Affirmative Action

[Luissa]

Question: Would any of the affirmative action supporters on this board ever quit their job so a minority or someone not as qualified could have it?

I'm mostly "liberal" and here's my take on it:

It did it's job a long time ago, it's time passed, but the morons keep abusing it to ruin our country. It should have been ended a long time ago, since now corporations no longer care about what skin color, disability, gender, etc. they want profits and will hire whoever will do the job best. Those who don't are failing as we speak ... well type, and begging for government hand outs now.

I agree plus we are not doing them any favors giving them a job or giving them a place in a certain college if they are not qualified. It had it's purpose but now it does not. But the right does not like to hear that not every liberal or even minority agrees with affirmative action.

 

[Immanuel]

I agree plus we are not doing them any favors giving them a job or giving them a place in a certain college if they are not qualified. It had it's purpose but now it does not. But the right does not like to hear that not every liberal or even minority agrees with affirmative action.

Really? That is news to me. I think it is great.

I agree with you. At one time AA had its place. In some respects it still does. Racism isn't defeated and never will be. There is still the "good ole boy" network. But, AA does more harm than good these days. Time to rethink how we are attempting to accomplish fairness and maybe revamp our efforts, IMHO.

Immie

 

[midcan5]

The answer here is too easy, of course not, other responsibilities supersede that decision, such as one's own family or even ourselves. The poster posing the question assumes naively that a choice exists and one choice points to an assumption that only exists in the echo chamber of their mind.

Second point. Anyone who thinks racism does not exist today, please send me all your money, boy, do I have a deal for you! I would suggest a reading the examples below, but if you are a real social scientist, do this experiment, apply somewhere through letter or call but name yourself Carson Bush / Deborah Bush and alternately Darvon Williams / Lakisha Williams. Let us know how you make out, oh, and send your money soon.

Read "look inside' and you get a taste for racism, can we call it prejudice, and my test above. This one is about Jewish names but you get the picture.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Nature-Prejudice-25th-Anniversary/dp/0201001799/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240490101&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: The Nature Of Prejudice: 25th Anniversary Edition: Gordon W. Allport: Books[/ame]

Affirmative action is still necessary, how it is implemented is difficult. Racism still exists and until we melt together a little bit more (doesn't seem to be happening today) it will probably always exist.


examples of racism from the source


does racism still exist today? | Progressive U
Why Does Racism Still Exist?
Newsvine - Does racism still exist?
AverageBro.com: Does Racism Still Exist? - An AverageBro Town Hall Discussion

 

[Amanda]

The answer here is too easy, of course not, other responsibilities supersede that decision, such as one's own family or even ourselves. The poster posing the question assumes naively that a choice exists and one choice points to an assumption that only exists in the echo chamber of their mind.

Second point. Anyone who thinks racism does not exist today, please send me all your money, boy, do I have a deal for you! I would suggest a reading the examples below, but if you are a real social scientist, do this experiment, apply somewhere through letter or call but name yourself Carson Bush / Deborah Bush and alternately Darvon Williams / Lakisha Williams. Let us know how you make out, oh, and send your money soon.

Read "look inside' and you get a taste for racism, can we call it prejudice, and my test above. This one is about Jewish names but you get the picture.

Amazon.com: The Nature Of Prejudice: 25th Anniversary Edition: Gordon W. Allport: Books

Affirmative action is still necessary, how it is implemented is difficult. Racism still exists and until we melt together a little bit more (doesn't seem to be happening today) it will probably always exist.


examples of racism from the source


does racism still exist today? | Progressive U
Why Does Racism Still Exist?
Newsvine - Does racism still exist?
AverageBro.com: Does Racism Still Exist? - An AverageBro Town Hall Discussion

I think you make a valid point, but the reality is SOME people do lose opportunity due to AA, and it ISN'T their choice. The OP is just trying to see if libs will assume the liability they oppose on others. And I think that is the point... it's hypocrisy to impose this on others if you aren't willing to take it on yourself.

 

[Red Dawn]

Question: Would any of the affirmative action supporters on this board ever quit their job so a minority or someone not as qualified could have it?

Question: Why are you asking bogus, loaded questions? Drunk on partisan kool aid?

No one has ever been forced to "quite" for a minority.

Affirmative action doesn't even apply to most jobs outside of taxpayer-funded jobs.

Quotas are illegal. No "unqualified" person has to be hired.

 

[JBeukema]

If they are equally qualified, then the minority could be picked because of the minority status.

