American auto workers $71 per hr. Toyota $41 per hr. BAILOUT IS FOR UNION!

[Navy1960]

But you assume that Honda and Toyota are equally matched with American companies operating by an American standard when they are not. There is a CLEAR deficit in trade between American Auto companies and Asian Auto companies. I mean it's fucking massive. So, no, it's not accurate at all to assume that all things are equal when comparing the wages of an American Toyota plant with an American Ford plant when there is a giant trade deficit that allows asian car companies to offer 15/hr in the US while American companies cannot. let's see some equal trade happening between companies that we fall over each other to import from before we try to compare line worker wages.

Blaming Honda and Toyota for those trade imbalances is rather like someone blaming the workers at GM, Ford, or Chrysler for the agreements entered into by the management. Honda and Toyota did not make those trade agreements that allow them to bring cars and trucks into the United States , they simply take advantage of what our government has given them the ability to do. The plants they build here employ Americans, and use in many cases the same American supply chain the Big 3 do employing many more Americans. So is there a trade imbalance, yes there is, is that the fault of the Big 3 or Toyota or Honda no it's not, but rather it's the fault of the governments. I think it's only fair to insist that from a trade standpoint that there be a fair playing field. The line worker wages though here in the United States I'm sorry to say are from company to company just one of several factors that have caused the demise of these companies. If you want them to be more competitive then they have to reduce costs if that is on product production and keeping salary then so be it, it that is in less dealers and less employee's somewhere something is going to give. Let me cite you an example, did you know at one time the best Toyota plant , in terms of quality and workmanship was once a GM plant and is for the most part staffed by former GM employee's it was under GM the worst in terms of Quality and workmanship and costs. I'm not one Shogun to blame this downfall on the Union but it has come to the point where wages and benefits have to be adjusted or the line workers will have no jobs at all.

 

[Shogun]

I am pretty sure that after a day of training I could put 1000 drive shafts together. Thats what an assembly line is....you learn one aspect and you stay there ands thats all you do.

HA! yea, dude.. i'd LOVE to see a single fucking CEO take the reigns of a line worker after one single day of training and perform that job function to the same capacity of a worker that has sills other than typing, schmoozing suits and playing golf. You must really be under the assumption that Ceo's work like arch angels eternally guarding the garden of eden or something.


Can those assemly people do the accounting? The litigations? The Risk Management? The Engineering? The Research and Development? Should I go on? No they can't because they weren't educated on it. It's not like you need a mechnical expereince to go work on a line. They hire you , you go to your stations and they train you wha you need to screw in and put together and then move onto the next.

If given a comparable period of training the yes. Ceos aren't out litigating a goddamn thing. Engineering? Are you fucking serious? Do you really thing the CEO of GM has ever printed a fucking blueprint? gimme a fucking break. these roles and the men filling them are not rubbing fucking elbows with Hercules, dude. Homer did not keep them in mind when writing the fucking Odyssey. RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT? Yea, dude.. I"D mention that too given the fucking failure of their product to sell! And yes, it's not like you are like a fucking skill-less leper pushing a button by the line like a fucking lab rat.
If you think that Auto labor is equivalent to digging a ditch then it's clear why your hardon for executives doesn't validate your bullshit rhetoric. It's clear that you've never worked a line in your life.


Upper Management, has to manage all those people, salaries, productivity, ie HAVE MORE RESPONSIBILITIES!

WHICH SURE THE FUCK WAS MONEY WELL SPENT, EH? Managing salaries? Are you fucking kidding me? MANAGE? Again, it's clear you have very little experience with what you are talking about.


Now before you try to turn it around and say begging for a bailout is real tough. I AM NOT DEFENDING THESE PARTICULAR CEOS. they fucked up!

b-b-but.. it takes a DEMI GOD to play the CEO ROLE! We ALL know that DEMI GODS can't fuck up! They have SKILL SETS and a DEGREE! They wear TIES and BLACK SOCKS!


also, the SUV is fucking fine, they didn't market the 4 door sedan that is their problem which are always better on fuel as well. Accords, Camry's etc... cornered the market from them. SUV sale swent down and they had no product to sell. You apparently never worked in the auto industry before.

And you apparently have never heard of evidence.

Rising fuel costs hurt Big Three's sales
But Japanese automakers hit the right note with subcompacts
DETROIT - Rising gas prices took a toll on the U.S. auto industry in May, flattening sales and causing steep declines for some trucks and sport utilities but giving a boost to Japanese automakers whose new subcompacts hit the market at the right time.

