Affirmative Action Some More

[OCA]

Before affirmative action and anti discrimination laws which are not that far off from each other, name me some, well lets take the two biggest minorities Blacks and Hispanics, millionaires from those two groups. Remember that this period is generally considered anything before the civil rights act of the mid 60's.

You will find that minorities could not get jobs or open businesses to create any semblance of wealth because of discrimination which brought about affirmative action.

 

[5stringJeff]

I don't think anyone would argue against the existence of anti-discrimination laws. I think many of us would argue against preferantial treatment of any race, under the guise of AA or otherwise.

And Aquarian, your post is right on. AA was a useful program whose time has come and gone. It is time to level the playing field for all.

 

[OCA]

Originally posted by Aquarian
as I said earlier, I'm pretty sure that AA is at or near the end of it's usefullness. But to argue that it was never necessary is beyond the pale. Most of us have not had to live thru the era when blacks were pushed to the back of the bus (which oddly is where I prefer to sit), where they could not use the same water fountains, bathrooms, doorways, schools, etc. that whites did. The educational and employment opportunities for blacks back in those days would never have allowed them a chance of participating equally in society.

Today, the vast majority (IMO) of schools and businesses would not discriminate with or without legal reasons. There would certainly be some that would, as there are some that do even with the laws we have and that number would most likely be larger without these laws. But business principals would correct these institutions in due course I think, and the alternative avenues that did not discriminate would reap the benefits in the mean time of catering to a wider audience and being able to draw from a wider pool of talent.

Since I like analogies, our past treatment of blacks can be likened to breaking both of someone's legs and telling them they are free to walk. eventually we gave them crutches (AA) which helped but the time has come (or is very close, I don't feel I have the appropriate knowledge base to decide this precisely) for them to throw away the crutches and learn to walk on their own.

So what do we tell the ones that do get shafted since you do conceded that if the laws were abolished now the discrimination would increase, do we say "oh well, it had to happen to somebody, better luck next time". We can't do it now, we are at least two generations away I believe.

 

[_dmp_]

 

[DKSuddeth]

OCA, you might be misinterpreting some of the argument.

As jeff said, AA is a law whose time was necessary but isn't any longer. A majority of america has gotten over its prejudices when it concerns other races. On top of that, we have laws currently in existence that deal with discriminatory behavior and those, when enforced judiciously, are quite capable of stopping discrimination based on race, gender, religion, and most forms of sexual orientation.

 

[NewGuy]

You will find that minorities could not get jobs or open businesses to create any semblance of wealth because of discrimination which brought about affirmative action.

Again, discrimination is a completely different issue. -It is one of basic behavior which, when excercised in any real fashion is unconstitutional, and by default, illegal.

AA is something to create a FAVORED playing field in favor of minorities while ignoring talent or qualification as the primary prerequisite. -Again, illegal.

Nonetheless, the people crying foul who WANT AA are additionally being incredibly shortsighted and lazy.

How many of these individuals go out and start a business?

News flash:

When starting and running a business, the only time skin color matters is when you run a tanning salon. -or if a bunch of racists boycott the operation. If that happens, the issue will be a minor one -and fading unless it grows large, in which case they would be harrassing and therefore breaking the law.

 

[Aquarian]

Originally posted by OCA
So what do we tell the ones that do get shafted since you do conceded that if the laws were abolished now the discrimination would increase, do we say "oh well, it had to happen to somebody, better luck next time". We can't do it now, we are at least two generations away I believe.

It may be that another generation or two is needed. I think that's a bit much myself, but I didn't specify a time. That is for folks with more data to decide. I do think that its detriments will outweigh its benefits at some point and that the impact of its detriments is already growing to a point where the idea bears reviewing.

as to who gets shafted, it's possible that none will if I'm correct about the balance of colorblind institutions to discriminatory ones. For instance, if UGA decides it don't want no blacks, georgia state, georgia tech, moorehouse, spellman will pick up the slack. Same for jobs only moreso, as businesses that hire blacks and whites fairly will have that as a public relations feather to stick in their pocket while ones that discriminate will bear the scarlet letter for their actions. But as always, I could be very very wrong...

ps. thanks jeff
pss. great pic dmp, disgusting but funny and appropos. hope you don't mind I saved it for future use.

 

[OCA]

I see your guys's points and they are all very valid. I guess you have more faith in the citizens of America than I do. I guess I must be a pessimist.

 

[NewGuy]

I see your guys's points and they are all very valid. I guess you have more faith in the citizens of America than I do. I guess I must be a pessimist.

Actually, I have NO faith in the citizenry. -UNLESS PROPERLY EDUCATED.

The problem is that they won't be educated until people like us who have voices teach the sheep and amputate the 27" sewer pipe in the living room.

Until then, it is a constant educational process wherever we can find someone with half an open mind. Let's face it, NOTHING will change for the better anywhere or anytime in the US if an informed majority citizenry isn't behined it. -unless there is another revolution.

 

[Aquarian]

Originally posted by OCA
I see your guys's points and they are all very valid. I guess you have more faith in the citizens of America than I do. I guess I must be a pessimist.

optimists see the glass half full.
pessimists see it half empty.
an engineer will tell you it's at 50% capacity.

hope I qualify as an engineer more often than not, with enough pessimism to keep me from making mistakes and enough optimism to keep me happy

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by NewGuy




Actually, I have NO faith in the citizenry. -UNLESS PROPERLY EDUCATED.

The problem is that they won't be educated until people like us who have voices teach the sheep and amputate the 27" sewer pipe in the living room.

Until then, it is a constant educational process wherever we can find someone with half an open mind. Let's face it, NOTHING will change for the better anywhere or anytime in the US if an informed majority citizenry isn't behined it. -unless there is another revolution.

What kind of revolution?

 

[NewGuy]

What kind of revolution?

Well, now THERE is a leading question. Sorry, I will not agree nor disagree with the implication.

NOTHING will change for the better anywhere or anytime in the US if an informed majority citizenry isn't behined it. -unless there is another revolution.

This statement cleary referenced the one that created our Constitution which brought our citizenry under fair, and represented instead of tyrranical rule.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Sounds like you mean another American-Style revolution of freedom. That's something I can get behind.

 

[NewGuy]

 

[Big D]

I wonder why Asians are not able to participate in affirmitive action programs?

Blacks were aloud to vote years before Asians were able to.

 

[NewGuy]

I wonder why Asians are not able to participate in affirmitive action programs?

Blacks were aloud to vote years before Asians were able to.

When I applied for a city job about 12 yeas ago (and I am told the practice still holds today), I was bounced right out after taking a test to see if I was qualified. I took the test with another guy who was black. We both heard the same thing 2 weeks later:

Our tests were rejected immediately after taking them because they werent considering us until 9 months from then. The reason? They hired rotationally. Right now it was for asians only. Next would be hispanics, and then us. We were told to come back in 9 months and retest.

 

[William Joyce]

True or false:

Under racial separation, affirmative action would not be an issue at all. Blacks couldn't complain about racist whites, racist whites couldn't complain about blacks, the life circumstances of blacks would be attributable to blacks, and only blacks, same for whites.

Come to think of it, RACE ITSELF wouldn't be an issue. I, William Joyce, would have to SHUT UP and find something else to talk about.

Ain't that a kick in the pants?

Just a thought.

 

[NewGuy]

Racial seperation is not Constitutional either.