantly violated previously. This is true for corporate policy and state laws. Al Capone did not defend himself with "but I didn't need to file taxes before!"

I'm happy to read any supporting evidence you may have, but you're going to need to be a bit more specific than that entire page. Copy and paste the pertinent information you wish to share.

Tax Evasion is a Crime. Wearing a Flag Pin is not. You did not check out the Link did you?

 

[jillian]

A Florida hotel fired its front desk supervisor after the man wore an American flag lapel pin, a violation of the hotel’s personal appearance policies that prohibit employees from wearing badges and pins. Sean May told Jacksonville’s WJXT that his manager at St. Augustine’s Casa Monica Hotel told him Thursday to remove the pin or leave. He refused to take it off and was sent home. The following day, the hotel informed him he was fired. “I wear it with pride because I like where I live and I love this country,” May told the station. When his manager gave him the ultimatum, “I said I‘m not going to remove the pin so I guess I’m going home.

read more Welborn Freedom Watch: American Flag Under Assault - #3333 - Florida Hotel Fires Worker for Wearing American Flag Pin - The Blaze (2) Olive Garden Restaurant Apologizes After Staff Refuses to Let Patron Display American Flag in Restaurant - Fox News

i'm not certain how the flag is under assault. businesses have the right to regulate dress codes. as long as those codes are fairly and equally applied, i'm not sure i see the issue... other than some belligerant employee whom i'd have fired for simply intentionally violating policy.

there are lots of people who could use that job and won't use it for political purpose.

 

[Intense]

A Florida hotel fired its front desk supervisor after the man wore an American flag lapel pin, a violation of the hotel’s personal appearance policies that prohibit employees from wearing badges and pins. Sean May told Jacksonville’s WJXT that his manager at St. Augustine’s Casa Monica Hotel told him Thursday to remove the pin or leave. He refused to take it off and was sent home. The following day, the hotel informed him he was fired. “I wear it with pride because I like where I live and I love this country,” May told the station. When his manager gave him the ultimatum, “I said I‘m not going to remove the pin so I guess I’m going home.

read more Welborn Freedom Watch: American Flag Under Assault - #3333 - Florida Hotel Fires Worker for Wearing American Flag Pin - The Blaze (2) Olive Garden Restaurant Apologizes After Staff Refuses to Let Patron Display American Flag in Restaurant - Fox News

i'm not certain how the flag is under assault. businesses have the right to regulate dress codes. as long as those codes are fairly and equally applied, i'm not sure i see the issue... other than some belligerant employee whom i'd have fired for simply intentionally violating policy.

there are lots of people who could use that job and won't use it for political purpose.

I don't think it went down that way at all Jillian. He wore the pin everyday for 2 years without incident. Maybe the Supervisor was new? Maybe they were competing over a Girlfriend? There are Federal and State Laws to consider. Is the Specifics of the Dress Code even Legal? Court Decisions are all over the spectrum on the Issue. I did post a link earlier.

 

[idb]

A Florida hotel fired its front desk supervisor after the man wore an American flag lapel pin, a violation of the hotel’s personal appearance policies that prohibit employees from wearing badges and pins. Sean May told Jacksonville’s WJXT that his manager at St. Augustine’s Casa Monica Hotel told him Thursday to remove the pin or leave. He refused to take it off and was sent home. The following day, the hotel informed him he was fired. “I wear it with pride because I like where I live and I love this country,” May told the station. When his manager gave him the ultimatum, “I said I‘m not going to remove the pin so I guess I’m going home.

read more Welborn Freedom Watch: American Flag Under Assault - #3333 - Florida Hotel Fires Worker for Wearing American Flag Pin - The Blaze (2) Olive Garden Restaurant Apologizes After Staff Refuses to Let Patron Display American Flag in Restaurant - Fox News

i'm not certain how the flag is under assault. businesses have the right to regulate dress codes. as long as those codes are fairly and equally applied, i'm not sure i see the issue... other than some belligerant employee whom i'd have fired for simply intentionally violating policy.

there are lots of people who could use that job and won't use it for political purpose.

