America was founded as an enlightened multicultural Nation

[WelfareQueen]

The

#1. We will start with the Puritans

The first group of “Mayflower” Christians to set foot on what was to become Massachusetts’s soil were separatists meaning they left the Church of England behind. Those separatists were eventually absorbed into the following groups of non-separatist Puritans who under Congregationalist Churches maintained a loyal relationship with the Church of England until the revolt against King Charles in 1776 was declared.

In no way should the early separatist Puritans be confused with the Revolutionary War Separatists. Many of the 1776 separatists were not Christian in a Puritan/Calvinistic sense at all. They were more philosophically aligned with the modern liberal mindset of the times when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

“So who, then, were the Puritans? While the Separatists believed that the only way to live according to Biblical precepts was to leave the Church of England entirely, the Puritans thought they could reform the church from within. Sometimes called non-separating Puritans, this less radical group shared a lot in common with the Separatists, particularly a form of worship and self-organization called “the congregational way.” What’s the Difference Between Puritans and Pilgrims?​

The Puritans did not found English America nor were they representative of most of the first waves of English settlers. Please read about Jamestown and it's influence. They would never have been a Massachusetts Colony were it not for Virginia preceding it a generation before.

There is an excellent book The River of Pearl and Gold: A Story of Jamestown you should read.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

I wrote: “It’s Christianity that was historically divisive and repulsive “ in reference to George Washington’s opinion during the era in which he lived.

I guess you have opined that this subverts

subversion

Maybe you can provide an explanation comprised of more than one word as to why you believe what I and Washington wrote subverts religion.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#203 reply to #24

the culture was overwhelmingly Christian.

therefore you admit revolutionary America was not absolutely Christian. There was mire than one culture in that case. Hence multi-cultural.

 

[ding]

It’s Christianity that was historically divisive and repulsive.

^subversion

I’m expressing a point of view that accurately defines the UN peaceful history of Christianity in Europe that was known to great Revolutionary War leaders such as George Washington.

Do you consider Washington’s disparaging views on the history of Christianity to be wrong and is therefore subversive to religion?

Your quoting skills were lacking. So, no, I didn't see his.

But hey if you are saying you aren't criticizing Christianity, then we are on the same page. Christianity is great.

 

[ding]

I wrote: “It’s Christianity that was historically divisive and repulsive “ in reference to George Washington’s opinion during the era in which he lived.

I guess you have opined that this subverts

subversion

Maybe you can provide an explanation comprised of more than one word as to why you believe what I and Washington wrote subverts religion.

Still not seeing George criticize Christianity. But since you think Christianity is great, I have no complaints. Glad you aren't criticizing Christianity.

 

[ding]

. It's what you post in the thread.

What is the specific content that I have posted in this thread that subverts religion?

This is what I hoped could be discussed on this thread.

“Anyone convinced or of the opinion that Protestant Christianity was ”tied” to the US Constitution when it was written are certainly welcome to bring history, facts, and the best knowledge about the hearts, minds and souls of our founding fathers and the religion, philosophy and science they absorbed during their lifetimes to make that case.”

What prevents you from discussing whether or not you think - Protestant Christianity was ”tied” to the US Constitution when it was written?

We are on the same page. You aren't criticizing Christianity. I consider that a victory.

 

[ding]

It’s Christianity that was historically divisive and repulsive.

^subversion

I’m expressing a point of view that accurately defines the UN peaceful history of Christianity in Europe that was known to great Revolutionary War leaders such as George Washington.

Do you consider Washington’s disparaging views on the history of Christianity to be wrong and is therefore subversive to religion?

I don't think he was. But we are cool, because YOU aren't.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#208 reply to #31

I am saying that religious freedom is not a sign of multiculturalism.

It’s much more than a sign:

Religious freedom is the bedrock upon which to build a multicultural society.

That is why it’s clear that America was founded as an enlightened multicultural Nation.

 

[ding]

#208 reply to #31

I am saying that religious freedom is not a sign of multiculturalism.

It’s much more than a sign:

Religious freedom is the bedrock upon which to build a multicultural society.

That is why it’s clear that America was founded as an enlightened multicultural Nation.

You should have kept reading the quote, dummy.

It is a sign that they were against religious oppression.

 

[ding]

In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#211 reply to #209

You should have kept reading the quote, dummy.

I did read the rest of your quote. Your problem, however is, I agree with it but your observation “It is a sign that they were against religious oppression” does not in any way support your stubborn clueless observation that “... that religious freedom is not a sign of multiculturalism.”

What culture needs religious freedom more so than a multicultural society?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#212 reply to #206

We are on the same page. You aren't criticizing Christianity. I consider that a victory.

How is it that you had to back off from your fallacy that I was subverting religion to accepting the reality that I am not criticizing Christianity when making the point that America was founded as an enlightened multicultural society is a victory for you?

 

[ding]

#211 reply to #209

You should have kept reading the quote, dummy.

I did read the rest of your quote. Your problem, however is, I agree with it but your observation “It is a sign that they were against religious oppression” does not in any way support your stubborn clueless observation that “... that religious freedom is not a sign of multiculturalism.”

What culture needs religious freedom more so than a multicultural society?

They weren't multicultural. They opposed a national religion because they were against religious oppression. They were perfectly fine with letting each state establish a state religion.

 

[ding]

#212 reply to #206

We are on the same page. You aren't criticizing Christianity. I consider that a victory.

How is it that you had to back off from your fallacy that I was subverting religion to accepting the reality that I am not criticizing Christianity when making the point that America was founded as an enlightened multicultural society is a victory for you?

