American Facts - The Eleventh Commandment

midcan5

liberal / progressive
Jun 4, 2007
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America
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both." Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Please check later posts for revisions.]

In 'Immortality' Milan Kundera speculates on the eleventh commandment, the big one Moses didn't bring down with him. Gawd must have known her creation was incapable of so hard a command, ten were enough, 'Thou shalt not lie' impossible.

But suppose for a moment the eleventh commandment....nah, impossible for what would the politicians ever say, honest politics would pose so hard a problem that talking heads would spin out of control, honest reporting would be the death of contemporary dialogue. And so it goes, a managed narrative has become the norm, the forms it takes are outlined below. Lies and facts interweave.

Bull S...: Imagine that the most prevalent detail of American politics today is BS. Harry Frankfurt defines it thus, "It is .... this lack of connection to a concern with truth - this indifference to how things really are - that I regard as of the essence of bullshit." Listen carefully to the political ads and then fact check. Ironically, the considered swing states are doing well financially as money pours in with lies galore, created with no connection to things on the ground.

Respect: When did America lose a trait essential for a democracy? Today even the office of the President has lost the respect of the right wing politicians and their followers in America. Imagine questioning a president's credentials rather than considering the state of the American economy or the American family? The loss in 2008 brought forth an even larger adversarial contingent than Clinton's win. Money manages the American mind today, and whenever it feels threatened it pays heavily to create a narrative of a lost America.

Do Nothing: It used to be America was the 'can do' nation, today it is the can't because that would cost money. FDR built the nation, Eisenhower built the nation, JFK built the nation, our history is full of national endeavors to create, build, and do better. What happened that the only spending now is done for the war machine? America crumbles as republicans and many democrats worry about a deficit that only became a deficit after 2008.

Debt: The magic of debt talk is the party which created most of the debt accuses the other party of creating what its own policies did. Lowered taxes are helping to destroy America's education, research, industrial and infrastructure bases, but who cares. I got mine. Now even babies look out from the TV and goo-goo ga-ga over a solvable problem. But please note those same babies are not given the promise given seniors of no changes to so called 'entitlement' programs. Odd huh.

Politicization / Polarization: The economy has improved greatly since 2008 but polarization is so strong that saying that is not allowed either by governors or media. Improvement does not fit the narrative of a lost America, the narrative is essential as it forms a bond among ideologues who are often at odds with each other over economic or social issues.

Media / PACs: Our SCOTUS let loose the loonies. A soap box for every crazy, an electorate bombarded with nonsense, and a platform for hatred and disagreement. Seriously do people really believe the nonsense on Fox or anything from Limbaugh, Coulter, Beck, or Savage? Seriously. They used to be called sophists, today money pays them well for sophistry works.

Media Equivalence: Rarely will a talking head take note of a political untruth on MSM, only the comics present the reality of the lies, distortions presented as commentary, the rest of the MSM sit and reason that in order to appear reasonable, they must acknowledge unreason as reason. Equivalency has replaced truth as a journalism trait.

Neo-Straw-Manning: Today there is no requirement you analyze an opponent's political values, accomplishments, or policies, all that is necessary is that you go into your own mind, pick among your fears and biases and then attribute them to the other. If you doubt that, consider Dinesh D'Souza's Obama, a person who doesn't exist but has a book and movie. Fiction as truth.

TV and Social Media: It is difficult to know what the youth of America read today as a kind of inane narcissism seems to inflict so many. Texting has replaced speech, and personal web pages on everyday activities occupy all time. Every opinion has equal worth no matter how silly, ask a teacher if you doubt that fact. Mindless cacophony, with the addition of mindless TV and sports as the goals of life. Life lived through a smart phone.

Racism Returns: Hidden in birtherism, welfare comments, food stamp notice, and voter registration changes since 2008 is something Americans pretend does not exist. It is the elephant in the room that must be denied at any cost. Check only the shenanigans at the RNC this year or the signs at tea party events. They mean well, they're just misunderstood. Sure they do.

A Changing Past: America is always on the brink of losing something or another. One wonders what history is being taught when the past, thankfully in so many area, is past. H. L. Mencken wrote, "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." Chicken Little was here.

Single Issue Voter: What's with these people. Do they select spouses based on their cute nose? Given divorce rates, maybe. Recently there are ads for energy voters? It is often asked why voters vote against their own interests? The answer is a narrative of anti something. The 'something' coincides with the single issue voter and thus ends thought.

Joe McCarthy Returns: Can anyone really consider seriously a congressman who thinks there are communists in our representative body? Do any of them know any history? Geography? When stupid people are elected to congress the results are obvious.

Loss Of Religious Values: My mom, who had nothing, would help anyone, she grew up in the great depression and knew hardship. Americans today have lost that value. Consider in the mid fifties, "generosity was voted the most conspicuous American characteristic, followed by friendliness, understanding, piety, love of freedom, and progressivism. The American faults listed were petty: shallowness, egotism, extravagance, preoccupation with money, and selfishness."* Today those values have been reversed. The power of money.

Fundamentals: Republicans are metaphysicians, while democrats are a mixed lot, a few pragmatists remain but most only hold in their heads the idea that their position grants them special province. None seem to realize they too suck at the teat of government while acting like government is a bad mother. The latest slogan is trickle down government. Do mirrors exist in Washington. See our first president's quote below.

Americans Today: Show me the Money. In money we trust. For the love of money is a root of all kinds.... Americans now look at America as a place to rob, pillage, and buy cheap. And that isn't just for those who can, it is for many who can't. Paradox you say. Not hardly. Consider that a presidential candidate has money in foreign countries and tax havens. Nah, you say. In a recent review of Barlett and Steele's new book on the betrayal of the American dream,** a reviewer notes that Americans want cheap, Americans don't care that Corporations ship jobs overseas, or Walmart pays food stamp wages, they only care for cheap. Look only at the invasion of foreign cars, Chinese made, and the support call that ends up going to India. And finally I ask, how many Americans support a fair wage or buy made in America. As Pogo - another comic truth - once said and it can be repeated today, we have met the enemy and he may be us.


"The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." Quote DB :: Speeches :: George Washington :: George Washington's Farewell Address Speech


*William Manchester in "The Glory and the Dream" quoting George Gallup's Institute of public opinion.
** Barlett & Steele » Blog Archive » Our new book: The Betrayal of the American Dream

The start of the machine that rules the American mind today. The Invention of Political Consulting : The New Yorker


"There is no need to sally forth, for it remains true that those things which make us human are, curiously enough, always close at hand. Resolve, then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tiny blasts of tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us." Pogo
 
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"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both." Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Please check later posts for revisions.]

Planning ahead for the things you get wrong. I guess that adage about old dogs isn't true after all.