I don't think it went down that way at all Jillian. He wore the pin everyday for 2 years without incident. Maybe the Supervisor was new? Maybe they were competing over a Girlfriend? There are Federal and State Laws to consider. Is the Specifics of the Dress Code even Legal? Court Decisions are all over the spectrum on the Issue. I did post a link earlier.

I didn't see anything about time limitations in your link Intense.
I did see the right of an employer to uphold a dress code

The court ruled that an employer’s desire to have a particular image could constitute a “reasonable business purpose” which would allow it to set a particular dress code

 

[manifold]

A guy could wear a freaking dress to work and be covered by the 1st Amendment these days but the Flag has become a controversial issue. The world is upside down under liberalism.

^ More unadulterated horseshit from whitehall.

I'm beginning to notice a pattern.

But whatcha gonna do?

 

[Synthaholic]

A Florida hotel fired its front desk supervisor after the man wore an American flag lapel pin, a violation of the hotel’s personal appearance policies that prohibit employees from wearing badges and pins. Sean May told Jacksonville’s WJXT that his manager at St. Augustine’s Casa Monica Hotel told him Thursday to remove the pin or leave. He refused to take it off and was sent home. The following day, the hotel informed him he was fired. “I wear it with pride because I like where I live and I love this country,” May told the station. When his manager gave him the ultimatum, “I said I‘m not going to remove the pin so I guess I’m going home.

read more Welborn Freedom Watch: American Flag Under Assault - #3333 - Florida Hotel Fires Worker for Wearing American Flag Pin - The Blaze (2) Olive Garden Restaurant Apologizes After Staff Refuses to Let Patron Display American Flag in Restaurant - Fox News

The hotel defended the decision to fire May in an email to the station:

“The Casa Monica Hotel located in St. Augustine, Florida, is an American-based, homegrown historic hotel,” the email reads. “The property reflects its pride in America and great patriotism by flying the Stars and Stripes high over the hotel. The American flag greets every guest and employee with its symbolism of our belief in this great country.”

“However, our employee handbook clearly states, ‘No other buttons, badges, pins or insignias of any kind are permitted to be worn.‘ No matter an individual’s national preference, political views or religious affiliation, it is a standard regulation which ensures equality for all Grand Performers [employees].”



​

It's very clear: you do not have a right to tell your boss what you will or will not wear. In fact, you do not have a right to that job. If you do not like your employer's terms you're free to find another job.

Ain't America great?

 

[jillian]

A Florida hotel fired its front desk supervisor after the man wore an American flag lapel pin, a violation of the hotel’s personal appearance policies that prohibit employees from wearing badges and pins. Sean May told Jacksonville’s WJXT that his manager at St. Augustine’s Casa Monica Hotel told him Thursday to remove the pin or leave. He refused to take it off and was sent home. The following day, the hotel informed him he was fired. “I wear it with pride because I like where I live and I love this country,” May told the station. When his manager gave him the ultimatum, “I said I‘m not going to remove the pin so I guess I’m going home.

read more Welborn Freedom Watch: American Flag Under Assault - #3333 - Florida Hotel Fires Worker for Wearing American Flag Pin - The Blaze (2) Olive Garden Restaurant Apologizes After Staff Refuses to Let Patron Display American Flag in Restaurant - Fox News

i'm not certain how the flag is under assault. businesses have the right to regulate dress codes. as long as those codes are fairly and equally applied, i'm not sure i see the issue... other than some belligerant employee whom i'd have fired for simply intentionally violating policy.

there are lots of people who could use that job and won't use it for political purpose.

