American Education, What Changed?

[Cain]

So, I am currently in a class for German II, and our teacher has spent quite sometime in Germany where he learned German and attended I school if I remember correctly. He has told us that German High Schoolers on average are much higher in their studies then us. He says that their pushed much harder, and that we are pushed through the system, not into the studies.

I agree with the last part, at this school at least, we have certain classes that can basically be summed up as the easy versions of whatever the subject. For examples:

Science
Biology I
Chemistry I
Honors Biology II
Honors Chemistry II
AP Biology
AP Chemistry

Then their is the OTHER Science Classes

Science
Agriculture Science (Don't believe this is offered anymore, not sure)
Physical Science
Environmental Science
Earth Science

The OTHER sciences are basically, crap. I have taken Agriculture Science, we did NOTHING but play around and I made I think a B+, not 100% sure. I am currently in Earth Science, the teacher is a 1st year, she is trying, but frankly she lets the kids tread over her too much.

My point is, we offer a lot of classes that really, are for the kids that never want to try. I have taken a few of them, and now that I am trying to catch up on all the "hard" classes, I regret allowing myself to lax for so long.

I am wondering, when did we as the US slow down in our educational standards and the Europeans go full-steam ahead? Or is this wrong, are we really about equal with the other nations in education? Is my information wrong?

Why am I asking? Well, I care about my nation, and although I doubt I can do much to change the education system, I would prefer to know the facts and be able to talk to a politician I want to vote for, before I vote. I know that I am a single human being, but I pretty much think this song could be my USMB theme song:

~Edit~ Decided this would be a better video, the original was Frank Sinatra singing with a bunch of kids from back in the day, preferred this video.

 

[Avatar4321]

Too much government, no accountability, bloated and irresponsible contracts.

sucks doesnt it?

 

[johnmarsh]

I like your thoughts about nation, We should also think about out education and its issue, I watched video many times, The Budget for education should be increase and pay teachers more.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Started in the 70's with the feel good liberal agenda. And has escalated over the last 40 years. No hurting the kids feelings, no grades, no accountability. No punishment.

 

[midcan5]

Please don't listen to Avatar4321 or RetiredGySgt, they both exemplify a part of the problem - both point to others as the fault in the same manner in which today's students always have an excuse whenever caught not prepared or when causing trouble. That is America today, it could be our new national motto. "Not me, it's their Fault."

But there is an aspect to this that is rarely mentioned but I see firsthand: class. The upper, more wealthy class send their spoiled Joanies and johnnies to private schools that cost too much for the average American. There is also the division within the better public schools in academic and what used to be called vocational education. But I've said it before and will say it again, in America education is not considered important, you have only to look at our attitudes towards so called common sense and nerds in science. Lots below.

"At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end. It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org

http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...ew-of-waiting-for-superman-2.html#post3065163
http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now-2.html#post2074607
http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647

 

[Cain]

Please don't listen to Avatar4321 or RetiredGySgt, they both exemplify a part of the problem - both point to others as the fault in the same manner in which today's students always have an excuse whenever caught not prepared or when causing trouble. That is America today, it could be our new national motto. "Not me, it's their Fault."

But there is an aspect to this that is rarely mentioned but I see firsthand: class. The upper, more wealthy class send their spoiled Joanies and johnnies to private schools that cost too much for the average American. There is also the division within the better public schools in academic and what used to be called vocational education. But I've said it before and will say it again, in America education is not considered important, you have only to look at our attitudes towards so called common sense and nerds in science. Lots below.

"At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end. It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org

http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...ew-of-waiting-for-superman-2.html#post3065163
http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now-2.html#post2074607
http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647

Checking the links, thanks.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

I always felt while in school, they were teaching to the lowest common denominator. Dumbing down everything. I hated it, was always at least two grade levels ahead of most in my class. This is because, I believe, I was taught to read at home before entering school. And did alot of reading.

Problem was, it continued even all the way through high school. Yeah, all the classes were easy. Homework? I'd finish it all in that class or in study hall, or right after lunch. I DETESTED the very idea of doing schoolwork at home, and simply refused to do so. Home is MY time, motherfuckers. Not yours.

Tests? A joke. I thought my disdain for the public school system would wane, until they also came up with "social promotion" wherein, they would let you advance to the next grade even though you flunked!

College wasn't much different. hell, you could pass without even attending the class much, if you shared political views with the professor in that course!

Johnny can't read, for a reason.