In 'Immortality' Milan Kundera speculates on the eleventh commandment, the big one Moses didn't bring down with him. Gawd must have known her creation was incapable of so hard a command, ten were enough, 'Thou shalt not lie' impossible.

This is where I get confused, if the (undelivered) 11th commandment is do not lie what was the 9th commandment changed to?

But suppose for a moment the eleventh commandment....nah, impossible for what would the politicians ever say, honest politics would pose so hard a problem that talking heads would spin out of control, honest reporting would be the death of contemporary dialogue. And so it goes, a managed narrative has become the norm, the forms it takes are outlined below. Lies and facts interweave.

Don't worry, I will be glad to point out the parts where you.......and correct your "facts."

Bull S...: Imagine that the most prevalent detail of American politics today is BS. Harry Frankfurt defines it thus, "It is .... this lack of connection to a concern with truth - this indifference to how things really are - that I regard as of the essence of bullshit." Listen carefully to the political ads and then fact check. Ironically, the considered swing states are doing well financially as money pores in with lies galore, created with no connection to things on the ground.

Respect: When did America lose a trait essential for a democracy? Today even the office of the President has lost the respect of the right wing politicians and their followers in America. Imagine questioning a president's credentials rather than considering the state of the American economy or the American family? The loss in 2008 brought forth an even larger adversarial contingent than Clinton's win. Money manages the American mind today, and whenever it feels threatened it pays heavily to create a narrative of a lost America.

Is this........ one of the facts you need me to correct? Politics today is actually a lot more respectful, and a lot less inflammatory, than it was. Unless, that is, you can find examples of Romney calling Obama a hermaphrodite, or a blind, toothless, and bald old man that imports mistresses.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_zTN4BXvYI"]Attack Ads, Circa 1800 - YouTube[/ame]

Do Nothing: It used to be America was the 'can do' nation, today it is the can't because that would cost money. FDR built the nation, Eisenhower built the nation, JFK built the nation, our history is full of national endeavors to create, build, and do better. What happened that the only spending now is done for the war machine? America crumbles as republicans and many democrats worry about a deficit that only became a deficit after 2008.

When I read history books the "can do" came from the people, not the government. It is true that Lincoln supported the efforts of the robber barons/railroad tycoons to build a transcontinental railroad, but I can assure you that they did not do so out of a sense of building America, they were out to line their pockets, and they created a government that is dedicated to making rich people richer.

The very same government you continually defend.

Debt: The magic of debt talk is the party which created most of the debt accuses the other party of creating what its own policies did. Lowered taxes are helping to destroy America's education, research, industrial and infrastructure bases, but who cares. I got mine. Now even babies look out from the TV and goo-goo ga-ga over a solvable problem. But please note those same babies are not given the promise given seniors of no changes to so called 'entitlement' programs. Odd huh.

Which party created the debt? The Democrats did vote for most of the bills that made the debt grow as fast as it had, but they were almost always signed by a Republican. Which party am I supposed to blame? Wouldn't it be easier for me to be honest and admit that both parties are responsible, or is this one of those times I am supposed to ignore the fact that the 9th commandment actually exists?

Politicization / Polarization: The economy has improved greatly since 2008 but polarization is so strong that saying that is not allowed either by governors or media. Improvement does not fit the narrative of a lost America, the narrative is essential as it forms a bond among ideologues who are often at odds with each other over economic or social issues.

The media can't tell us the economy has improved? All those stories I keep seeing about the mixed, but generally improved, economy are all figments of my imagination?

Media / PACs: Our SCOTUS let loose the loonies. A soap box for every crazy, an electorate bombarded with nonsense, and a platform for hatred and disagreement. Seriously do people really believe the nonsense on Fox or anything from Limbaugh, Coulter, Beck, or Savage? Seriously. They used to be called sophists, today money pays them well for sophistry works.

Sophist used to be people who would only teach if they got paid. Can we think of a group of people that currently fits that definition?

Media Equivalence: Rarely will a talking head take note of a political untruth on MSM, only the comics present the reality of the lies, distortions presented as commentary, the rest of the MSM sit and reason that in order to appear reasonable, they must acknowledge unreason as reason. Equivalency has replaced truth as a journalism trait.

People love to trot this one out, yet they almost always apply it to the wrong thing. Examples of false equivalence in media would be a reporter talking about science and presenting the kooks opinion alongside that of a scientist with the idea that both are equally valid. It can only be applied where the choice is between a lot of evidence that supports one side of the debate and the other side just making things up in order to confuse people.

It does not, however, apply to discussions about politics where neither side has the facts on their side.

Neo-Straw-Manning: Today there is no requirement you analyze an opponent's political values, accomplishments, or policies, all that is necessary is that you go into your own mind, pick among your fears and biases and then attribute them to the other. If you doubt that, consider Dinesh D'Souza's Obama, a person who doesn't exist but has a book and movie. Fiction as truth.

What on Earth makes you think this is something new?

TV and Social Media: It is difficult to know what the youth of America read today as a kind of inane narcissism seems to inflict so many. Texting has replaced speech, and personal web pages on everyday activities occupy all time. Every opinion has equal worth no matter how silly, ask a teacher if you doubt that fact. Mindless cacophony, with the addition of mindless TV and sports as the goals of life. Life lived through a smart phone.

Technology is bad.

And you call yourself a progressive.

Racism Returns: Hidden in birtherism, welfare comments, food stamp notice, and voter registration changes since 2008 is something Americans pretend does not exist. It is the elephant in the room that must be denied at any cost. Check only the shenanigans at the RNC this year or the signs at tea party events. They mean well, they're just misunderstood. Sure they do.

Didn't you just make up a term for this? Was it Neo-Straw-Manning?

The thing about dog whistles is that only dogs can hear the whistle. If you hear racism everywhere, you just might be a racist.

A Changing Past: America is always on the brink of losing something or another. One wonders what history is being taught when the past, thankfully in so many area, is past. H. L. Mencken wrote, "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." Chicken Little was here.

IS it safe to point out that you are one of the worst offenders about rewriting history in the CDZ? If you need an example, I can point to your claim earlier in this post where you rewrote history to ignore the fact that some of the people who actually signed the Declaration of Independence and helped draft the Constitution were a lot less respectful of the President of the United States than we are.

Single Issue Voter: What's with these people. Do they select spouses based on their cute nose? Given divorce rates, maybe. Recently there are ads for energy voters? It is often asked why voters vote against their own interests? The answer is a narrative of anti something. The 'something' coincides with the single issue voter and thus ends thought.

I wonder why Obama thinks women's rights is the dominant issue in America today, is he a single issue president?

Joe McCarthy Returns: Can anyone really consider seriously a congressman who thinks there are communists in our representative body? Do any of them know any history? Geography? When stupid people are elected to congress the results are obvious.

Is it any harder than being serious about a congresscritter who is worried about Guam tipping over?

