All this presumption that the CO shooter is mentally ill.

[Katzndogz]

Loughner probably can't be tried because he's severely schizophrenic.

Holmes, seems like he was a lot more meticulous.

Hey, another rule we need to get rid of... letting these people refuse medication to control their symptoms.

Lougher won't be tried because he is incompetent to stand trial. Holmes is incompetent to stand trial. Even if, and if you want to use a hypothetical, even if both were sane enough the commit these acts at the time they did them, they are now too insane to participate in a trial.

I suspect both of them will be put on trial because the standard for insanity is ridiculously high.

It's been over a year and Loughner still hasn't come to trial and it is acknowledged that he may never come to trial. Holmes likely will never come to trial. The standard to claim an insanity defense has nothing to do with competency to stand trial.

 

[dilloduck]

But was he BORN that way ? Could he have prevented his mind from snapping ?

 

[Katzndogz]

Just cause he killed a dozen or so most seem to think the guy is mentally ill.

He stockpiled weapons ammo and protective gear. He stalked and killed a bunch of people wounding many more. One can safely assume given those facts he is mentally unstable. Does he have a specific condition? Who knows. His actions are NOT those of a sane person. AT least not sane in the USA, maybe a jihadist in the middle east might call him sane.

Holmes is not insane because he stalked and killed, or that he planned and amassed a substantial arsenal He's not insane because he was able to rig up a sophisticated booby trap in his apartment. He is insane because he believes himself to be a comic book character. When he ordered the material, when he built the booby trap, when he went to the theater, he believed himself to be the Joker, so he was able to plan and act as the Joker. That's why he is insane.

 

[Peach]

Just cause he killed a dozen or so most seem to think the guy is mentally ill.

He stockpiled weapons ammo and protective gear. He stalked and killed a bunch of people wounding many more. One can safely assume given those facts he is mentally unstable. Does he have a specific condition? Who knows. His actions are NOT those of a sane person. AT least not sane in the USA, maybe a jihadist in the middle east might call him sane.

Holmes is not insane because he stalked and killed, or that he planned and amassed a substantial arsenal He's not insane because he was able to rig up a sophisticated booby trap in his apartment. He is insane because he believes himself to be a comic book character. When he ordered the material, when he built the booby trap, when he went to the theater, he believed himself to be the Joker, so he was able to plan and act as the Joker. That's why he is insane.

He claims he is the Joker, it will take more than HIS word to avoid a trial however.

 

[dilloduck]

He stockpiled weapons ammo and protective gear. He stalked and killed a bunch of people wounding many more. One can safely assume given those facts he is mentally unstable. Does he have a specific condition? Who knows. His actions are NOT those of a sane person. AT least not sane in the USA, maybe a jihadist in the middle east might call him sane.

Holmes is not insane because he stalked and killed, or that he planned and amassed a substantial arsenal He's not insane because he was able to rig up a sophisticated booby trap in his apartment. He is insane because he believes himself to be a comic book character. When he ordered the material, when he built the booby trap, when he went to the theater, he believed himself to be the Joker, so he was able to plan and act as the Joker. That's why he is insane.

He claims he is the Joker, it will take more than HIS word to avoid a trial however.

Gotham City must have the Joker's prints on file somewhere.

 

[Cecilie1200]

But was he BORN that way ? Could he have prevented his mind from snapping ?

Assuming his mind snapped, and he's not just bullshitting to avoid trial and prison, that's not really something over which one has much control.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I think it is a very bad path to go down for our society to start labeling right and wrong, good and evil in terms of "sane and insane". Immorality - or amorality, as the case may be - is a completely different thing from insanity. If we start with "only a crazy person would commit a mass murder; SANE people wouldn't do it", and by "sane" we mean "regular decent people", we will then progress to "only crazy people commit murders" and then to "only crazy people commit crimes".

If we refuse to recognize the spectrum of good and evil as something completely separate and apart from mental illness, we not only do a grave disservice to those who genuinely suffer from mental illness by making them subject to stigmatization for the actions of people who have nothing in common with them, we also make ourselves as a society incapable of effectively defending ourselves against those who would use our compassion, horror, and desire to rationalize and explain to further their own selfish aims. We crippled ourselves this way once in the 60s, and apparently, that was just long enough ago for us to forget the awful results of such thinking.

 

[Peach]

Holmes is not insane because he stalked and killed, or that he planned and amassed a substantial arsenal He's not insane because he was able to rig up a sophisticated booby trap in his apartment. He is insane because he believes himself to be a comic book character. When he ordered the material, when he built the booby trap, when he went to the theater, he believed himself to be the Joker, so he was able to plan and act as the Joker. That's why he is insane.

He claims he is the Joker, it will take more than HIS word to avoid a trial however.

Gotham City must have the Joker's prints on file somewhere.

Many try to "shrink out" & fail. His meticulous planning indicates a high degree of mental functioning. Bundy tried to shrink out repeatedly, but the care he used in removing fingerprints was used as evidence he had capacity.

 

[Cecilie1200]

He claims he is the Joker, it will take more than HIS word to avoid a trial however.

