Agree or Disagree?

[Dick Tuck]

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship… I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT

 

[The T]

Our government was not founded on any religion, but allowed for the freedom to openly worship and incorporate God into daily living as people chose.

Freewill bound by LAW.

 

[Listening]

As is usuallly the case in such shallow questions, we really don't know what we are agreeing or disagreeing with.

What does it mean to be "founded upon" ?

Does it mean that the FF intended that the principles and tenents of the "Christian Religion" be incorporated into and enforced in the Constitution ?

Or does it mean that the Christian religion was considered, front and center, as the Constitution was written ?

What I am very sure of is that:

The founders had a great desire not to see a national religion forced upon the American people and thus made sure that it was quite clear that the federal government was to make no laws regarding the establishment of religion. That was the federal government. Jefferson, in his oft-quoted letter (which many mistakenly believe is the langugue of the Constition) describes a wall of separation. Clearly, the FF did not want any religion to have the power to enforce moral codes or policy preferences through elected officials and enforce them through the legal system.

At the same time, it is quite clear that most of the founders had a strong faith in God and in man and believed that cooperative living would only be had by people living their conciences.

As I read the "intellectual" in-breds who squawk about how the Founders were not Christians...I have to laugh. It is quite clear they were. And the very things they cherrished in their religion, tolerance, acceptance, forgivness, patience, etc. etc. are written in to a document they felt would allow the athiest and Christian alike to co-existe....from any compulsion by the government to belong to or support something they did not believe.

That did not stop the states from behaving differently. And, in fact, several states did engage in some form of support for either a particular religion or the Christian religion in general. This was never challenged (to the best of my knowledge) but disappeared on it's own.

Recent challenges by local entities to do things like display the ten commandments have been struck down under the perversion we call "incorporation", a doctrine the SCOTUS pulleld out of it's ass via the ambiguously written 14th amendment.

Back to my point.

The United States of America does was not created to enforce, nor was it contemplated it would ever enforce a state sponsored a religion. In that sense, the U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation.

BTW: It should be noted that John Adams comments are meaningless on this point. It is a delcaration. It does not bind the U.S. to anything. We can be as Christian as we chose to be.

At that same time, it is also clear that the U.S. was founded upon personal principles that are center to the teaching of Christ. To the exent that the two are linked, the U.S. could very easinly be considered to be founded upon the Christian Religion.

I voted for "other" simply because the question is not clear enough as to what it is asking.

 

[Staidhup]

In God we trust has no direct reference to what God, or by what religious order. The moral fabric of the constitutional founders was based on a profound belief in a higher order "God". This same belief system can be seen in our legal code, laws, and judicial system. There is no escaping the fact that the Christian belief system was the dominating moral beacon of the country during this period. The separation of church and state insured all americans were granted the freedom to exercise whatever religion they wished and set the ground work for a moral society based on the equal rights of man.

 

[healthmyths]

FACTS are the largest christian denominations in the USA are as follows:
Total membership in top 25 churches: 145,691,446
The population of American adherents of Judaism was estimated to be approximately 5,128,000
Bagby estimates there are 2.6 million "mosque participants" — people who have attended prayers for Eid (a major holy day) or Friday prayers or were considered participants by the mosque leader survey.
FACTS...

 

[The T]

In God we trust has no direct reference to what God, or by what religious order. The moral fabric of the constitutional founders was based on a profound belief in a higher order "God". This same belief system can be seen in our legal code, laws, and judicial system. There is no escaping the fact that the Christian belief system was the dominating moral beacon of the country during this period. The separation of church and state insured all americans were granted the freedom to exercise whatever religion they wished and set the ground work for a moral society based on the equal rights of man.

All part of thier idea of liberty...free to worship...or not...and to not step on the beliefs of others through the power of Government.

 

[JimBowie1958]

'Founded upon' in context of the language at the time was a reference to the idea that the government ruled the people due to God having appointed the king and his rule was justified as 'Divine Right' of kings. The ranking Bishop placing the crown on the kings was symbolic of this annointing by God of the king to rule. The kings claim to rule was only as strong as the legitimacy of the religion of the bishop that crowned him king. So the religion in question was a state religion and to belong to any other was grounds for suspicion of treason and prevented one from serving in the government.

Our government was not founded on Divine right conveyed by a bishops hand. The right of our government to govern comes from the will of the people and their consent for that governance. Our government does not rule us, it SERVES us and the Voice of the People determines the breadth and scope of that governance.

But from the time of its inception til the middle 20th century, we have always acknowledged that God rules and we survive at His pleasure. The Christian philosophers Locke and Adam Smith had much grounding in the precepts and principle of Christian theology and they heavily influenced our Founding Fathers.