Loss Of Religious Values: My mom, who had nothing, would help anyone, she grew up in the great depression and knew hardship. Americans today have lost that value. Consider in the mid fifties, "generosity was voted the most conspicuous American characteristic, followed by friendliness, understanding, piety, love of freedom, and progressivism. The American faults listed were petty: shallowness, egotism, extravagance, preoccupation with money, and selfishness."* Today those values have been reversed. The power of money.

this is one of your attempts to rewrite history by changing the way America sees itself today, isn't it? Point out to me how everyone just sat on their ass when New Orleans was flooded because they are all greedy and unwilling to share. I dare you.

Fundamentals: Republicans are metaphysicians, while democrats are a mixed lot, a few pragmatists remain but most only hold in their heads the idea that their position grants them special province. None seem to realize they too suck at the teat of government while acting like government is a bad mother. The latest slogan is trickle down government. Do mirrors exist in Washington. See our first president's quote below.

Here we go again all Republicans are closed minded bigots, and all Democrats are super smart and love science.

I am not even going to take the time to point out how silly it is for anyone to believe this given the fact that I am currently in a one sided argument about science on this forum with a whole group of people who defend the claim that DDT instantly causes cancer.

Americans Today: Show me the Money. In money we trust. For the love of money is a root of all kinds.... Americans now look at America as a place to rob, pillage, and buy cheap. And that isn't just for those who can, it is for many who can't. Paradox you say. Not hardly. Consider that a presidential candidate has money in foreign countries and tax havens. Nah, you say. In a recent review of Barlett and Steele's new book on the betrayal of the American dream,** a reviewer notes that Americans want cheap, Americans don't care that Corporations ship jobs overseas, or Walmart pays food stamp wages, they only care for cheap. Look only at the invasion of foreign cars, Chinese made, and the support call that ends up going to India. And finally I ask, how many Americans support a fair wage or buy made in America. As Pogo - another comic truth - once said and it can be repeated today, we have met the enemy and he may be us.

Didn't I just point out that you are wrong about this?

"The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." Quote DB :: Speeches :: George Washington :: George Washington's Farewell Address Speech


*William Manchester in "The Glory and the Dream" quoting George Gallup's Institute of public opinion.
** Barlett & Steele » Blog Archive » Our new book: The Betrayal of the American Dream

The start of the machine that rules the American mind today. The Invention of Political Consulting : The New Yorker


"There is no need to sally forth, for it remains true that those things which make us human are, curiously enough, always close at hand. Resolve, then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tiny blasts of tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us." Pogo

The obligatory quotes that fail to prove anything.
 
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America has always been a divided country, from the getgo. Differences in all sorts of ways and opinions, and not all that respectful or considerate of opposing viewpoints. We even went through a civil war once, killing each other in large numbers. Hopefully that isn't going to happen again, but tempers were hot then and getting hot now. I don't see a coming together unless and until we suffer through another great depression that changes the thought process over the functions of the various levels of gov't and our own personal and civic responsibilities. We're good at coming together in response to crises such as war and 9/11. But not so good at heading them off, particularly on domestic issues like debt and deficits, taxation and spending, the social safety net and national security.

The truth is (IMHO) that we've got major problems that like a toothache will not go away, but instead will get worse over time. Worst of all, future generations will have to bear the burden we are creating, and we have not even really begun to develop solutions and the processes required to get out of the hole we've dug for ourselves. Hell, we haven't even put down the shovels yet.

So when I read stuff like the OP, I realize we're still digging. Still pointing fingers at the other side, with no effort or intention of moving away from our entrenched position. So it is in Washington and in the states around the country, nobody seems to want to put down the shovel. Instead, we call the opposition liars, deceptive evil people who care nothing for the good of the country. Charges and counter charges fly back and forth, it's like fiddling while Rome is burning. Looks to me like the USA is figuratively burning, and all we're doing is arguing about whose at fault.
 
If anyone doubts the premise of the OP look only at the reaction yesterday to positive employment numbers. Since it didn't fit the managed narrative it was made up. Jack Welsh, a leading corporate outsourcer, among other things, claims some Chicago folks fudged the number, when Nixon didn't agree it was the Jews in the BLS who controlled the numbers. The difference today is even good news is met with derision from the right.

Why is it required that quotes be placed around points that contradict or don't align perfectly with a reader's worldview. Stanley Fish gives an interesting explanation here: How the Right Hijacked the Magic Words Read it.

Quantum Windbag,

I thought of the ninth as you did but false witness and neighbors are limited things, read Kundera - 'do not lie' requires we answer, Gawd never said we had to answer. 'Bear witness' is out loud, lies are, as the nuns said, often omissions.

I have to say your replies were very weak. I am not claiming there are not hard working good Americans today, there are lots of them. There are even religious Americans who still care for the poor, for children, for a fair and more just society. There are even tolerant Americans still. odd huh? But there is also this world I outline in the OP and it dominates much of the conversation today. It is a force as yesterday's news proved.

An exception proves nothing, surely you know that. You also created situations I didn't even mention. Government and industry: Lincoln, FDR, Eisenhower, JFK, War on Cancer, research, etc etc, I'd suggest you check their histories. You seemed totally lost near the end of your reply? I expected better.

========

Wiseacre,

One of the first steps to a solution of a problem is recognizing it, naming it. You claim lots exist but name none, then write as if the OP is the fault and not a description of what I see as a major aspect of the problem. We'll never all sing kumbaya together, but for 50 years after FDR, we had a time in which we (mostly) worked together. You are right that another GD may have changed things, but why is that necessary? Why don't positive values stick and what causes them to come undone?
 
If anyone doubts the premise of the OP look only at the reaction yesterday to positive employment numbers. Since it didn't fit the managed narrative it was made up. Jack Welsh, a leading corporate outsourcer, among other things, claims some Chicago folks fudged the number, when Nixon didn't agree it was the Jews in the BLS who controlled the numbers. The difference today is even good news is met with derision from the right.

Not that I am going to defend the idiot here, but a .3% increase in employment with less than 120,000 new jobs is unprecedented. Even Obama says the numbers aren't good enough, even as he trumpets them to prove how much he accomplished in 4 years.

By the way, his name is Welch.

Why is it required that quotes be placed around points that contradict or don't align perfectly with a reader's worldview. Stanley Fish gives an interesting explanation here: How the Right Hijacked the Magic Words Read it.

Quotes are required when you quote someone, even if it doesn't contradict your worldview.

Quantum Windbag,

I thought of the ninth as you did but false witness and neighbors are limited things, read Kundera - 'do not lie' requires we answer, Gawd never said we had to answer. 'Bear witness' is out loud, lies are, as the nuns said, often omissions.

Why do you insist on playing the stupid hick when you spell the word god? Are you afraid that your lying about the contents of the bible might attract his attention if you spell it right?