Actually, less-qualified candidates are chosen if they're too few of a certain race, andtThere's a word for that: discrimination, usually in the form of racism. It's a violation of civil rights and the

 

[JBeukema]

That debate is likely to be very much in evidence today when the Court hears argument in Ricci v. DeStefano. The issue in Ricci was simply stated by Judge José Cabranes, dissenting from a cursory, unenlightening opinion by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. "At its core," he wrote, "this case presents a straight-forward question: May a municipal employer disregard the results of a qualifying examination, which was carefully constructed to ensure race-neutrality, on the ground that the results of that examination yielded too many qualified applicants of one race and not enough of another?"

look it up

 

[Luissa]

I agree plus we are not doing them any favors giving them a job or giving them a place in a certain college if they are not qualified. It had it's purpose but now it does not. But the right does not like to hear that not every liberal or even minority agrees with affirmative action.

Really? That is news to me. I think it is great.

I agree with you. At one time AA had its place. In some respects it still does. Racism isn't defeated and never will be. There is still the "good ole boy" network. But, AA does more harm than good these days. Time to rethink how we are attempting to accomplish fairness and maybe revamp our efforts, IMHO.

Immie

when we had a debate in my sociology class which is when my opinion changed because I was on the side against affirmative action I was the white person on my team. A black guy that was in my class along with doing some research is how I change my mind on the subject.
I think we should do more about giving minorities a better education at primary level so they can get into college on their own merits and than a job the same way. It kind of goes with the saying " Give a fish, feed them for a day! Teach them how to fish, feed them for a life time."
When I did my research I found a study about how an african american is more likely to graduate and pass the bar if they go to a state school than if they were admitted to an private/Ivy league school due to affirmative action.
My father applied for a job at the city and scored hire on than the female on the civil service along with having experience and a BA but they gave it to the female. Six months later my dad got the job!

 

[Immanuel]

I think you make a valid point, but the reality is SOME people do lose opportunity due to AA, and it ISN'T their choice. The OP is just trying to see if libs will assume the liability they oppose on others. And I think that is the point... it's hypocrisy to impose this on others if you aren't willing to take it on yourself.

But, a more valid example would be something like, "how would you feel if you had just finished the third round of interviews for the job of your dreams knowing that you were qualified and that this was a perfect job for you and you were the perfect candidate. Then to be told, 'we're sorry but we are hiring a minority person for the job because we are an EEOE.'?"

AA doesn't ask people who are employed to give up their jobs for a less qualified minority person. It asks employers to open their hiring practices to minorities who MAY be less qualified than other applicants.

Immie

 

[JBeukema]

.
I think we should do more about giving minorities a better education at primary level so they can get into college on their own merits and than a job the same way.

Are you saying that sending them to the same schools an holding them to the same standards as everyone else isn't working? It sounds like you're implying they're too stupid to learn like the other kids and need special treatment. You're trying to sound like you care, but you just sound like some compassionate and empathetic slave driver going on about the White Man's Burden

It kind of goes with the saying " Give a fish, feed them for a day! Teach them how to fish, feed them for a life time."

They can learn along with everyone else-hell they even have 'magnent' schools that use racist quotas to ensure there's a good mix

 

[Immanuel]

I think we should do more about giving minorities a better education at primary level so they can get into college on their own merits and than a job the same way. It kind of goes with the saying " Give a fish, feed them for a day! Teach them how to fish, feed them for a life time."

In a perfect world we would do a better job of educating the disadvantaged. Unfortunately this is not a perfect world. There are a lot of factors to why children in poverty don't have an equal footing with rich kids. Unfortunately it doesn't happen and it means that the poor have to work harder to succeed.

We should do all that we can to improve the education of everyone, but should we favor poor minorities over middle class children? It is the middle class who are affected more by AA than the rich. For instance, I'm middle class (no I'm not claiming having been discriminated against by AA although over the phone once, I was told in no uncertain terms that the guy wanted a woman for the job I was applying for) and I am not extremely ambitious. I am not going to be a CFO of a billion dollar corporation, but the chances are good that I could lose out on a job to someone who benefits from AA. But, Jenna Bush would never lose out to someone who benefits from AA because... well, the rich are privileged and who is going to hire some poor little kid from Harlem when they can have a Bush?

Immie

PS regarding that phone rejection... I so wanted to call back about two hours later and inform the jerk that I was with the Labor Board and let him know that he was being investigated for discrimination.

 

[Luissa]

I think we should do more about giving minorities a better education at primary level so they can get into college on their own merits and than a job the same way. It kind of goes with the saying " Give a fish, feed them for a day! Teach them how to fish, feed them for a life time."

In a perfect world we would do a better job of educating the disadvantaged. Unfortunately this is not a perfect world. There are a lot of factors to why children in poverty don't have an equal footing with rich kids. Unfortunately it doesn't happen and it means that the poor have to work harder to succeed.

We should do all that we can to improve the education of everyone, but should we favor poor minorities over middle class children? It is the middle class who are affected more by AA than the rich. For instance, I'm middle class (no I'm not claiming having been discriminated against by AA although over the phone once, I was told in no uncertain terms that the guy wanted a woman for the job I was applying for) and I am not extremely ambitious. I am not going to be a CFO of a billion dollar corporation, but the chances are good that I could lose out on a job to someone who benefits from AA. But, Jenna Bush would never lose out to someone who benefits from AA because... well, the rich are privileged and who is going to hire some poor little kid from Harlem when they can have a Bush?

