All that running is gay

[Kalam]

False Allah is the word for the god in Arabic the word for god in Arabic is ilah

This is misleading. Ilah ( اله ) simply means "deity"; it doesn't refer to any specific being. "God" is Allah ( الله‎ ), a contraction of al-ilah -- the noun ilah prefixed by the definite article al ( ال ).

Hence the use of "Allah" in Arabic translations of the Bible:

فِي الْبَدْءِ خَلَقَ اللهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ

Fi 'l-badi' khalaqa Allahu as-Samaawaat wa 'l-Ard

("In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" - Gen. 1:1)

​

Note that the forum software renders Arabic script improperly as individual, unconnected letters in their isolated forms.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

False Allah is the word for the god in Arabic the word for god in Arabic is ilah

This is misleading. Ilah ( اله ) simply means "deity"; it doesn't refer to any specific being. "God" is Allah ( الله‎ ), a contraction of al-ilah -- the noun ilah prefixed by the definite article al ( ال ).

There was nothing misleading about my post.
Ilah means god in arabic.
allah is the arabic word for " the god" or as you put it ,a contraction of the god and the definitive article(the). and god.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Nothing is unequivocal .

Like the abrogation of one Quranic verse by another?

It is abundantly evident that naskh occurs between separate scriptures rather than between them, though belief in internal naskh is still somewhat widespread and certainly doesn't constitute kufr.

So what brought about this 180 degree shift in your prior position.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1567051-post167.html

 

[Kalam]

Like the abrogation of one Quranic verse by another?

It is abundantly evident that naskh occurs between separate scriptures rather than between them, though belief in internal naskh is still somewhat widespread and certainly doesn't constitute kufr.

So what brought about this 180 degree shift in your prior position.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1567051-post167.html

Do explain how this is a "180 degree shift."

 

[Kalam]

There was nothing misleading about my post.

You said that he was incorrect. He wasn't. God (proper) is "Allah."

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

There was nothing misleading about my post.

You said that he was incorrect. He wasn't. God (proper) is "Allah."

Let's set the record straight!

Allah: Just means God in Arabic, the same God we all worship.

Ilah is the arabic word for" god.'
Allah is the word for "the god."
You already stated this but you substituted the word deity in your definition of ilah.
It was not misleading you are just insisting on something that isn't true, not for the first time.

The fact that Islam states Jews and Christians are disbelievers who must be fought until they submit to Islam is also over looked by the lying author .

The Order to fight People of the Scriptures until They give the Jizyah
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

It is abundantly evident that naskh occurs between separate scriptures rather than between them, though belief in internal naskh is still somewhat widespread and certainly doesn't constitute kufr.

So what brought about this 180 degree shift in your prior position.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1567051-post167.html

Do explain how this is a "180 degree shift."

false doctrines such as abrogation

I'm not sure how any person who believes that the Qur'an was imperfect and required abrogation can consider himself or herself a Muslim.

though belief in internal naskh is still somewhat widespread and certainly doesn't constitute kufr.

Let those playing along at home decide .

 

[Kalam]

Allah: Just means God in Arabic, the same God we all worship.

Why, then, did you you say that he was "incorrect"?

The fact that Islam states Jews and Christians are disbelievers who must be fought until they submit to Islam is also over looked by the lying author .

...

Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers

Clearly, you're a more qualified judge of what "Islam states" than myself or more eminent Muslims such as Shaykh Qaradawi.

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, they have their reward with their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. - 2:62

And of the People of the Book there are those who believe in Allah and that which has been revealed to you and that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah -- they take not a small price for the messages of Allah. These it is that have their reward with their Lord. Surely Allah is Swift to take account! - 3:199​

And, of course, there is no Qur'anic justification for aggressive warfare waged against unbelievers simply because they disbelieve.

O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty. And keep your duty to Allah. Surely Allah is Aware of what you do. - 5:8

And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and be cautious. But if you turn back then know that the duty of Our Messenger is only a clear deliverance of the message. - 5:92

The duty of the Messenger is only to deliver. And Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide. - 5:99​

You are the only liar in this discussion, I'm afraid.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The writings of medieval mufassiruun do not abrogate the clear commandments of the Qur'an. You would do well to learn this.

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

Jizyah was to be paid solely to cover the cost of national defense in return for draft exemption. Interpretation of the concept beyond that involves bid'ah; there is no Qur'anic justification for causing unnecessary "disgrace" in extraction of the jizyah.

"No-one of the people of dhimma should be beaten in order to exact payment of the jizya, nor made to stand in the hot sun, nor should hateful things inflicted upon their bodies, or anything of that sort... Rather they should be treated with leniency."

- Abu Yusuf, Chief Justice (Qadhi al-Qudhaat) under Caliph Harun al-Rashid (d. 809 CE)​

 

[Kalam]

false doctrines such as abrogation

I'm not sure how any person who believes that the Qur'an was imperfect and required abrogation can consider himself or herself a Muslim.

though belief in internal naskh is still somewhat widespread and certainly doesn't constitute kufr.

Let those playing along at home decide .