While it is true that bearing false witness against someone is different than simply lying, it is still lying that is being addressed, and politicians routinely lie about each other all the time. If you don't believe me watch the video of the presidential debate where Obama repeatedly misstated Romney's position on tax cuts.

By the way, under the law handed down in Leviticus it specifically says not to lie to each other. Since Leviticus is an expansion of the law and outlines the obligations of believers under it, the 9th clearly means more than simply not to bear false witness.[/quote]



I have to say your replies were very weak. I am not claiming there are not hard working good Americans today, there are lots of them. There are even religious Americans who still care for the poor, for children, for a fair and more just society. There are even tolerant Americans still. odd huh? But there is also this world I outline in the OP and it dominates much of the conversation today. It is a force as yesterday's news proved.

Of course you have to claim that,m because otherwise you would have to reexamine your worldview and conclude that you are wrong about everything. That is unacceptable to you because that would mean that everyone you admire has been lying to you. The world you outlined in the OP does not exist, it never did, and never will.

An exception proves nothing, surely you know that. You also created situations I didn't even mention. Government and industry: Lincoln, FDR, Eisenhower, JFK, War on Cancer, research, etc etc, I'd suggest you check their histories. You seemed totally lost near the end of your reply? I expected better.

Do you understand the old saying that exceptions prove the rule? Prove, in this context, means test, and every rule that has an exception fails the test. My exceptions test your claims. That places the burden on you to explain why my exceptions exist if your claims are true.

This is supposed to be a debate, you don't win debates by pretending you are more informed, you prove it. Why don't you point out what I got wrong instead of simply pretending I am confused? Is it because you have learned that, when you challenge me on facts you always end up losing the argument?
 
My problem with the OP is in it's bias, as it is in everything Midcan5 and others write. I have no problem with pointing out the perceived mistakes that a president or Congress or either party makes, but I do have a problem with the claims or insinuations that such mistakes are exclusively to one side. Surely every politician/party supports policies that may not be as productive or effective as a different choice might be, nor should we be overlooking the methods employed to push through policies with no regard to the minority party's position. For many on this board, their side is always right and other always wrong and evil to boot. Such an outlook is counter productive, and only adds to the probability that we as a nation will not be able to resolve our differences in a reasonable fashion. We are left with only one other way, namely a very bad time that will cause a lot of misery and last too long. That is the legacy we are leaving to future generations, and all of the divisive polarization we have now merely hastens that day.
 
My problem with the OP is in it's bias, as it is in everything Midcan5 and others write. I have no problem with pointing out the perceived mistakes that a president or Congress or either party makes, but I do have a problem with the claims or insinuations that such mistakes are exclusively to one side. Surely every politician/party supports policies that may not be as productive or effective as a different choice might be, nor should we be overlooking the methods employed to push through policies with no regard to the minority party's position. For many on this board, their side is always right and other always wrong and evil to boot. Such an outlook is counter productive, and only adds to the probability that we as a nation will not be able to resolve our differences in a reasonable fashion. We are left with only one other way, namely a very bad time that will cause a lot of misery and last too long. That is the legacy we are leaving to future generations, and all of the divisive polarization we have now merely hastens that day.

My problem is his assumption, without proof or evidence, that having differences of opinions is bad.
 
Quantum Windbag,

I thought of the ninth as you did but false witness and neighbors are limited things, read Kundera - 'do not lie' requires we answer, Gawd never said we had to answer. 'Bear witness' is out loud, lies are, as the nuns said, often omissions.
Why do you insist on playing the stupid hick when you spell the word god? Are you afraid that your lying about the contents of the bible might attract his attention if you spell it right?

Regardless of the point of this thread, I have to reiterate what QW pointed out here. I can’t take you seriously when you insist on referring to god in this manner. It is childish, offensive and inane. I am an atheist and I still can’t take you seriously. It is no different than referring to Obama as Hussein or the past poster that insisted on saying Obama Salami. They are childish. If you want to be taken seriously, then simply spell the damn word correctly.

/end rant
 
The Replies accuse me of bias while missing their own bias and not countering a single item noted in the OP. Not one.

Obama's point on Romney's tax cuts is the consensus of every economist. Look it up rather than just saying it ain't so.

The world of the OP is evident and obvious, watch Fox or listen to right wing media any day. I cannot counter your points because you made none. But I have lots of examples from republicans that prove my points.

Mitch McConnell: "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president." Jeez, and here they said it was jobs!

Mitch McConnell: "Well first let me say the first single thing we can do for the American system is get rid of Obamacare. The single biggest direction we can take in terms of improving health care is to get rid of this monstrosity." Let them go to emergency room, sound fair and just? Or food for the hungry? Not sure where they go? Do you.


Wiseacre, Show me the bias. I think each item describes a piece of America today, that is why I call them facts. The above quotes are from one side and they were the same when Clinton won. You live in a bubble you fail even to see or acknowledge. You are right when you say we will never be able to solve a single issue if we all had to agree. Consider any step forward, and there will be always be some who disagree. That is why we vote, and that is why legislation and courts are required. There is such a thing as bad ideas and not supporting healthcare for those in need is one of them. Lots more if you look around.

Differences of opinion matter, and getting rid of the safety nets for seniors and children matter. Not a good argument, prove your point is better.

And stuff on Jack to prove my point: The Case Against GE

"Don’t own a cafeteria: Let a food company do it. Don’t run a print shop: Let a printing company do that. It’s understanding where your real value added is and putting your best people and resources behind that. Back rooms by definition will never be able to attract your best. We converted ours into someone else’s front room and insisted on their best. This is what outsourcing is all about." Jack Welch


Regardless of the point of this thread, I have to reiterate what QW pointed out here. I can’t take you seriously when you insist on referring to god in this manner. It is childish, offensive and inane. I am an atheist and I still can’t take you seriously. It is no different than referring to Obama as Hussein or the past poster that insisted on saying Obama Salami. They are childish. If you want to be taken seriously, then simply spell the damn word correctly.

I use the spelling out of respect for some religious who do not write the word because of their religious tenets. So I misspell deliberately, not for any hidden reason.
 
You want examples of your bias? Well, let's take a look at parts of your OP:


Respect: When did America lose a trait essential for a democracy? Today even the office of the President has lost the respect of the right wing politicians and their followers in America. Imagine questioning a president's credentials rather than considering the state of the American economy or the American family? The loss in 2008 brought forth an even larger adversarial contingent than Clinton's win. Money manages the American mind today, and whenever it feels threatened it pays heavily to create a narrative of a lost America.


I suspect it isn't just the RWers who have lost respect for the office of the President. Monica Lewinsky? I do not claim that Bush was an angel, I was not happy with many of his policies or actions. Why do you cast aspersions on one side but not the other?