Gotham City must have the Joker's prints on file somewhere.

Many try to "shrink out" & fail. His meticulous planning indicates a high degree of mental functioning. Bundy tried to shrink out repeatedly, but the care he used in removing fingerprints was used as evidence he had capacity.

That's because Bundy wasn't insane. He was as sane as bread. He was just evil.

 

[Liability]

It does seem a bit like insanity to plot out a mass murder based on a comic book character.

As a legal matter, I doubt the defense is going to go with "alibi."

I don't think "mid-identification" is gonna work.

"It was an accident" seems destined to failure.

"Oh fuck, I didn't know any of the weapons were loaded!" is (let's call it straight) pretty much a non-starter.

"I done did do it, but it was a matter of self-defense" is also not coming up as a strong contender.

So, what's that leave, as a practical matter? Sounds to me like he's got the old "I did it, but . . . " defense. Insanity. Although in CO it appears to be a version of the "Irresistible Impulse" defense.

Colorado Statutes

Title 16. CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS

CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

Article 8. Insanity - Release

Part 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS

Current through 2011 Legislative Session

§ 16-8-101. Insanity defined - offenses committed before July 1, 1995

(1) The applicable test of insanity shall be, and the jury shall be so instructed: "A person who is so diseased or defective in mind at the time of the commission of the act as to be incapable of distinguishing right from wrong with respect to that act is not accountable. But care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives, and kindred evil conditions, for when the act is induced by any of these causes the person is accountable to the law.".
(2) The term "diseased or defective in mind", as used in subsection (1) of this section, does not refer to an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct.
(3) This section shall apply to offenses committed before July 1, 1995.

History. L. 72: R&RE, p. 225, § 1. C.R.S. 1963: § 39-8-101. L. 83: Entire section amended, p. 672, § 1, effective July 1. L. 84: (1) amended, p. 490, § 1, effective February 6. L. 95: (3) added, p. 71, § 1, effective July 1.

-- § 16-8-101. Insanity defined - offenses committed before July 1, 1995.

THEN compare:

Colorado Statutes

Title 16. CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS

CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

Article 8. Insanity - Release

Part 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS

Current through 2011 Legislative Session

§ 16-8-103. Pleading insanity as a defense

(1)(a) The defense of insanity may only be raised by a specific plea entered at the time of arraignment; except that the court, for good cause shown, may permit the plea to be entered at any time prior to trial. The form of the plea shall be: "Not guilty by reason of insanity"; and it must be pleaded orally either by the defendant or by the defendant's counsel. A defendant who does not raise the defense as provided in this section shall not be permitted to rely upon insanity as a defense to the crime charged but, when charged with a crime requiring a specific intent as an element thereof, may introduce evidence of the defendant's mental condition as bearing upon his or her capacity to form the required specific intent. The plea of not guilty by reason of insanity includes the plea of not guilty.
(b) This subsection (1) shall apply only to offenses committed before July 1, 1995.
(1.5)(a) The defense of insanity may only be raised by a specific plea entered at the time of arraignment; except that the court, for good cause shown, may permit the plea to be entered at any time prior to trial. The form of the plea shall be: "Not guilty by reason of insanity"; and it must be pleaded orally either by the defendant or by the defendant's counsel. The plea of not guilty by reason of insanity includes the plea of not guilty.
(b) This subsection (1.5) shall apply to offenses committed on or after July 1, 1995.
(2) If counsel for the defendant believes that a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity should be entered on behalf of the defendant but the defendant refuses to permit the entry of the plea, counsel may so inform the court. The court shall then conduct such investigation as it deems proper, which may include the appointment of psychiatrists or psychologists to assist a psychiatrist to examine the defendant and advise the court. After its investigation the court shall conduct a hearing to determine whether the plea should be entered. If the court finds that the entry of a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity is necessary for a just determination of the charge against the defendant, it shall enter the plea on behalf of the defendant, and the plea so entered shall have the same effect as though it had been voluntarily entered by the defendant himself.
(3) If there has been no grand jury indictment or preliminary hearing prior to the entry of the plea of not guilty by reason of insanity, the court shall hold a preliminary hearing prior to the trial of the insanity issue. If probable cause is not established, the case shall be dismissed, but the court may order the district attorney to institute civil proceedings pursuant to article 65 of title 27, C.R.S., if it appears that the protection of the public or the accused requires it.
(4) Before accepting a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity, the court shall advise the defendant of the effect and consequences of the plea.

History. L. 72: R&RE, p. 226, § 1. C.R.S. 1963: § 39-8-103. L. 75: (3) amended, p. 926, § 26, effective July 1. L. 95: (1) amended and (1.5) added, p. 73, § 4, effective July 1. L. 2010: (3) amended, (SB 10-175), ch. 188, p. 783, § 21, effective April 29.

-- http://search.jurisearch.com/NLLXML...11&Title=16&datatype=S&noheader=1&nojumpmsg=0

 

[Liability]

18-1-802. Insanity.