I stand by all of these statements. Abrogation is a false doctrine and I can only wonder how a person who claims to adhere to Islam can consider the Qur'an imperfect. Yet, this error does not constitute kufr. No person should be declared a kaafir unless he himself declares disbelief in Islam. The Taliban, for example, are pieces of trash who have utterly butchered the meaning of Islam to suit their political needs; they are still Muslims, though. They still profess faith in Islam.

Each post of yours is slightly more desperate and pitiful than the one that precedes it.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers

Clearly, you're a more qualified judge of what "Islam states" than myself or more eminent Muslims such as Shaykh Qaradawi.

Qualified enough to bring what is the most widely accepted exogenous of the Quran to the table.
Im not offering some unknown scripture here.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir is a staple for helping people who want to know understand Islam
Islam Way
islamway.com
A collection of articles and audio lectures on Muslim belief and practice, with Quran recitations. [Arabic and English]I didnt see any english
Rank: 1,973 Category: World > Arabic Keywords: islam, islam way, طريق الاسلام, رمضان كريم, محمد حسانFrom the site: islamway.com is one of the top 10,000 sites in the world and is in the Guidance_Resources category

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, they have their reward with their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. - 2:62​

Abrogated

And, of course, there is no Qur'anic justification for aggressive warfare waged against unbelievers simply because they disbelieve.

Sure there is ,
Nothing could be more just since disbelief is a denial of the right of allah to be worshiped

Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The writings of medieval mufassiruun do not abrogate the clear commandments of the Qur'an. You would do well to learn this.

No it brings it into sharp resolve


[/QUOTE]
From Jscotts posts It is text book taqqiya as you well know

Let's set the record straight!

Allah: Just means God in Arabic, the same God we all worship.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

Jizyah was to be paid solely to cover the cost of national defense in return for draft exemption. Interpretation of the concept beyond that involves bid'ah; there is no Qur'anic justification for causing unnecessary "disgrace" in extraction of the jizyah.

"No-one of the people of dhimma should be beaten in order to exact payment of the jizya, nor made to stand in the hot sun, nor should hateful things inflicted upon their bodies, or anything of that sort... Rather they should be treated with leniency."

- Abu Yusuf, Chief Justice (Qadhi al-Qudhaat) under Caliph Harun al-Rashid (d. 809 CE)​

Zamakhshari, Abu al-Qasim Mahmud ibn Umar
(d. 1144 )

Mutazili theologian, Arabic philologist, and Quran exegete of Persian origin. His Quran commentary, Al-kashshaf an haqaiq al-tanzil, exhibits his Mutazili dogmas with little attention to tradition and elaborates on lexical, grammatical, and rhetorical elements while interpreting the Quran and highlighting its miraculous inimitability. His Al-mufassal is an exhaustive exposition of Arabic grammar, and his Asas al-balagha is a dictionary of Arabic. His literary works include Maqamat, containing moralizing discourses; his diwan of poems; and Al-mustaqsa fi-l-amthal, a popular collection of proverbs.

Zamakhshari, Abu al-Qasim Mahmud ibn Umar - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

Sometimes, the requirements for jizyah could be interpreted severely. In Tafsir al-kashshaf, the Mutazilah exegete al-Zamakhshari (d. 1144) assumes that the intent of the Quranic commandment was to highlight the subordinate status of the dhimmi in Muslim society. Therefore, the jizyah should be exacted as a form of humiliation. The non-Muslim should come to pay the tax walking, not riding. When he pays, he is made to stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector should seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say, “Pay the jizyah!”, cuffing him on the back of the head once the tax has been paid. A similarly hard line is taken by the modern commentator and political activist Sayyid Qutb (d. 1966) in his widely read commentary, Fi ?ilal al-Qur?an. This prominent ideologist of the Muslim Brotherhood is defiantly triumphalist, claiming that jizyah amounts to a punishment for polytheism (especially for Christians) and is required before peaceful relations can be established between Muslims and the “People of the Book.” Seeing shari?ah (the divine law) as a sort of positive law, Qu?b intimates that jizyah is a recompense or protection, not from military service or external enemies, but from jihad. If it is not paid as part of a peace agreement, the Islamic state owes no obligation to non-Muslims, whether at home or abroad.

Log In - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Abrogation is a false doctrine

You have tried and shown you cant prove that.

 

[Kalam]

Qualified enough to bring what is the most widely accepted exogenous

Wrong word.

of the Quran to the table.

Please post relevant evidence (ie: a poll of the Muslim community or some similar data) indicating that Ibn Kathir's tafsir is "the most widely accepted exogenous [sic]."

Im not offering some unknown scripture here.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir is a staple for helping people who want to know understand Islam

Ibn Kathir's tafsir is extremely useful to those who wish to understand the beliefs of Ibn Kathir. For understanding Islam, I recommend the Qur'an, unsullied by the bid'ah and misinterpretations of the commentators you seem to favor.