General Motors Corp. said sales were down 12 percent for the month, while Ford Motor Co. reported a 2 percent decline and DaimlerChrysler AG’s Chrysler Group saw sales fall nearly 11 percent.
Rising fuel costs hurt Big Three's sales - Autos- msnbc.com


Gosh, where was the fucking CEO-Bat signal in 2006?!?!

 

[Shogun]

Blaming Honda and Toyota for those trade imbalances is rather like someone blaming the workers at GM, Ford, or Chrysler for the agreements entered into by the management. Honda and Toyota did not make those trade agreements that allow them to bring cars and trucks into the United States , they simply take advantage of what our government has given them the ability to do. The plants they build here employ Americans, and use in many cases the same American supply chain the Big 3 do employing many more Americans. So is there a trade imbalance, yes there is, is that the fault of the Big 3 or Toyota or Honda no it's not, but rather it's the fault of the governments. I think it's only fair to insist that from a trade standpoint that there be a fair playing field. The line worker wages though here in the United States I'm sorry to say are from company to company just one of several factors that have caused the demise of these companies. If you want them to be more competitive then they have to reduce costs if that is on product production and keeping salary then so be it, it that is in less dealers and less employee's somewhere something is going to give. Let me cite you an example, did you know at one time the best Toyota plant , in terms of quality and workmanship was once a GM plant and is for the most part staffed by former GM employee's it was under GM the worst in terms of Quality and workmanship and costs. I'm not one Shogun to blame this downfall on the Union but it has come to the point where wages and benefits have to be adjusted or the line workers will have no jobs at all.

I suggest you cull your replies before the free trade capitalists start eyeing you with the same pink eyed stare that they reserve for anyone not riding their fucked up bandwagon. We NEED tarrifs and minimal trade caps. We NEED protectionist policies that will do more than stomp out American production and toss it like chum to the sharks of foreign business. I'd say you might just be suprised at how this crisis might turn around if we were not all busy reaching for our ankles thanks to free market capitalists. AND, i'd say that any cut in labor cost, post chapter 11, should be matched with a doubled rate for CEOs whose lifestyles never changed through this entire fandango. Pretending that some guy with a title who also puts his skivvies on one leg at a time somehow deserves a rediculous salary while those who ACTUALLY DO THE FUCKING WORK are pared off like whittled shaving is not only logically fallacious but enabling a cycle of golden parachute abuse. Especially when, at the end of the day, a Higher Paid labor force benefits this society more than a monstrously paid executive staff. All day long.

 

[Andrew2382]

god you are so fucking stupid

When I listed those jobs I wasn't saying CEO's do them, we were discussing college educated jobs vs non college educated occupations. Do you have fucking ADD or something? You can't stay focused on one topic, take some fucking medication or something.

What I love is you think that Upper Management/CEO"s all they do is play golf an dnot work. Just shows how fucking ignorant you really are? Have you ever met any CEO's?

And yes upper management, manages things like payroll, and productivity, expenses etc... Like I said before you are clumping every corp we have into one basket because of the 7 that are in trouble. There are thousands of corps that do right by their employees and are doing fine as well.

Yes, of course gas prices hit SUV sales, however it didn't murder them. Notice what your own fucking article said, sub compacts hit at the right time.

The big 3 just focused on the SUV's during the90's and 2000's and didn't market their sedans and more fuel effiecent cars. Now it may be too late for them. When everyone was buying those SUV's they should ahve beem marketing the sedan and compact just as hard.

 

[Shogun]

god you are so fucking stupid

When I listed those jobs I wasn't saying CEO's do them, we were discussing college educated jobs vs non college educated occupations. Do you have fucking ADD or something? You can't stay focused on one topic, take some fucking medication or something.

College education does not fill the fucking vacuum when a fucking DRIVESHAFT need to be installed, idiot. You think you can pull off ANY line work just because you have a degree that says you can type and have read some fucking text books? Give me a fucking break. If you want to start talking shit, dude, then so be it. It's going to start looking bad if you begin to cry like a fucking baby just because i'm stomping a mudhole in your proverbial ass. Maybe there is a college course you could take to avoid this reality.



What I love is you think that Upper Management/CEO"s all they do is play golf an dnot work. Just shows how fucking ignorant you really are? Have you ever met any CEO's?

Yes. i have. More than I'd care to admit. And, if you don't think golf and gladhanding suit wearing asskissers is a significant portion of the corporate culture then I'd suggest you go read something.