So our government was founded on Christian principle as they best understood it, though not formally on the word of a bishop.

 

[Contumacious]

I agree in part. I think his treaty provision went too far when it said "in NO sense."

Given the First Amendment, I agree that it is not founded AS a Christian nation -- or as a Jewish Nation -- or as a Deist Nation -- or as a Muslim Nation -- etc. Freedom of Religion means that no one religion is dominant or favored.

On the other hand, there IS a sense in which the founding of the Republic was premised -- at least in part -- upon our Judeo-Christian roots.

Reeeeeeeeeally?

So do our "Judeo-Christian" roots support incarcerating our alien friends at the Krome Federal Detention Center because they look and talk funny?

.

 

[The T]

'Founded upon' in context of the language at the time was a reference to the idea that the government ruled the people due to God having appointed the king and his rule was justified as 'Divine Right' of kings. The ranking Bishop placing the crown on the kings was symbolic of this annointing by God of the king to rule. The kings claim to rule was only as strong as the legitimacy of the religion of the bishop that crowned him king. So the religion in question was a state religion and to belong to any other was grounds for suspicion of treason and prevented one from serving in the government.

Our government was not founded on Divine right conveyed by a bishops hand. The right of our government to govern comes from the will of the people and their consent for that governance. Our government does not rule us, it SERVES us and the Voice of the People determines the breadth and scope of that governance.

But from the time of its inception til the middle 20th century, we have always acknowledged that God rules and we survive at His pleasure. The Christian philosophers Locke and Adam Smith had much grounding in the precepts and principle of Christian theology and they heavily influenced our Founding Fathers.

So our government was founded on Christian principle as they best understood it, though not formally on the word of a bishop.

But rather on the word of God himself. Freewill each human born on this planet has.

Our system is still unique in the affairs of mankind...and self-determination.

 

[paulitician]

All of our Founding Fathers were devout Christians. People will have to decide for themselves what to make of that.

 

[Ernie S.]

That particular clause in the treaty was meant to appease the Muslims with whom the treaty dealt. It was meant as an assurance to them that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced.

Now, I do agree that one of the primary concerns of the Founding Fathers was religious freedom, not the advancement of a state religion. I believe they felt that individuals, not the government, would define religious faith and practice in the United States.

So I guess my answer would be, based on your use of the Treaty of Tripoli to make the argument... I disagree.

But I also agree...

I believe it was in part a dig at the peoples it dealt with that all tended to be theocratic.

 

[The T]

That particular clause in the treaty was meant to appease the Muslims with whom the treaty dealt. It was meant as an assurance to them that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced.

Now, I do agree that one of the primary concerns of the Founding Fathers was religious freedom, not the advancement of a state religion. I believe they felt that individuals, not the government, would define religious faith and practice in the United States.

So I guess my answer would be, based on your use of the Treaty of Tripoli to make the argument... I disagree.

But I also agree...

I believe it was in part a dig at the peoples it dealt with that all tended to be theocratic.

how many times have the Statists tried to warn if Republicans or Conservatives got into power WE would become a Theocracy based upon the Founders?

Nevermind the real Theocracies as IRAN...

IF the Foundershad intended it? It would have happened by now...don't you think so?

 

[BDBoop]

All of our Founding Fathers were devout Christians. People will have to decide for themselves what to make of that.

No they were not.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

That the United States was not founded as a ‘Christian Nation’ is evident when one reviews the Constitution and its case law:

The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.

Everson v. Board of Education (1947)

In Torcaso v. Watkins (1961), the Court struck down a Maryland statute requiring state office holders to ‘believe in a god’:

We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person "to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers, and neither can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs.

It is clear, therefore, that not only did the Framers not intend the United States to be a ‘Christian Nation,’ but that the Federal government, state governments, and local jurisdictions must maintain absolute religious neutrality, including the right of Americans to be free from faith, and not believe in a deity at all.

Moreover, this mandate of the Constitution neither violates the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, nor does it disallow ‘persons of faith’ a ‘voice in the public square.’ One is free to practice or exhibit his faith in any venue, public or private, provided such practice is done in the context of proscribed law, and is not sanctioned or codified by the state.

 

[The T]

That the United States was not founded as a ‘Christian Nation’ is evident when one reviews the Constitution and its case law:

The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.

Everson v. Board of Education (1947)

In Torcaso v. Watkins (1961), the Court struck down a Maryland statute requiring state office holders to ‘believe in a god’:

We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person "to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers, and neither can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs.

It is clear, therefore, that not only did the Framers not intend the United States to be a ‘Christian Nation,’ but that the Federal government, state governments, and local jurisdictions must maintain absolute religious neutrality, including the right of Americans to be free from faith, and not believe in a deity at all.