Immie

PS regarding that phone rejection... I so wanted to call back about two hours later and inform the jerk that I was with the Labor Board and let him know that he was being investigated for discrimination.

I agree about the middle class! When I first went to college out of high school I couldn't get a dime because my parents made to much but not enough to pay for my brother and I to go to college, so I ended up going to community college while my brother went to a four year college since he was older. Now I am single mother I get enough to pay for college with quite a bit left over. So really what is that teaching people especially young women?
And I am not just talking about improving education for minorities either, the poor no matter what race are getting the same low budget education in this country which contributes to them just staying where they are in life. I went to a mostly middle to upper middle class high school while my ex boyfriend went to a high school only about three miles away but was in lower middle/poor neighborhood and it was alittle disturbing to see the difference in the quality of education we each recieved. My neices go to a private catholic high school which can also recieve a scholarship to attend if you cannot afford, it has a 98% graduation rate. Their high school also makes more parents get involved especially of the children who are on fare share or scholarship. It also helps that John Stockton is part of alumni for fundraising purposes. lol

 

[Luissa]

.
I think we should do more about giving minorities a better education at primary level so they can get into college on their own merits and than a job the same way.

Are you saying that sending them to the same schools an holding them to the same standards as everyone else isn't working? It sounds like you're implying they're too stupid to learn like the other kids and need special treatment. You're trying to sound like you care, but you just sound like some compassionate and empathetic slave driver going on about the White Man's Burden

It kind of goes with the saying " Give a fish, feed them for a day! Teach them how to fish, feed them for a life time."

They can learn along with everyone else-hell they even have 'magnent' schools that use racist quotas to ensure there's a good mix

why don't you read what I said slowly! I am not saying they need special treatment, they need the same treatment. Go to a school in a poor neighborhood, they are not getting the same sort of education as one would get it in a better neighborhood. And not every city has magnent schools, here you go to the school is in your district and it does not matter if it meets racial quotas. Until I was a senior I think there was about five african americans at my high school and all of them came from upper middle class families.
I also want you to point out where I go on about the white man's burden? If you refering to my father, why should a women who is less qualified than my father get the job over him?

 

[JBeukema]

the Left has been throwing money at schools for decades. Money is not the problem. the problem os the parents and the people themselves

 

[Luissa]

the Left has been throwing money at schools for decades. Money is not the problem. the problem os the parents and the people themselves

How about No Child left behind? What a joke?
And I don't think money is the only solution. Fundraising yes and getting parents involved and holding them accountable.

 

[JBeukema]

the Left has been throwing money at schools for decades. Money is not the problem. the problem os the parents and the people themselves

How about No Child left behind? What a joke?.

Just like head start. By the time a child passes the 3rd grade, there are no differences between those who went to head start and those who did not- even when the two children, when one went to head start and the other didn't are of the same age, sex, race, social caste, and 'intellect'

head start and nclb achieve nothing except paying for socialized daycare and making people feel good

 

[Iriemon]

Question: Would any of the affirmative action supporters on this board ever quit their job so a minority or someone not as qualified could have it?

No.

 

[Luissa]

the Left has been throwing money at schools for decades. Money is not the problem. the problem os the parents and the people themselves

How about No Child left behind? What a joke?.

Just like head start. By the time a child passes the 3rd grade, there are no differences between those who went to head start and those who did not- even when the two children, when one went to head start and the other didn't are of the same age, sex, race, social caste, and 'intellect'

head start and nclb achieve nothing except paying for socialized daycare and making people feel good

This is why I think the most important thing is for parents to be involved at school and at home and the schools should encourage this. You go to private school and they pretty much make parents be involved some how. My father worked and even traveled out of town at certain points while I was in school but he was on the booster's club, volunteered at my sports fundraisers, and was on the grad night commitee so no one has excuses why they can't be involved. Of course most do not have to do all what my dad did, my father has just been apart of groups like Kiwanis's most of his life and enjoys being involved. Anyways off topic.
My point is money isn't the only solution and even if you don't have children you should be involved my dad joined the Key Club which is Kiwanis in college long before he had children of his own.

 

[JBeukema]

This is why I think the most important thing is for parents to be involved at school and at home and the schools should encourage this.

Agreed

 

[Luissa]

This is why I think the most important thing is for parents to be involved at school and at home and the schools should encourage this.

Agreed

I think it is fitting that the ad for this page is The Boys and Girl's Club! One of my first memories is taking gymnastics there. You see these successful people black or white that grew up in the inner cities and almost all of them used to go to the Boy's and Girl's Club.