I don't think it went down that way at all Jillian. He wore the pin everyday for 2 years without incident. Maybe the Supervisor was new? Maybe they were competing over a Girlfriend? There are Federal and State Laws to consider. Is the Specifics of the Dress Code even Legal? Court Decisions are all over the spectrum on the Issue. I did post a link earlier.

i didn't see anything about that. but if he was told to take if off, whether by a new supervisor or new company policy, he had to take it off, imo. that's life. imo.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Tax Evasion is a Crime. Wearing a Flag Pin is not. You did not check out the Link did you?

But this isn’t an issue of criminal law, nor is it civil per your link. In the ‘jeans’ case a hotel’s effort to exhibit a professional image in the lobby was appropriate. As already correctly noted, the size of the pin and the length of time the violation went uncorrected are irrelevant. The hotel is authorized to maintain a particular image, the pin didn’t fit that image. There is also no way the pin could be construed as religious, ethnic, or an accommodation for a disability:

Dress Code
In general, an employer may establish a dress code which applies to all employees or employees within certain job categories. However, there are a few possible exceptions.

While an employer may require all workers to follow a uniform dress code even if the dress code conflicts with some workers' ethnic beliefs or practices, a dress code must not treat some employees less favorably because of their national origin. For example, a dress code that prohibits certain kinds of ethnic dress, such as traditional African or East Indian attire, but otherwise permits casual dress would treat some employees less favorably because of their national origin.

Moreover, if the dress code conflicts with an employee's religious practices and the employee requests an accommodation, the employer must modify the dress code or permit an exception to the dress code unless doing so would result in undue hardship.

Similarly, if an employee requests an accommodation to the dress code because of his disability, the employer must modify the dress code or permit an exception to the dress code, unless doing so would result in undue hardship.

Prohibited Practices

 

[Intense]

Tax Evasion is a Crime. Wearing a Flag Pin is not. You did not check out the Link did you?

But this isn’t an issue of criminal law, nor is it civil per your link. In the ‘jeans’ case a hotel’s effort to exhibit a professional image in the lobby was appropriate. As already correctly noted, the size of the pin and the length of time the violation went uncorrected are irrelevant. The hotel is authorized to maintain a particular image, the pin didn’t fit that image. There is also no way the pin could be construed as religious, ethnic, or an accommodation for a disability:

Dress Code
In general, an employer may establish a dress code which applies to all employees or employees within certain job categories. However, there are a few possible exceptions.

While an employer may require all workers to follow a uniform dress code even if the dress code conflicts with some workers' ethnic beliefs or practices, a dress code must not treat some employees less favorably because of their national origin. For example, a dress code that prohibits certain kinds of ethnic dress, such as traditional African or East Indian attire, but otherwise permits casual dress would treat some employees less favorably because of their national origin.

Moreover, if the dress code conflicts with an employee's religious practices and the employee requests an accommodation, the employer must modify the dress code or permit an exception to the dress code unless doing so would result in undue hardship.

Similarly, if an employee requests an accommodation to the dress code because of his disability, the employer must modify the dress code or permit an exception to the dress code, unless doing so would result in undue hardship.

Prohibited Practices

Too bad the Pin did not also include the Quote "One Nation Under God".

I think the Establishment needs to be checked for what it has allowed other Employee's to wear in violation of it's Dress Code. If the Desk Supervisor was Targeted unfairly, while slack enforcement continues, that is more grounds for a Civil Suit. I bet this Establishment is already sorry it opened this "Pandora's Box".

 

[SmarterThanHick]

Tax Evasion is a Crime. Wearing a Flag Pin is not. You did not check out the Link did you?

Again, you seem to be missing the parallel here. The things you bring up continue to be irrelevant. It doesn't matter whether it is local corporate policy or state law. It doesn't matter how long the rule/law was violated before being enforced. Putting in specific examples, such as tax evasion, refusing to punch into work, ignoring the dress code, speeding, or ANYTHING else that violates an established applicable policy all results in consequences.

I am happy to read something to help you make a point, but quote it specifically. Don't send a 10 page link and expect me to read the entire thing when most of it is unrelated.