The loss in 2000 kinda upped the ante in the adversarial relationships in DC, wouldn't you say? Deserved or not, it's not like one party can claim the higher ground in their efforts to rise above the political gameplaying.



Do Nothing: It used to be America was the 'can do' nation, today it is the can't because that would cost money. FDR built the nation, Eisenhower built the nation, JFK built the nation, our history is full of national endeavors to create, build, and do better. What happened that the only spending now is done for the war machine? America crumbles as republicans and many democrats worry about a deficit that only became a deficit after 2008.


I think that deficits were well underway prior to 2008, wasn't the national debt approx 10 trillion when Obama took office? You want to say that the repubs didn't care too much about it until Obama came into office, fair enough. But I can tell you a whole lot of people out in the weeds did care, that's where the groundswell of support for the Tea Partys came from. Many conservatives were not happy with Bush43's prolifigate spending, nor with the length of both wars, nor with the fact that they were off budget. So too are we unhappy with the fact that the US Senate has not produced a budget in over 3 years, nor witht he fact that Obama's budgets were so ridiculous that they got voted down with 0, count 'em, zero supporting votes.


Debt: The magic of debt talk is the party which created most of the debt accuses the other party of creating what its own policies did. Lowered taxes are helping to destroy America's education, research, industrial and infrastructure bases, but who cares. I got mine. Now even babies look out from the TV and goo-goo ga-ga over a solvable problem. But please note those same babies are not given the promise given seniors of no changes to so called 'entitlement' programs. Odd huh.


This paragraph is one big load of crap. Democrats have every bit as much responsibility to control spending AND manage the tax code as the repubs, it is disingenuous to blame it all on one party, especially since the repubs never had anything approaching the majorities in the Congress that Obama did in his 1st 2 years. The debt is where it is now because neither side exercised any fiscal responsibility whatsoever, and it is BS to lay it all on one side.

Lowered taxes? Are you talking about the 2003 tax cuts? Didn't the Dems support that? You got any evidence to support the claim that the things you mentioned are being destroyed? Or that the tax cuts had anything to do with it? Do you hink the answer is to throw more money at 'em? Hasn't worked real well so far, has it? Infrastructure, let's talk about that. How come we didn't get the shovel ready jobs and infrastructure projects that we were promised when Obama sold us on the Stimulus? The truth is that all those areas need to be reformed in how they are managed, these days it's all about picking winners and losers, mostly losers.



Media / PACs: Our SCOTUS let loose the loonies. A soap box for every crazy, an electorate bombarded with nonsense, and a platform for hatred and disagreement. Seriously do people really believe the nonsense on Fox or anything from Limbaugh, Coulter, Beck, or Savage? Seriously. They used to be called sophists, today money pays them well for sophistry works.


Freedom of Speech means anybody can say what they want, within a few certain limits. You don't like it, tough shit. I don't see any references to MSNBC, Paul Krugman, or any of the LWers on TV or in print. Why is that, you don't think your bias is showing here?


Neo-Straw-Manning: Today there is no requirement you analyze an opponent's political values, accomplishments, or policies, all that is necessary is that you go into your own mind, pick among your fears and biases and then attribute them to the other. If you doubt that, consider Dinesh D'Souza's Obama, a person who doesn't exist but has a book and movie. Fiction as truth.


Michael Moore.


Racism Returns: Hidden in birtherism, welfare comments, food stamp notice, and voter registration changes since 2008 is something Americans pretend does not exist. It is the elephant in the room that must be denied at any cost. Check only the shenanigans at the RNC this year or the signs at tea party events. They mean well, they're just misunderstood. Sure they do.


Demagoguery at it's worst. Some idiot somewhere waves a sign and you want to paint everybody to the right of center as having the same values. Wonder what signs they were carrying at the OWS rallies. The RNC had it's idiot moments too, wonder if the DNC might've had a few too. I wouldn't throw any stones if I were you, the Dems are more than willing to play the race card at any opportunity, justified or not. How sad that you or anyone would think that racism in this country is confined to one party, and worse, try to capitalize on such nonsense for political gain. You should be embarassed.


Joe McCarthy Returns: Can anyone really consider seriously a congressman who thinks there are communists in our representative body? Do any of them know any history? Geography? When stupid people are elected to congress the results are obvious.


Bernie Sanders. He's a socialist, close enough. You are indirectly implying that the only stupid people elected to Congress are repubs. Don't think so.
 
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The Replies accuse me of bias while missing their own bias and not countering a single item noted in the OP. Not one.

That is a flat out lie. For one thing, you really didn't make that many points in the OP, most of your points were simply you attempting to say the same thing in a different way. Then is the simple fact that I countered your claim that the founders had more respect for the president than we do, they actually had less, and had no problem lobbing personal insults at each other as part of their political campaigns. They actually fought against a government system that demanded that the people in the government be accorded respect, which is why they insisted on including the 1st Amendment in the Constitution, so that people can actually say whatever they want about the blood sucking scum that believes that they are in charge.

Yet, for some reason, you dismissed that, despite the fact that I provided actual quotes from Jefferson and Adams.

That make you the one demonstrating bias by not addressing the points people make.

Obama's point on Romney's tax cuts is the consensus of every economist. Look it up rather than just saying it ain't so.

If it is the consensus of every economist why did his own campaign admit on CNN that they made it up?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0g8COdYcU0"]Obama Campaign Concedes Their 5 Trillion Attack Is Not True - YouTube[/ame]

The world of the OP is evident and obvious, watch Fox or listen to right wing media any day. I cannot counter your points because you made none. But I have lots of examples from republicans that prove my points.

Just like it is evident and obvious that the universe is only 5000 years old.

Mitch McConnell: "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president." Jeez, and here they said it was jobs!

Yep, he said that, I admit it. The question is, can you tell me when he said it?

Mitch McConnell: "Well first let me say the first single thing we can do for the American system is get rid of Obamacare. The single biggest direction we can take in terms of improving health care is to get rid of this monstrosity." Let them go to emergency room, sound fair and just? Or food for the hungry? Not sure where they go? Do you.

How is the fact that he disagrees with your opinion proof that the world is hopelessly divided? If that is the criteria, doesn't that make you the problem, not him?

Wiseacre, Show me the bias. I think each item describes a piece of America today, that is why I call them facts. The above quotes are from one side and they were the same when Clinton won. You live in a bubble you fail even to see or acknowledge. You are right when you say we will never be able to solve a single issue if we all had to agree. Consider any step forward, and there will be always be some who disagree. That is why we vote, and that is why legislation and courts are required. There is such a thing as bad ideas and not supporting healthcare for those in need is one of them. Lots more if you look around.

Are you saying no Democrats are saying anything that indicates they refuse to work with Republicans? If so, that proves your bias more than anything anyone else can say.

Differences of opinion matter, and getting rid of the safety nets for seniors and children matter. Not a good argument, prove your point is better.