I don't believe it for starters so getting you to crawfish away from your beliefs is a victory.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#55

I say that America was founded as a Christian nation because the evidence for this is overwhelming.

You have contradicted yourself in post #55 and #213

#213

They were perfectly fine with letting each state establish a state religion.

#215 Did the framers specify that states must establish a Christian state religion?

if you have evidence of that please present it now.

 

[ding]

#55

I say that America was founded as a Christian nation because the evidence for this is overwhelming.

You have contradicted yourself in post #55 and #213

#213

They were perfectly fine with letting each state establish a state religion.

#215 Did the framers specify that states must establish a Christian state religion?

if you have evidence of that please present it now.

Madison's draft establishment clause applied to the states and that was defeated in the senate.

Half of the states had established state religions at the time the constitution was ratified by the states.

The error in logic is yours.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#526 Religion and Ethics

Doesn’t matter if Jefferson was a Christian.

He had Christian values and principles.

Everyone who is raised in America has Christian values and principles.

The error in logic is yours.

Nope - above is a great example of bad logic.

#217 reply to #216
I see you refuse to answer my question whether or not our founding fathers stipulated in the Constitution that states were required to adopt only done version of Christianity as their state religion.

of course they did not so it is rediculous and absurd to run around declaring that the United States if America was founded as a Christian Nation.

the Nation was founded on multiculturalism and of course ‘practiced’ Christianity was a major part of the culture at the time, but the founders in no way forced Christianity on any single new citizen or limited the choice of it’s new citizens to some bowing their heads to some hierarchy of Christian beliefs.

 

[ding]

#526 Religion and Ethics

Doesn’t matter if Jefferson was a Christian.

He had Christian values and principles.

Everyone who is raised in America has Christian values and principles.

The error in logic is yours.

Nope - above is a great example of bad logic.

#217 reply to #216
I see you refuse to answer my question whether or not our founding fathers stipulated in the Constitution that states were required to adopt only done version of Christianity as their state religion.

of course they did not so it is rediculous and absurd to run around declaring that the United States if America was founded as a Christian Nation.

the Nation was founded on multiculturalism and of course ‘practiced’ Christianity was a major part of the culture at the time, but the founders in no way forced Christianity on any single new citizen or limited the choice of it’s new citizens to some bowing their heads to some hierarchy of Christian beliefs.

Madison's draft establishment clause applied to the states and that was defeated in the senate. So we know that the Founder's accepted state established religions. In fact, half of the states had established state religions at the time the constitution was ratified by the states.

So we know that the establishment clause was not written to promote multiculturalism as you claim. It was written expressly to prevent the Federal government from interfering with state established religions.

No amount of arm waving on your part will change these facts and logic.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#219 reply to #218

So we know that the establishment clause was not written to promote multiculturalism as you claim.

What is wrong with you? I’m not claiming the establishment clause was written to promote multiculturalism. The establishment clause is the progressive result of rational religion and belief in multiculturalism.

So we know that the Founder's accepted state established religions.

Never claimed all of them did not accept state established religions. Some did, some didnt. State religion is not a national religion. Some founders wanted a national CHRISTIAN religion. They did not win the day because multiculturalism did on a national federal level.

And you keep repeating the best argument against your fallacy that America was founded as a “Christian” nation. The founders accepted that states could enact a state religion but they meant to protect
the individual from being coerced into conversion and submission to state religion. And they succeeded.

it’s called freedom of religion and freedom from religion if one so chooses.

Some reading for your MADISON file:

​

James Madison, the father of both the Constitution and the First Amendment, consistently warned against any attempt to blend endorsement of Christianity into the law of the new nation. "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions," he wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments in 1785, "may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?"​

You do one helluva lot of blending “endorsement of Christianity into the law of the new nation.“ with your “founded as a Christian Nation” fallacies.

When Madison uses the words “in exclusion” here:

​

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions,"​

He is expressing an endorsement of multicultural tolerance for all other religions outside the Christian realm. That is multiculturalism at its finest by first generation Americans. And there was plenty of it.

 

[ding]

#219 reply to #218

So we know that the establishment clause was not written to promote multiculturalism as you claim.

What is wrong with you? I’m not claiming the establishment clause was written to promote multiculturalism. The establishment clause is the progressive result of rational religion and belief in multiculturalism.

So we know that the Founder's accepted state established religions.

Never claimed all of them did not accept state established religions. Some did, some didnt. State religion is not a national religion. Some founders wanted a national CHRISTIAN religion. They did not win the day because multiculturalism did on a national federal level.

And you keep repeating the best argument against your fallacy that America was founded as a “Christian” nation. The founders accepted that states could enact a state religion but they meant to protect
the individual from being coerced into conversion and submission to state religion. And they succeeded.

it’s called freedom of religion and freedom from religion if one so chooses.

Some reading for your MADISON file:

​

James Madison, the father of both the Constitution and the First Amendment, consistently warned against any attempt to blend endorsement of Christianity into the law of the new nation. "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions," he wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments in 1785, "may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?"​

You do one helluva lot of blending “endorsement of Christianity into the law of the new nation.“ with your “founded as a Christian Nation” fallacies.

When Madison uses the words “in exclusion” here:

​

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions,"​

He is expressing an endorsement of multicultural tolerance for all other religions outside the Christian realm. That is multiculturalism at its finest by first generation Americans. And there was plenty of it.

Your claim was the establishment clause proved...

America was founded as an enlightened multicultural Nation

It's the freaking title of the thread.

Someone needs to ask the native Americans if...

America was founded as an enlightened multicultural Nation