BusinessWeek Online: BW Magazine


And yes upper management, manages things like payroll, and productivity, expenses etc... Like I said before you are clumping every corp we have into one basket because of the 7 that are in trouble. There are thousands of corps that do right by their employees and are doing fine as well.


yea dude.. I'm pretty sure your opinion of "doing right" is more in line with the same kind of "doing right" that gave us dirt wages in mexican pesos south of the border. This particular Auto example is just an indication of a larger problem with your types falling over each other trying to validate 2% wealthfare while acting like paying labor is about as socially valuable as wearing an "I Heart Hitler" shirt to a fucking bar mitvah.





Yes, of course gas prices hit SUV sales, however it didn't murder them. Notice what your own fucking article said, sub compacts hit at the right time.

YA.. it sure didn't *gough*bailout*cough* murder these companies! And, hey, I guess your demi-gods coulnd't see what a bunch of fucking foreighners could see.. hell, they ONLY had a domestic fucking view of the upcoming gas crunch!





The big 3 just focused on the SUV's during the90's and 2000's and didn't market their sedans and more fuel effiecent cars. Now it may be too late for them. When everyone was buying those SUV's they should ahve beem marketing the sedan and compact just as hard.

yea, well, so much for your theory that corporate execs require the skills god gave fucking the arch angels mike, gabe and lucy! THEY made this decision and WE get to pay for it. Yet, here you are acting as if ceo's deserve more than labor just because THEIR fuckups came at the end of college rather than orientation. Looks like your bandwagon is rolling off a cliff, dude.

 

[sealybobo]

What I love is you think that Upper Management/CEO"s all they do is play golf an dnot work. Just shows how fucking ignorant you really are? Have you ever met any CEO's?

My brother is a VP. He tells me all about the CEO's. Rule number one, feed the generals first. Rule number 2, never forget rule number one.

Just like the unions are greedy, so are the CEO's. What do both have that the rest of us don't? They have the power to get pay raises. I don't work for a union, so I have to wait for my company to feel like giving me a raise. And they won't until the economy is so good that they start losing good employees to the competition.

This is one reason I think they trashed the economy on purpose. Until this year, the GOP was saying the economy was great. Corporate profits and CEO pay was great for 8 years. But I knew companies were cutting wages, letting people go and sending jobs overseas. 9-11 helped them push their radical agenda.

And, I want to know what happened from 1999 to now?

Checks for 1998 to average $6,100, 39% more than last year's


NEW YORK (CNNfn) - Some 160,000 of Ford Motor Co.'s U.S. employees have cause for celebration Thursday after the company's president said they'll receive record profit-sharing checks for 1998.
Ford president Jacques Nasser says eligible U.S. employees will get an average $6,100 when the checks are distributed March 3. That's 39 percent more than the previous record $4,400 passed out to employees for 1997.
"We earned several coveted profitability and quality awards, as well as top safety ratings," Nasser says. "Our efforts paid off in enhanced shareholder value."
Ford (F) has been paying profit sharing under terms of a 1982 contract agreement with the United Auto Workers. There have been 13 payments since the first one in 1984 to reflect 1983 results. Payments were skipped in the lean years from 1990 to 1992.

Ford profit share a record - Jan. 21, 1999

You are all haters. You are jealous that auto employees were sharing the wealth. So you dummys work for non union places and your CEO gets all the money. Do you get profit sharing? I didn't think so.

And I'll say it again. The only reason you, or any of us, makes what we make, is because of what the Unions make. Maybe not the people down south who are happy to make $15 hr. That's why Toyota and Honda and Walmart started there. They knew they could get your sorry asses to work for them for next to nothing.

And the GOP from 2000-2006 ruined the American economy and sent so many jobs overseas because they want to lower our wages up north too. We, fortunately, are smart enough to vote them out of office.

Ohio, Florida, Colorado, Virginia and a few other former Red states woke up too.

Maybe we'll stop jobs from going overseas before it affects you. I hope so. Not for your sake, but for the rest of us. But we'll save you too, whether you want to be saved or not. And you'll take credit for whatever we do. And you'll obstruct us every step of the way. And if you are successful, you'll blame us for failing.

 

[Andrew2382]

god talking to you is like talking to a fucking cucumber.

"College education does not fill the fucking vacuum when a fucking DRIVESHAFT need to be installed, idiot. You think you can pull off ANY line work just because you have a degree that says you can type and have read some fucking text books? Give me a fucking break. If you want to start talking shit, dude, then so be it. It's going to start looking bad if you begin to cry like a fucking baby just because i'm stomping a mudhole in your proverbial ass. Maybe there is a college course you could take to avoid this reality."