If I prove your point is wrong, which I did, how does that leave me with an obligation to prove my point is better? If you want to try and prove that I am wrong that the US has been divided, and divisive, go for it. That would require you to prove that my claims that the political ads from the past, which I got from a source that cites the Library of Congress, were faked. Then you can prove that Stephanie Cutter, the Deputy Chief of Staff for the Obama Campaign, lied when she said that Obama's points about Romney's taxes were, essentially, lies.

That leaves you a lot to prove before you can even get to the point of trying to prove that your points are better than mine, and actually put me in the position of defending my views.

By the way, in case you don't trust the Library of Congress, here is the Wiki article that talks about how political parties actually worked in the 19th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_election_campaigns_in_the_19th_century

And stuff on Jack to prove my point: The Case Against GE

"Don’t own a cafeteria: Let a food company do it. Don’t run a print shop: Let a printing company do that. It’s understanding where your real value added is and putting your best people and resources behind that. Back rooms by definition will never be able to attract your best. We converted ours into someone else’s front room and insisted on their best. This is what outsourcing is all about." Jack Welch

What point is that? That he said what he said? Gee willikers Wally, how insightful.

Did you see the part where I called him an idiot?

Did you see the part where I asked you what Romney said about the exact same thing?

Regardless of the point of this thread, I have to reiterate what QW pointed out here. I can’t take you seriously when you insist on referring to god in this manner. It is childish, offensive and inane. I am an atheist and I still can’t take you seriously. It is no different than referring to Obama as Hussein or the past poster that insisted on saying Obama Salami. They are childish. If you want to be taken seriously, then simply spell the damn word correctly.

I use the spelling out of respect for some religious who do not write the word because of their religious tenets. So I misspell deliberately, not for any hidden reason.

This is an illustration of why you are wrong. When I am responding directly to a Jewish person that prefers that G-d not be spelled out I follow there convention of not using the vowels. Substituting another vowel instead of actually respecting their culture just indicates your arrogance, it doesn't show one iota of respect for them.
 
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Ah yes, the race card played once again. I know, I know, the popularity of Herman Cain and Col. West is just a double entendre by right wing Nazis who are receiving instructions from Joseph Goebbels. Wait a minute, isn't he dead? Keep up the good work: Your credibility shrinks with every repetition.
 
Bernie Sanders, our single commie! That was rotf funny. I'll check back when time permits to see if there is any substance to the replies. The OP if read without the wingnut filter is aimed at the culture of today, admittedly pointing primarily in one direction. I acknowledge that but it doesn't make it untrue, and as proof see comment below from July this year. Oh, and two wrongs don't make a right, that thinking has to go - see equivalency comment - nailed it.

"A recent political cartoon in the Kansas City Star depicts a newborn Barack Obama playing with a hammer and sickle in his crib. A billboard looming over the interstate near Fort Riley, Kansas, conveys a similar message, describing the president as a “Wannabe Marxist Dictator.” As it happens, the billboard was paid for by a Colorado-based commodity broker—but when she picked that spot as the place to proclaim her dementia to the world, her instincts were right on the money. Kansas is the burned-over district of conservatism, and these days the unholy spirit is sweeping through it yet again. The venomous reaction to Obama’s purported Leninism is hardly confined to the mass media. Over lunch with an officer of the Kansas Farmers Union who once publicly expressed his personal admiration for the president, I hear story after fantastical story of the state’s toxic political climate: relatives who have turned on this upstanding farmer, complete strangers who yell at him in the town café. The most disturbing tale involves an old, ailing friend whom the farmer visited on his deathbed: “As I was getting ready to leave, he looked up and said, ‘I told you Obama wasn’t worth a shit.’ You’d think he’d have other things to think about at that time.” That’s how powerful the collective hallucination is here in my home state: even deathbed philosophizing takes a back seat to that seductive dream of dictatorship resisted."

Excerpt from 'Letter from Brownbackistan' By Thomas Frank Harper's July 2012

=====

PS I think I can spell Gawd however I like - an atheist acting presumptuous over my spelling is hypocritical, discussion is moot, or maybe agnostic fits better.

THE MANY NAMES OF GOD
 
America has always been a divided country, from the getgo. Differences in all sorts of ways and opinions, and not all that respectful or considerate of opposing viewpoints. We even went through a civil war once, killing each other in large numbers. Hopefully that isn't going to happen again, but tempers were hot then and getting hot now. I don't see a coming together unless and until we suffer through another great depression that changes the thought process over the functions of the various levels of gov't and our own personal and civic responsibilities. We're good at coming together in response to crises such as war and 9/11. But not so good at heading them off, particularly on domestic issues like debt and deficits, taxation and spending, the social safety net and national security.

The truth is (IMHO) that we've got major problems that like a toothache will not go away, but instead will get worse over time. Worst of all, future generations will have to bear the burden we are creating, and we have not even really begun to develop solutions and the processes required to get out of the hole we've dug for ourselves. Hell, we haven't even put down the shovels yet.

So when I read stuff like the OP, I realize we're still digging. Still pointing fingers at the other side, with no effort or intention of moving away from our entrenched position. So it is in Washington and in the states around the country, nobody seems to want to put down the shovel. Instead, we call the opposition liars, deceptive evil people who care nothing for the good of the country. Charges and counter charges fly back and forth, it's like fiddling while Rome is burning. Looks to me like the USA is figuratively burning, and all we're doing is arguing about whose at fault.

The governmental philosophy that used to allow so many people of differing opinions to live in the same country was the federal nature of the country. States used to have far more ability to tailor their laws to meet the desires of the population. The current problem is the rapid gain in power of the federal level of government.

To be fair, I do blame the states partially for this mess. The southern states' abuse of the 14th and 15th amendments after Plessey v. Fergueson up until the 1960's required federal intervention to right the wrongs that judgement created, but it appears that the feds so liked the power they got from this, that they and people who are in favor greater federal power have pushed this concept into almost every other facet of life, areas where States used to have far more leeway to decide how to legislate said facets.

If we were to go back to more state level laws, and less federal fiats, I think the country would become much less polarized.
 
Bernie Sanders, our single commie! That was rotf funny. I'll check back when time permits to see if there is any substance to the replies. The OP if read without the wingnut filter is aimed at the culture of today, admittedly pointing primarily in one direction. I acknowledge that but it doesn't make it untrue, and as proof see comment below from July this year. Oh, and two wrongs don't make a right, that thinking has to go - see equivalency comment - nailed it.