Moreover, this mandate of the Constitution neither violates the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, nor does it disallow ‘persons of faith’ a ‘voice in the public square.’ One is free to practice or exhibit his faith in any venue, public or private, provided such practice is done in the context of proscribed law, and is not sanctioned or codified by the state.

And nor by those decisions did they ADVOCATE the destruction...the attacks upon Religion by Government either.

 

[Listening]

In Torcaso v. Watkins (1961), the Court struck down a Maryland statute requiring state office holders to ‘believe in a god’:

We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person "to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers, and neither can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs.

It is clear, therefore, that not only did the Framers not intend the United States to be a ‘Christian Nation,’ but that the Federal government, state governments, and local jurisdictions must maintain absolute religious neutrality, including the right of Americans to be free from faith, and not believe in a deity at all.

Moreover, this mandate of the Constitution neither violates the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, nor does it disallow ‘persons of faith’ a ‘voice in the public square.’ One is free to practice or exhibit his faith in any venue, public or private, provided such practice is done in the context of proscribed law, and is not sanctioned or codified by the state.

Barf.....

Nothing is clear except that the Federal SCOTUS overstepped it's bounds again.

States had state supported religion or religions for almost 40 years after the New Constitution was ratified and those were never challenged.

They exited existence by the choice of the people.

Even modern day justices have hinted that the Constitution allows for state soveriegnty in this area.

As someone once said (and the historical context is key)...people didn't come to American for the right to practice religion...they came to American for the right to practice their religion.

 

[Listening]

All of our Founding Fathers were devout Christians. People will have to decide for themselves what to make of that.

No they were not.

Four whole words.

Wow...you're on a roll.

Smokin hot !!!

 

[The T]

In Torcaso v. Watkins (1961), the Court struck down a Maryland statute requiring state office holders to ‘believe in a god’:

We repeat and again reaffirm that neither a State nor the Federal Government can constitutionally force a person "to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion." Neither can constitutionally pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers, and neither can aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs.

It is clear, therefore, that not only did the Framers not intend the United States to be a ‘Christian Nation,’ but that the Federal government, state governments, and local jurisdictions must maintain absolute religious neutrality, including the right of Americans to be free from faith, and not believe in a deity at all.

Moreover, this mandate of the Constitution neither violates the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, nor does it disallow ‘persons of faith’ a ‘voice in the public square.’ One is free to practice or exhibit his faith in any venue, public or private, provided such practice is done in the context of proscribed law, and is not sanctioned or codified by the state.

Barf.....

Nothing is clear except that the Federal SCOTUS overstepped it's bounds again.

States had state supported religion or religions for almost 40 years after the New Constitution was ratified and those were never challenged.

They exited existence by the choice of the people.

Even modern day justices have hinted that the Constitution allows for state soveriegnty in this area.

As someone once said (and the historical context is key)...people didn't come to American for the right to practice religion...they came to American for the right to practice their religion.

Outta REP...

 

[Decus]

Your question is poorly phrased but if it is read to understand whether the country was founded on a spiritual and moral foundation as guided by the predominant religious convictions of the colonists, then the answer is an unequivocal – yes.

In addition to the other ambitions the settlers brought to the establishment of Colonial America, a “melting pot” of cults had to be created. The vast majority of the colonists were religious, and there is no credible research which suggests otherwise. The early dominance of the Puritans in New England was quickly challenged with new arrivals and as the colonies expanded. These other “Christian” denominations included Catholics, Protestants, Anglicans, Baptists, Quakers, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc.... many of whom had been in conflict at one time or another.

There were numerous examples of disagreement and mistrust between the faiths in the years leading up to the Constitution. For example; because of continuing problems between the faiths, Maryland passed an Act in the mid-1600s to try and prevent one denomination from bullying the others. It was called the Maryland Toleration Act. Although this didn't last long, this and other such efforts did set the stage for the First Amendment of the Constitution (the fact that religious tolerance was drafted as the first amendment underlines the importance it held for the “Christian” electorate).

The debate over whether the founders were Christian tends to gloss over the fact that most were Christian or spiritual, believing in one God. Deists like Jefferson didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus but wrote of the importance of the moral teachings represented by Jesus.

For whom was the Constitution written? The answer - the religious majority. Even the most cynical would have to agree, politicians need to play to their constituency. Christianity and morality were the coins of the realm.

 

[paulitician]

All of our Founding Fathers were devout Christians. People will have to decide for themselves what to make of that.

No they were not.

Yes they were. It's fact. You may not like it, but it's still fact. And spare me the tired 'Deism' sham. Heard it all before, and it's still Bullshit. They were Christians.