(1) (a) A person who is insane, as defined in section 16-8-101, C.R.S., is not responsible for his or her conduct defined as criminal. Insanity as a defense shall not be an issue in any prosecution unless it is raised by a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity as provided in section 16-8-103, C.R.S.

(b) This subsection (1) applies to offenses committed before July 1, 1995.

(2) (a) A person who is insane, as defined in section 16-8-101.5, C.R.S., is not responsible for his or her conduct defined as criminal. Insanity as a defense shall not be an issue in any prosecution unless it is raised by a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity as provided in section 16-8-103, C.R.S.

(b) This subsection (2) shall apply to offenses occurring on or after July 1, 1995.

Source: L. 71: R&RE, p. 412, 1. C.R.S. 1963: 40-1-902. L. 72: p. 268, 7. L. 96: Entire section amended, p. 5, 4, effective January 31.

-- COCODE

 

[uscitizen]

But was he BORN that way ? Could he have prevented his mind from snapping ?

Kinda like The Bush supporter defense?

but Judge ,I was born with a right wing brain.

 

[Liability]

But was he BORN that way ? Could he have prevented his mind from snapping ?

Kinda like The Bush supporter defense?

but Judge ,I was born with a right wing brain.

The mental illness is found in those of you with severe Bush Derangement Syndrome.

 

[Valerie]

Why? Murder isn't automatically insane. If I decide to kill my husband because I want to cash in on his life insurance policy, am I insane, or am I just evil?


Seems to me that it's a completely sane, logical choice to make, if one is starting from the amoral position that selfish personal desires take more precedent than other people's lives.

Yeeeah, cuz starting from an amoral position that personal desires take precedent over people's lives, isn't INSANE.........?



No sane person could do something so horrible...

No, there's nothing insane about being amoral. Lots of people are, and simply never have occasion to think their needs require killing someone.

It's very childish, fuzzy thinking to merely lump anything you can't or don't want to face and understand under the heading of "insane", and does a lot of harm to people who truly are.

No sane person could do something so horrible as to take an amoral position toward murder of innocents, period. Your very childish and fuzzy thinking merely lumps all your "selfish personal desires" as justification for that which you don't want to face and understand, namely that if you think killing innocent life is required to achieve them, then you are insane...

 

[Big Fitz]

Just cause he killed a dozen or so most seem to think the guy is mentally ill.

I suspect he's afflicted by some sort of mental illness. That said, I am not sure. He does seem to exhibit more and more evidence this was a rational and planned attempt to gain infamy... which he has succeeded in. That level of desire for attention, notoriety does seem to carry base implications of mental illness.

Nobody wants to believe that someone who does something so monstrous is, for all intents and purposes... sane.

Then again, I like to piss off Warsies by saying Hannibal Lecter would make the perfect Jedi.

 

[Peach]

Gotham City must have the Joker's prints on file somewhere.

Many try to "shrink out" & fail. His meticulous planning indicates a high degree of mental functioning. Bundy tried to shrink out repeatedly, but the care he used in removing fingerprints was used as evidence he had capacity.

That's because Bundy wasn't insane. He was as sane as bread. He was just evil.

As evil as they come, though he may now have competition.

 

[uscitizen]

But was he BORN that way ? Could he have prevented his mind from snapping ?

Kinda like The Bush supporter defense?

but Judge ,I was born with a right wing brain.

The mental illness is found in those of you with severe Bush Derangement Syndrome.

the derangement part is about those who supported Bush.
there was nothing deranged about seeing Bush for what he was. As many republicans later admitted.
A spendthrift non fiscal conservative who was wrong about Iraq.

 

[Liability]

Kinda like The Bush supporter defense?

but Judge ,I was born with a right wing brain.

The mental illness is found in those of you with severe Bush Derangement Syndrome.

the derangement part is about those who supported Bush.
there was nothing deranged about seeing Bush for what he was. As many republicans later admitted.
A spendthrift non fiscal conservative who was wrong about Iraq.

No no. The Bush Derangement Syndrome from which you suffer is "the" derangement.

And the stupid shit you frequently spew (like the post of yours which I have just finished quoting) is a product of your mental illness.

 

[uscitizen]

The mental illness is found in those of you with severe Bush Derangement Syndrome.

the derangement part is about those who supported Bush.
there was nothing deranged about seeing Bush for what he was. As many republicans later admitted.
A spendthrift non fiscal conservative who was wrong about Iraq.

No no. The Bush Derangement Syndrome from which you suffer is "the" derangement.

And the stupid shit you frequently spew (like the post of yours which I have just finished quoting) is a product of your mental illness.

So then you think that all republicans still think Bush was a fiscal conservative and correct about Iraq?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Many try to "shrink out" & fail. His meticulous planning indicates a high degree of mental functioning. Bundy tried to shrink out repeatedly, but the care he used in removing fingerprints was used as evidence he had capacity.

That's because Bundy wasn't insane. He was as sane as bread. He was just evil.

As evil as they come, though he may now have competition.

Oh, there are lots of other people in history who can compete with Bundy for sheer evil, but I don't think this loser is in the running.