Islam Way
islamway.com
A collection of articles and audio lectures on Muslim belief and practice, with Quran recitations. [Arabic and English]I didnt see any english
Rank: 1,973 Category: World > Arabic Keywords: islam, islam way, طريق الاسلام, رمضان كريم, محمد حسانFrom the site: islamway.com is one of the top 10,000 sites in the world and is in the Guidance_Resources category

What is this? Are you suggesting that the connection of the word "tafsir" (which, of course, refers to all Qur'anic exegeses) to a seemingly popular internet site confirms that Ibn Kathir's tafsir is revered by the entire Muslim world?

Abrogated

That's one way of ignoring factual information.

Keep in mind that the passage in question was Madinan in origin. If this verse was abrogated, please specify its abrogator and provide us with the opinion of at least one notable scholar who arrived at the same conclusion.

Sure there is ,
Nothing could be more just since disbelief is a denial of the right of allah to be worshiped

Come up with that on your own?

The suggestion that Allah (SWT) is a "rights"-bearing entity that can be wronged or mistreated by humans in ludicrous, as that would imply that humans hold some sort of power over Allah (SWT.) Disbelief per se is injurious to nobody and nothing apart from the disbeliever himself.

Your choice to ignore relevant scripture has been noted. The message is consistent throughout the book, up to its final suwar (incl. 5, 9.) Warfare is permitted as a means of self-defense and just requital:

Will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attacked you first? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right than you should fear Him, if you are believers. - 9:13​

The only duty of a Muslim in spreading Islam is the delivery of its message.

From Jscotts posts It is text book taqqiya as you well know

Accusations of dishonesty coming from you are akin to accusations of pederasty coming from the late Mr. Jackson.

 

[Kalam]

Sometimes, the requirements for jizyah could be interpreted severely. In Tafsir al-kashshaf, the Mutazilah exegete al-Zamakhshari (d. 1144) assumes

Therein lies the issue. Baseless assumption is not a legitimate form of interpretation. Al-Zamakhshari by no means possessed the Qur'anic knowledge or Islamic jurisprudential ability of Abu Yusuf. Needless to say, his opinion on that matter should be dismissed in favor of a Qur'anically valid interpretation such as Abu Yusuf's.

 

[Kalam]

Abrogation is a false doctrine

You have tried and shown you cant prove that.

I have shown it to be true on a number of occasions; you cling to falsities because you realize that acknowledging the truth would deprive your hilariously pathetic Islamophobia of a rational basis. I'm sure that you're not even familiar with the development of the theory of internal naskh. As time has passed and knowledge has increased, a progressively fewer number of verses have been regarded as "abrogated." During the Medieval period, for example, varying numbers of passages were thought to be affected by internal abrogation - Imam Jalaluddin Al-Suyuti eventually demonstrated that no more than 21 verses could have been abrogated.

The possibly abrogated verses -- as recognized by Suyuti -- are as follows:

• 2:180 (by 2:181)
• 2:184 (by 2:185)
• 2:183 (by 2:187)
• 2:217 (by 9:36)
• 2:240 (by 2:234)
• 2:284 (by 2:286)
• 3:102 (by 64:16)
• 4:33 (by 8:75)
• 4:8
• 4:15
• 5:2
• 5:42 (by 5:49)
• 5:106 (by 65:2)
• 8:65 (by 8:66)
• 9:41 (by 24:61, 9:91, and 9:122)
• 24:3 (by 24:32)
• 24:58
• 33:52 (by 33:33)
• 58:12 (by 58:13)
• 60:11
• 73:2

Suyuti's discussion of Naskh can be found in full here (for some reason, it's hosted on an Ahmadi website):
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/images_blog/nasikhmansukh.pdf

You will notice that 2:256 (Let there be no compulsion in religion...) and similar passages that I cite were not included by Suyuti in his list of abrogated verses.

What's more, renowned Indian scholar Shah Wahiullah (d. 1762) demonstrated in Al Faudhul Kabir fi Usoolut Tafsir that all but five of Suyuti's verses were unaffected by abrogation. We have now reduced this number to zero, as it's plainly obvious that the passages that supposedly explain internal naskh actually describe a form of naskh that involves the Qur'an taking precedence over previous scriptures. Like Maulana Muhammad Ali, eminent Sunni leader Maulana Maududi confirmed that the references were to the Qur'anic abrogation of Halakha. Excerpted from his tafsir, Tafhim al-Qur'an (regarding 2:106) -

Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

This is the answer to an objection which the Jews raised to create doubts in the minds of the Muslims. They argued this: "The Qur'an says that the former Scriptures had been sent down by Allah and that it had as well. If this is so, why does the Qur'an give commands that differ from those contained in the former Books? How can the same God give different commands at different times?" Besides, they said, "The Qur'an asserts that the Jews and the Christians have forgotten a part of the teachings sent down to them. How is it possible that the teachings of Allah could be obliterated from memory?" They did not raise these objections for the sake of arriving at the truth, but for the sake of creating mischief. Allah answers their objections thus: "I am the Sovereign and My powers are unlimited. I can repeal any order of Mine or allow it to be forgotten, but I substitute for it something that serves the same purpose better or at least equally well."​

 

[Mr.Fitnah]