"A recent political cartoon in the Kansas City Star depicts a newborn Barack Obama playing with a hammer and sickle in his crib. A billboard looming over the interstate near Fort Riley, Kansas, conveys a similar message, describing the president as a “Wannabe Marxist Dictator.” As it happens, the billboard was paid for by a Colorado-based commodity broker—but when she picked that spot as the place to proclaim her dementia to the world, her instincts were right on the money. Kansas is the burned-over district of conservatism, and these days the unholy spirit is sweeping through it yet again. The venomous reaction to Obama’s purported Leninism is hardly confined to the mass media. Over lunch with an officer of the Kansas Farmers Union who once publicly expressed his personal admiration for the president, I hear story after fantastical story of the state’s toxic political climate: relatives who have turned on this upstanding farmer, complete strangers who yell at him in the town café. The most disturbing tale involves an old, ailing friend whom the farmer visited on his deathbed: “As I was getting ready to leave, he looked up and said, ‘I told you Obama wasn’t worth a shit.’ You’d think he’d have other things to think about at that time.” That’s how powerful the collective hallucination is here in my home state: even deathbed philosophizing takes a back seat to that seductive dream of dictatorship resisted."

Excerpt from 'Letter from Brownbackistan' By Thomas Frank Harper's July 2012

=====

PS I think I can spell Gawd however I like - an atheist acting presumptuous over my spelling is hypocritical, discussion is moot, or maybe agnostic fits better.

THE MANY NAMES OF GOD

You think you can make up your own spelling rules? And then you criticize people that call you on your arrogance?
 
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Bernie Sanders, our single commie! That was rotf funny. I'll check back when time permits to see if there is any substance to the replies. The OP if read without the wingnut filter is aimed at the culture of today, admittedly pointing primarily in one direction. I acknowledge that but it doesn't make it untrue, and as proof see comment below from July this year. Oh, and two wrongs don't make a right, that thinking has to go - see equivalency comment - nailed it.

"A recent political cartoon in the Kansas City Star depicts a newborn Barack Obama playing with a hammer and sickle in his crib. A billboard looming over the interstate near Fort Riley, Kansas, conveys a similar message, describing the president as a “Wannabe Marxist Dictator.” As it happens, the billboard was paid for by a Colorado-based commodity broker—but when she picked that spot as the place to proclaim her dementia to the world, her instincts were right on the money. Kansas is the burned-over district of conservatism, and these days the unholy spirit is sweeping through it yet again. The venomous reaction to Obama’s purported Leninism is hardly confined to the mass media. Over lunch with an officer of the Kansas Farmers Union who once publicly expressed his personal admiration for the president, I hear story after fantastical story of the state’s toxic political climate: relatives who have turned on this upstanding farmer, complete strangers who yell at him in the town café. The most disturbing tale involves an old, ailing friend whom the farmer visited on his deathbed: “As I was getting ready to leave, he looked up and said, ‘I told you Obama wasn’t worth a shit.’ You’d think he’d have other things to think about at that time.” That’s how powerful the collective hallucination is here in my home state: even deathbed philosophizing takes a back seat to that seductive dream of dictatorship resisted."

Excerpt from 'Letter from Brownbackistan' By Thomas Frank Harper's July 2012

=====

PS I think I can spell Gawd however I like - an atheist acting presumptuous over my spelling is hypocritical, discussion is moot, or maybe agnostic fits better.

THE MANY NAMES OF GOD


Glad you got a giggle out of the single reference. You referenced a single Congressman who MAY think there are communists in our Congress, and then proceed to once again paint every conservative as "stupid". "Do any of them know any history? Geography?" Such demagoguery is both unfortunate and unwise, why are you so driven to denigrate those with a differing opinion. Wingnut filter? You betray your own predjudice.


You wrote:
" Joe McCarthy Returns: Can anyone really consider seriously a congressman who thinks there are communists in our representative body? Do any of them know any history? Geography? When stupid people are elected to congress the results are obvious. "


The Letter From Brownbackistan is both hateful and nonsense. But I have read similar crap on this board from both sides however. Again, do we paint everyone from Kansas as the same as the fool that put up that sign, or every person on this board who may be politically aligned with some idiot who posts hatefilled crap? To do so is intellectually dishonest and lazy. And contrary to the best interests of the entire country.
 
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More disjointed quotes, come on guys, I can read paragraphs, anyone read the Fish piece?

Wiseacre, I admit Bush was criticized greatly over the course of his administration, but the lack of respect today about Obama takes on a level in which a majority of republicans in some states, think he is foreign born, and of another religion than he is. It is different. Deficits were rarely mentioned when Bush was president, it wasn't until Obama was elected that it became an issue. See: The Contemporary Condition: The Republican Pincer Machine

I do agree debt is the responsibility of both parties, but that changed when the stimulus was used for America by the Obama administration. Consider the opposition to supporting the auto industry. But Clinton raised taxes as did Reagan, so what changed. Again my point. And yes, many Dems are just as bad when it comes to tax policy.

Media must have some connection to reality, when so many Americans know so little about the world, and so many of the same Americans listen to Fox it has to tell you something. Consider our President's birth place, his religion, source of the debt, start of the debt, bias is always present, but when it is complete BS, that isn't bias, it is lying.

Michael Moore did not imagine a person, D'Souza did. There is nothing wrong with that on a number of levels but when it is purely polically motivated I have a problem with it. Racism is obvious today but its form and its audience have changed. I have no idea why this isn't obvious, read many of the posters on this site. Lots of evidence if you looked. See. Poll: Most Americans see lingering racism -- in others - CNN.com

Sanders is below.

Quantum Windbag,

Yep, I am trying to make a consistent claim that the level of BS today has reached new heights. Call it what you like. Not sure where I insinuated the founders had more respect for the president, but the disrespect of Obama is of a different kind than usual. I shouldn't even have to explain that. See above.

Five trillion is according to every economist who has reviewed R's plan. 5000 years old? Where did that come from? Your other comments are not consistent, nor formed in a way I can answer. You have a habit of answering your own questions, or going off point for effect.


Glad you got a giggle out of the single reference. You referenced a single Congressman who MAY think there are communists in our Congress, and then proceed to once again paint every conservative as "stupid". "Do any of them know any history? Geography?" Such demagoguery is both unfortunate and unwise, why are you so driven to denigrate those with a differing opinion. Wingnut filter? You betray your own predjudice.

Take off the blinders for Zeus's sake! The 'letter' mentions another high level communist, did you miss that? Want his name? I'm sorry but you clearly don't see the connections between the administration being anti American - according to you guys - and the rest of comment in the letter. West is simply reinforcing the same BS. BS is primary to my points. There isn't a republican I can think of today who is as honorable, honest, and concerned with working people as Sanders. Name one if you disagree, and show me how. If Sanders is a communist America needs lots more. PS Socialism isn't communism.


A few links for the interested reader.