 

[psikeyhackr]

* SAT score decline
For the decade ending in 1962 the mean scores on the Scholastic Aptitude Test varied within about a 10 point range (from 471 to 479 on the verbal section and from 490 to 502 on the math section).
In 1963 these scores commenced a decline which continued for almost 20 years:

                         YEAR    VERBAL       MATH 
                         1962:         478          502 
                         1981:         424          466 
                                        -11%         -7%

From 1981 to 1991 the scores leveled off, holding within a few points of 425 Verbal and 470 Math. Some of this decline can be attributed to the fact that a wider range of students now take the test than took it in the l960s, but the Wirtz Commission concluded that about half of the decline represents an actual decline among students with qualifications similar to those taking the test earlier.
However, in early 1990 a nation-wide scandal came to light: it was revealed that school administrators and teachers, in their attempts to improve their standing in the community and to earn for themselves and their schools "improved student achievement" bonuses offered by the state governments, had been cheating on the achievement tests by providing their students with the answers prior to testing. This makes highly suspect the
"leveling off" of the SAT score decline that was reported in the mid-1980s.

Schooling in America

1962 is about when the first generation of kids who grew up watching a lot of television would have been taking their SATs.

How would we ever get a good objective evaluation of what TV does to kids? I confess I could not imagine growing up without television. But I would often rather read science fiction books than watch TV. But the stuff called SF has become shallow crap.

Oh no, the claim Star Wars is science fiction.

Good SF made science more interesting than most science teachers. Science is usually taught as if it is some abstract never never land and you can't see how it connects to reality. More math than necessary that teachers seem to dish out to make it look difficult rather than interesting. Forget it being FUN!

This is the 1950s perspective:

All Day September, by Roger Kuykendall
The Project Gutenberg eBook of All Day September, by Roger Kuykendall.

The Year When Stardust Fell, by Raymond F. Jones
The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Year When Stardust Fell, by Raymond F. Jones.

Modern SF has more recent scientific ideas like Black Holes and pocket computers but they don't have characters that communicate a scientific perspective of reality they just use cool high tech tools. The well known book Neuromancer is a perfect example.

So called science fiction without SCIENCE.

psik

 

[Midnight Marauder]

* SAT score decline
For the decade ending in 1962 the mean scores on the Scholastic Aptitude Test varied within about a 10 point range (from 471 to 479 on the verbal section and from 490 to 502 on the math section).
In 1963 these scores commenced a decline which continued for almost 20 years:

                         YEAR    VERBAL       MATH 
                         1962:         478          502 
                         1981:         424          466 
                                        -11%         -7%

From 1981 to 1991 the scores leveled off, holding within a few points of 425 Verbal and 470 Math. Some of this decline can be attributed to the fact that a wider range of students now take the test than took it in the l960s, but the Wirtz Commission concluded that about half of the decline represents an actual decline among students with qualifications similar to those taking the test earlier.
However, in early 1990 a nation-wide scandal came to light: it was revealed that school administrators and teachers, in their attempts to improve their standing in the community and to earn for themselves and their schools "improved student achievement" bonuses offered by the state governments, had been cheating on the achievement tests by providing their students with the answers prior to testing. This makes highly suspect the
"leveling off" of the SAT score decline that was reported in the mid-1980s.

Schooling in America

1962 is about when the first generation of kids who grew up watching a lot of television would have been taking their SATs.

How would we ever get a good objective evaluation of what TV does to kids? I confess I could not imagine growing up without television. But I would often rather read science fiction books than watch TV. But the stuff called SF has become shallow crap.

Oh no, the claim Star Wars is science fiction.

Good SF made science more interesting than most science teachers. Science is usually taught as if it is some abstract never never land and you can't see how it connects to reality. More math than necessary that teachers seem to dish out to make it look difficult rather than interesting. Forget it being FUN!

This is the 1950s perspective:

All Day September, by Roger Kuykendall
The Project Gutenberg eBook of All Day September, by Roger Kuykendall.

The Year When Stardust Fell, by Raymond F. Jones
The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Year When Stardust Fell, by Raymond F. Jones.

Modern SF has more recent scientific ideas like Black Holes and pocket computers but they don't have characters that communicate a scientific perspective of reality they just use cool high tech tools. The well known book Neuromancer is a perfect example.

So called science fiction without SCIENCE.

psik

Kids are more and more distracted than ever, making what distractions people my age had, pale in comparison mightily. Video games, facebook and twitter, hell the web in general, along with iPods, you name it.