The fact that I thinK i can pull off any job doesn't dereive from me having a piece of paper that says I graduated from a school of higher learning. The fact that I know what the fuck I am doing and am intelligent tells me that with training I can put together anything on an assembly line. It's not like 1 person builds the whole fucking car. One person does the tire, the brakes, the engine, the windows, the doors...etcc..A lot of it is robotic and computerized to minimize the fucking work. It's not that difficult. Why on earth you think it's fucking rocket science to stand ina spot have a car roll up to you put on a brake pad and wait for the next one is somethign that needs extensive training is beyond me.



"Yes. i have. More than I'd care to admit. And, if you don't think golf and gladhanding suit wearing asskissers is a significant portion of the corporate culture then I'd suggest you go read something.

BusinessWeek Online: BW Magazine"

Ok, so CEO's play golf for business meetings...you think they do that every fucking day? Upper management is not out ther eplaying golf every god damn day. At least the responsible ones aren't. You have some strange belief I am defending CEO's when I ain't. They fucked up and I know they did and they need to be accountable for it. Doctor's play a lot of golf too, is their work trivial? You don't need to tell me about the corporate culture, thanks. I work in it.


"yea dude.. I'm pretty sure your opinion of "doing right" is more in line with the same kind of "doing right" that gave us dirt wages in mexican pesos south of the border. This particular Auto example is just an indication of a larger problem with your types falling over each other trying to validate 2% wealthfare while acting like paying labor is about as socially valuable as wearing an "I Heart Hitler" shirt to a fucking bar mitvah."

I know, apparently 72 bucks an hour is dirt wages right? The thing is too, I have nothing against the factory worker, I know they work very hard and make a great product. Paying labor is fine, however it has to be fucking reasonable...paying 73 an hour when the competition is paying 40 and the average american is around 25 isn't fucking reasonable!

YA.. it sure didn't *gough*bailout*cough* murder these companies! And, hey, I guess your demi-gods coulnd't see what a bunch of fucking foreighners could see.. hell, they ONLY had a domestic fucking view of the upcoming gas crunch!


lol, there you go again thinking I am defending these CEO's...what the fuck is wrong with you. This management has been awful! They got greedy and thought the SUV would be it and din't market the sedan and it buried them! Terrible management and foresite on their part and they need to be fired and new management needs to come in and restructure.


"yea, well, so much for your theory that corporate execs require the skills god gave fucking the arch angels mike, gabe and lucy! THEY made this decision and WE get to pay for it. Yet, here you are acting as if ceo's deserve more than labor just because THEIR fuckups came at the end of college rather than orientation. Looks like your bandwagon is rolling off a cliff, dude.



The college degree doesn't mean they have the right to be greedy and make bad decisions genius. You have a hard on for thinking that I am defending the CEO's to these companies that have failed. I defend CEO's that do their company good not bad. I also defend the workers on the floor, everyone gets credit, but lets remember just like if the workers weren't there the upper management wouldn't have a job, it goes the other way around.

 

[DiamondDave]

How many have you heard about lately? Bundled with the last round of Airline bailout etc. I'd say the excuse of "rare skills to act as ceo" is a bunch of baby shit smelling tripe. Indeed, it sure does take a fucking near genius with skills like mr. fan-fucking-tastic to run the enrons, eh? This "rare skill" bullshit is about as laughable as GM's "lets make suvs while gas is 4 dollars a fucking gallon" strategy!

As I thought, blowhard, you have nothing

It is a fact that the ability to run a huge corporation is more rare and tougher to obtain than the skill to screw on a door handle or insert a cam shaft..

Go smoke another bowl to gain some more of your brilliance...

 

[Zoomie1980]

Would I argue that that is PART of what it will take to save them? No.... but it is going to ALSO take the corrupt unions to back off their outrageous compensation contracts.. it will also take redesigning the business model for each of the big 3, to streamline and become competitive in their niche market

There's a successful business model right down in Tennessee, Alabama, and S. Carolina. Simply force the Big 3 to adopt that. Close all the obsolete plants, completely retool the others, dump the pensions and outrageous health care contracts and employ the company as they do down there. And get out in front of the alternative energy revolution. They should no longer make a single traditional gasoline powered vehicle after 2012 or so. All their large trucks should be natural gas powered, not diesel.