"“Neutral” commentators said it was “egregiously misleading” and a sign that the campaign in general was going to be rough. Romney refused to apologize. He said “what is good for the goose is good for the gander”--a quote that hovers somewhere between almost saying that he could identify similar misrepresentations from Obama and expressing identification with a base that is eager to have him run such lying attack ads. A senior advisor, Eric Fehrnstrom, announced that the ensuing controversy worked to the advantage of Romney because it called people’s attention to the economy: “...their reaction was quite hysterical,” he said, “But that was the point."" The Contemporary Condition: The Return of the Big Lie


"Reduce the deficit, they chant, by curtailing programs supporting the middle and poor classes. Quietly accept the double-trickle down process. But don’t you dare touch the entitlements of the rich that put everyone else at risk." The Contemporary Condition: The Real Entitlement Crisis


"Yet, more recently, as William Connolly and others have demonstrated, Christian religion and capitalist economics have again been fused tightly in the extreme conservative movement that has captured the Republican Party. This, I believe, is the main reason that so much of their economic reasoning appears irrational and in direct violation of mainstream economics. It disregards almost all available evidence regarding the efficacy of their specific, or more appropriately, often unspecific, economic policy proposals." The Contemporary Condition: The Church of Capitalism: Why Right-Wing Economics is Once Again not Rational
 
More disjointed quotes, come on guys, I can read paragraphs, anyone read the Fish piece?

Wiseacre, I admit Bush was criticized greatly over the course of his administration, but the lack of respect today about Obama takes on a level in which a majority of republicans in some states, think he is foreign born, and of another religion than he is. It is different. Deficits were rarely mentioned when Bush was president, it wasn't until Obama was elected that it became an issue. See: The Contemporary Condition: The Republican Pincer Machine

I do agree debt is the responsibility of both parties, but that changed when the stimulus was used for America by the Obama administration. Consider the opposition to supporting the auto industry. But Clinton raised taxes as did Reagan, so what changed. Again my point. And yes, many Dems are just as bad when it comes to tax policy.

Media must have some connection to reality, when so many Americans know so little about the world, and so many of the same Americans listen to Fox it has to tell you something. Consider our President's birth place, his religion, source of the debt, start of the debt, bias is always present, but when it is complete BS, that isn't bias, it is lying.

Michael Moore did not imagine a person, D'Souza did. There is nothing wrong with that on a number of levels but when it is purely polically motivated I have a problem with it. Racism is obvious today but its form and its audience have changed. I have no idea why this isn't obvious, read many of the posters on this site. Lots of evidence if you looked. See. Poll: Most Americans see lingering racism -- in others - CNN.com

Sanders is below.

Quantum Windbag,

Yep, I am trying to make a consistent claim that the level of BS today has reached new heights. Call it what you like. Not sure where I insinuated the founders had more respect for the president, but the disrespect of Obama is of a different kind than usual. I shouldn't even have to explain that. See above.

Five trillion is according to every economist who has reviewed R's plan. 5000 years old? Where did that come from? Your other comments are not consistent, nor formed in a way I can answer. You have a habit of answering your own questions, or going off point for effect.


Glad you got a giggle out of the single reference. You referenced a single Congressman who MAY think there are communists in our Congress, and then proceed to once again paint every conservative as "stupid". "Do any of them know any history? Geography?" Such demagoguery is both unfortunate and unwise, why are you so driven to denigrate those with a differing opinion. Wingnut filter? You betray your own predjudice.
Take off the blinders for Zeus's sake! The 'letter' mentions another high level communist, did you miss that? Want his name? I'm sorry but you clearly don't see the connections between the administration being anti American - according to you guys - and the rest of comment in the letter. West is simply reinforcing the same BS. BS is primary to my points. There isn't a republican I can think of today who is as honorable, honest, and concerned with working people as Sanders. Name one if you disagree, and show me how. If Sanders is a communist America needs lots more. PS Socialism isn't communism.


A few links for the interested reader.


"“Neutral” commentators said it was “egregiously misleading” and a sign that the campaign in general was going to be rough. Romney refused to apologize. He said “what is good for the goose is good for the gander”--a quote that hovers somewhere between almost saying that he could identify similar misrepresentations from Obama and expressing identification with a base that is eager to have him run such lying attack ads. A senior advisor, Eric Fehrnstrom, announced that the ensuing controversy worked to the advantage of Romney because it called people’s attention to the economy: “...their reaction was quite hysterical,” he said, “But that was the point."" The Contemporary Condition: The Return of the Big Lie


"Reduce the deficit, they chant, by curtailing programs supporting the middle and poor classes. Quietly accept the double-trickle down process. But don’t you dare touch the entitlements of the rich that put everyone else at risk." The Contemporary Condition: The Real Entitlement Crisis


"Yet, more recently, as William Connolly and others have demonstrated, Christian religion and capitalist economics have again been fused tightly in the extreme conservative movement that has captured the Republican Party. This, I believe, is the main reason that so much of their economic reasoning appears irrational and in direct violation of mainstream economics. It disregards almost all available evidence regarding the efficacy of their specific, or more appropriately, often unspecific, economic policy proposals." The Contemporary Condition: The Church of Capitalism: Why Right-Wing Economics is Once Again not Rational

You are making a fool out of yourself.

In order to prove that it is worse today than at any point in history you have to deal with history, not fantasy. History tells us that politics has always been about lying, and that people actually accused the president of having syphilis within years of the ratification of the constitution. Until you accept the fact that history actually exists, and proves you wrong, you are going to continue making yourself look even more foolish.
 
Okay, I'm done here. I'm not going to waste any more time discussing this with somebody who uses blogs as supporting evidence. Clearly you cannot see any viewpoint but the one you support, so there's no point in continuing. Have a nice day.
 
Another Fact category?

Watching Jack Welch last week, and 60 Minutes Sunday created a kind of whacked out epiphany, Jack the outsourcer in chief is arguing the employment figures are fudged, and 60 minutes is primarily about socialist and communist countries and their massive manufacturing industries. Add the ads for luxury foreign cars, mostly from Japan, and any normal American should wonder. Friends tell me your couch is foreign made too. The Chinese, French, Japanese, Swiss, and Italians are monopolizing technologies America created - but to add insult to injury I find out the American made sunglasses I've bought many times, were crushed by the French who now own much of America's eye glass industry on all levels. Oakley is the brand. So think of this, the cars are mostly foreign made (not ours), the glasses are foreign made, the advanced telecommunications equipment is foreign made and anyone who thinks they can drown their sorrow in an American owned beer company better look for a micro brewery. It would seem the massive taxes of the European socialists, and the communist government must know a thing about markets and manufacturing Americans don't. Anyone know. Look up keiretsu sometime. Jobs anyone, jobs.....

Having watched Johnny Unitas play I forgot about that record till this week. Given the Saints playbook Sunday, Brees was a sure thing. Thankfully Football is not outsourced...yet...

'Hell no I ain't driving to no micro brewery this rot gut from walmart were cheap... drink up.'


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_1...y-espionage-risk/?tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_1...ses-so-expensive/?tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel
 
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