 

[Care4all]

when i was in high school in Brooklyn, we had very large class size....maybe 40 students per class....this was mid to late 70's...what they did at the time was tested us, to see our learning levels and they put those of us honor students in accelerated classes with others on the same level of learning capabilities, and those that were above average in classes with their piers of the same, and those with an average level with others of the same level and so on and so forth....it made it easier for the teachers to teach to the maximum level of the student's abilities....we were tested each semester or maybe it was each year, with a Regents exam on every subject, and if we failed we were left back...this was long long long before the standard testing of no child left behind...

Anyway, it made school fun for me...being in a classroom with other students of the same level and much more interesting than when in a class that is trying to teach all students in one bland method of one size fits all.

then on top of this, in Brooklyn, in order to graduate high school, we needed 4 years of mathematics, and 4 years of English and 4 years of history and 3 years of Science and 4 years of a foreign language in order to graduate....there really was not much time to take the fancy dancey, easy electives...

I went to 9th and 10th grade in Brooklyn before we moved to south Jersey....the very end of 10th grade...

From the moment I got to high school in south jersey, (southern New Jersey) I was repeating everything I had learned in 9th grade in my accelerated courses in Brooklyn through Senior year...and in New Jersey we only needed 2 years of a foreign language and 2 years of math, and 2 years of Science and 2 years of History, and 4 years of English, in order to graduate....

the schools were crap in New jersey at the time....I don't blame this on the teachers, but their system, their expectations were so low for all of us, and the classroom size there was much much smaller than in Brooklyn, like only 20 students per class...

Why some school districts, are better at pushing their students and others are not is a real problem...

I am uncertain if schools in New York City are as good as they were when I attended High school there, and I am also uncertain if they still separate the children in to classes with children of the same learning level...due to parents calling foul...and not wanting their children to be put in to classes that may have been decelerated courses...so they could now have all students, slow or genius, in the same classrooms, but they did NOT do this back when I went to school there...and I would NOT trade that Public school education for any private school of today.

 

[rdean]

Fully half the country no longer respects education. Where are the "Science Fairs"? Now, instead of "science", half the country wants to teach the "alternative", which is "magical creation".

Then there is the war on teachers.

Comments from the last week:

He got a PHD which caused him to immediately lose all common sense.

A degree is "just a piece of paper".

Universities have been taken over by "Socialist/Communist Liberal Elites".

Of course, with half the country downing education, scores will drop. The bright spot is that people from all over the world are still coming to this country to learn because of those "Socialist/Communist Liberal Elite" Universities, which we all know are the best in the world. And the rest of the world knows it.

You don't see them running to Bob Jones or any of those right wing "institutions of barely learning anything of importance". Their biggest contribution is second rate lawyers.

 

[IanC]

what makes everyone think american education is so bad? according to PISA testing american students do quite well compared to the rest of the world. whites are similar to other whites , asians to other asians, and the blacks and hispanics do much better in the USA than in other parts of the world.

personally I think students take as much out of the educational system as they want and it has always been that way. too much focus is put on the underperforming schools and this makes people think all schools are failures. most are not. and many of the failing schools are victims of unrealistic expectations given the racial and ethnic makeup of the student body.

judging the highly homogenous countries like Finland or (industrialized parts of) China against the diverse US student population is comparing apples to apples+oranges.

that said, education could be better and more useful by standardizing curricula and bringing back acedemic tracking.

 

[jillian]

Too much government, no accountability, bloated and irresponsible contracts.

sucks doesnt it?

what is "too much government"? it's easy to throw words like that around, but they are meaningless...

as for no accountability, teachers are constantly accountable... constantly being measured.

perhaps if you had any experience with the public school system, you'd have answers that were more realisitic... because there are certainly problems, but not the ones you mention.

 

[Douger]

Started in the 70's with the feel good liberal agenda. And has escalated over the last 40 years. No hurting the kids feelings, no grades, no accountability. No punishment.

Exactly. Corporal punishment was a beautiful thing. It's the only thing that saved my sorry ass.
De-segregation didn't help either. Now all the white and Latino kids want to be *******(not to be confused with black folks) when they grow up.

 

[bodecea]

So, I am currently in a class for German II, and our teacher has spent quite sometime in Germany where he learned German and attended I school if I remember correctly. He has told us that German High Schoolers on average are much higher in their studies then us. He says that their pushed much harder, and that we are pushed through the system, not into the studies.

I agree with the last part, at this school at least, we have certain classes that can basically be summed up as the easy versions of whatever the subject. For examples:

Science
Biology I
Chemistry I
Honors Biology II
Honors Chemistry II
AP Biology
AP Chemistry

Then their is the OTHER Science Classes

Science
Agriculture Science (Don't believe this is offered anymore, not sure)
Physical Science
Environmental Science
Earth Science

The OTHER sciences are basically, crap. I have taken Agriculture Science, we did NOTHING but play around and I made I think a B+, not 100% sure. I am currently in Earth Science, the teacher is a 1st year, she is trying, but frankly she lets the kids tread over her too much.

My point is, we offer a lot of classes that really, are for the kids that never want to try. I have taken a few of them, and now that I am trying to catch up on all the "hard" classes, I regret allowing myself to lax for so long.

I am wondering, when did we as the US slow down in our educational standards and the Europeans go full-steam ahead? Or is this wrong, are we really about equal with the other nations in education? Is my information wrong?

Why am I asking? Well, I care about my nation, and although I doubt I can do much to change the education system, I would prefer to know the facts and be able to talk to a politician I want to vote for, before I vote. I know that I am a single human being, but I pretty much think this song could be my USMB theme song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJVewWbeBiY

~Edit~ Decided this would be a better video, the original was Frank Sinatra singing with a bunch of kids from back in the day, preferred this video.

It's called Tracking. The list you gave for German schools is only for those who have been college tracked and split off from the majority around 5-6th grade. In America, we're all "supposed" to be college track and just about everyone in HS is supposed to take those courses you listed.

That's your main difference right there. It's not PC to track. I know teachers who would LOVE to go back to tracking, but parents want all their little darlings to be in college prep courses...even if they can't even tie their own shoe laces.

 

[bodecea]

when i was in high school in Brooklyn, we had very large class size....maybe 40 students per class....this was mid to late 70's...what they did at the time was tested us, to see our learning levels and they put those of us honor students in accelerated classes with others on the same level of learning capabilities, and those that were above average in classes with their piers of the same, and those with an average level with others of the same level and so on and so forth....it made it easier for the teachers to teach to the maximum level of the student's abilities....we were tested each semester or maybe it was each year, with a Regents exam on every subject, and if we failed we were left back...this was long long long before the standard testing of no child left behind...

Anyway, it made school fun for me...being in a classroom with other students of the same level and much more interesting than when in a class that is trying to teach all students in one bland method of one size fits all.

then on top of this, in Brooklyn, in order to graduate high school, we needed 4 years of mathematics, and 4 years of English and 4 years of history and 3 years of Science and 4 years of a foreign language in order to graduate....there really was not much time to take the fancy dancey, easy electives...

I went to 9th and 10th grade in Brooklyn before we moved to south Jersey....the very end of 10th grade...

From the moment I got to high school in south jersey, (southern New Jersey) I was repeating everything I had learned in 9th grade in my accelerated courses in Brooklyn through Senior year...and in New Jersey we only needed 2 years of a foreign language and 2 years of math, and 2 years of Science and 2 years of History, and 4 years of English, in order to graduate....

the schools were crap in New jersey at the time....I don't blame this on the teachers, but their system, their expectations were so low for all of us, and the classroom size there was much much smaller than in Brooklyn, like only 20 students per class...

Why some school districts, are better at pushing their students and others are not is a real problem...

I am uncertain if schools in New York City are as good as they were when I attended High school there, and I am also uncertain if they still separate the children in to classes with children of the same learning level...due to parents calling foul...and not wanting their children to be put in to classes that may have been decelerated courses...so they could now have all students, slow or genius, in the same classrooms, but they did NOT do this back when I went to school there...and I would NOT trade that Public school education for any private school of today.

I too am a product of the New York state regents system and tracking. Tracking was good and class sizes could be larger when they were homogenious in ability. No longer because all parents want their darlings to be at least called college prep able.

 

[Anachronism]

You want to know what's changed in American Education..... American Society.

In the past one had to have a reasonable education in order to be able to survive in American Society. That's not the case anymore. It is easier now than ever before to survive (and in some ways thrive) in our society without an education than it ever was before. Affirmative Action, social welfare, EEO laws, etc... have all lead to the de-emphasis of an education as a means to succeed in life. Until that changes, the educational system will continue to fall further behind.

 

[Cain]

So, I am currently in a class for German II, and our teacher has spent quite sometime in Germany where he learned German and attended I school if I remember correctly. He has told us that German High Schoolers on average are much higher in their studies then us. He says that their pushed much harder, and that we are pushed through the system, not into the studies.

I agree with the last part, at this school at least, we have certain classes that can basically be summed up as the easy versions of whatever the subject. For examples:

Science
Biology I
Chemistry I
Honors Biology II
Honors Chemistry II
AP Biology
AP Chemistry

Then their is the OTHER Science Classes

Science
Agriculture Science (Don't believe this is offered anymore, not sure)
Physical Science
Environmental Science
Earth Science

The OTHER sciences are basically, crap. I have taken Agriculture Science, we did NOTHING but play around and I made I think a B+, not 100% sure. I am currently in Earth Science, the teacher is a 1st year, she is trying, but frankly she lets the kids tread over her too much.

My point is, we offer a lot of classes that really, are for the kids that never want to try. I have taken a few of them, and now that I am trying to catch up on all the "hard" classes, I regret allowing myself to lax for so long.

I am wondering, when did we as the US slow down in our educational standards and the Europeans go full-steam ahead? Or is this wrong, are we really about equal with the other nations in education? Is my information wrong?

Why am I asking? Well, I care about my nation, and although I doubt I can do much to change the education system, I would prefer to know the facts and be able to talk to a politician I want to vote for, before I vote. I know that I am a single human being, but I pretty much think this song could be my USMB theme song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJVewWbeBiY

~Edit~ Decided this would be a better video, the original was Frank Sinatra singing with a bunch of kids from back in the day, preferred this video.

It's called Tracking. The list you gave for German schools is only for those who have been college tracked and split off from the majority around 5-6th grade. In America, we're all "supposed" to be college track and just about everyone in HS is supposed to take those courses you listed.

That's your main difference right there. It's not PC to track. I know teachers who would LOVE to go back to tracking, but parents want all their little darlings to be in college prep courses...even if they can't even tie their own shoe laces.

I don't see how it is wrong to face the facts. I honestly don't know if I would have qualified for a college prep school, I doubt it. They'd probably start training me for the trade my family does, farming. Which isn't all that bad, if your making a profit not just on government subsidies lol.

 

[Montesquieu]

I remember having to stand in a corner of my headmaster's office over lunchtime, with my face to the wall.

I guess that that the differences in today's education is the lack of the inspiration punishment gives pupils. I guess that masochists love it!

 

[rikules]

So, I am currently in a class for German II, and our teacher has spent quite sometime in Germany where he learned German and attended I school if I remember correctly. He has told us that German High Schoolers on average are much higher in their studies then us. He says that their pushed much harder, and that we are pushed through the system, not into the studies.

I agree with the last part, at this school at least, we have certain classes that can basically be summed up as the easy versions of whatever the subject. For examples:

Science
Biology I
Chemistry I
Honors Biology II
Honors Chemistry II
AP Biology
AP Chemistry

Then their is the OTHER Science Classes

Science
Agriculture Science (Don't believe this is offered anymore, not sure)
Physical Science
Environmental Science
Earth Science

The OTHER sciences are basically, crap. I have taken Agriculture Science, we did NOTHING but play around and I made I think a B+, not 100% sure. I am currently in Earth Science, the teacher is a 1st year, she is trying, but frankly she lets the kids tread over her too much.

My point is, we offer a lot of classes that really, are for the kids that never want to try. I have taken a few of them, and now that I am trying to catch up on all the "hard" classes, I regret allowing myself to lax for so long.

I am wondering, when did we as the US slow down in our educational standards and the Europeans go full-steam ahead? Or is this wrong, are we really about equal with the other nations in education? Is my information wrong?

Why am I asking? Well, I care about my nation, and although I doubt I can do much to change the education system, I would prefer to know the facts and be able to talk to a politician I want to vote for, before I vote. I know that I am a single human being, but I pretty much think this song could be my USMB theme song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJVewWbeBiY

~Edit~ Decided this would be a better video, the original was Frank Sinatra singing with a bunch of kids from back in the day, preferred this video.

my response is merely to address a PART OF THE PROBLEM and NOT the WHOLE PROBLEM;


children of the same age are NOT all on the same emotional or intellectual level

yet we continue to "teach" them in AGE GROUPS and NOT in groups of children on th e same intellectual and emotional level

so a class of 30 kids has kids on HIGH LEVELS and kids on LOW LEVELS and kids at various stages inbetween.....

consequently we end up teaching to the LOWEST LEVEL and the higher levels suffer

twould be MUCH BETTER to place kids in classes based upon EQUAL (relatively) intellectual and maturity levels