ACLU backs Wiccan suit

[GotZoom]

My only problem with this is like what Gem said. Where doe sit stop?

Voodoo is a religion in some parts of the country. Santeria is very popular in southern Florida. Will this extend there so one evening we will see a Santeria priestess sacrificing a chicken on the floor of a city council meeting?

 

[mattskramer]

LOL - I love it. I love it. Oh no! What about the Christians!?! Do you mean that they might have to sit through a non-Christian prayer once in a great while. How will they survive! I remember when some non-Christians students were practically forced to sit through Christian prayers. Now, these prayers happened every morning - 5 days per week. When they complained, they were basically told to bring a Walkman and shut up. Now, once in a great while, a group gets a Wiccan prayer, and some people scream "Foul". My heart bleeds for you. Tell ya what. Bring your MP3 player and I'll chip in for you to have some headphones.

 

[Gem]

Matt,

Not quite sure why you are trying to make this about Christians feeling pouty about having to share...that is not accurate.

The problem has little to do with Christians feeling that they should be the only ones allowed to pray...not many would say that that is the case...rather, the problem is: Do we allow it all, allow nothing, or is there a middle ground?

Using common sense (which more and more doesn't seem to apply in these cases) it makes sense that if a prayer is appropriate, it would be Christian...take a look at the breakdown of religion among our nation's citizens and you will see why.

However, we are also an inclusive nation...willing to consider the rights and religions of others (how nice of us...many nations would simply kill or imprison the Wiccan woman in question). And that brings up problems...do we allow anyone with a religion to take up time in a situation in which a prayer is going to be said? Are their religions that won't be allowed? What are the reasons by which a religion might be ruled out? Is there a time that prayers can take up that can be considered "too long?" Or must we equally represent any person who wants to pray...even if it ends up taking much longer than was originally intended?

Do we throw up our hands and say, "This is too much trouble! We'll just do away with all public prayer althogether!" What happens to our nation...in which public prayer has been something that has occurred here since its inception...if we state that in order to be fair to all...no one can express religious prayers, views, etc...unless all can be included equally?

There are a lot of questions regarding this issue...and most of them have nothing to do with christians getting mad at having to listen to someone else's prayers. If they went to a meeting in which Wiccans made up 99% of the group...my guess is that almost every person here who has discussed this topic would not have a problem listening to a Wiccan prayer...

 

[mattskramer]

Simple solution:

Take a survey: What religion do you follow? Would you want a member of your religion to give a prayer? How long do you think that such a prayer would be? Gather the replies and organize them by religion. Consider the number of members in each religion.

Let us assume that the group has member of 4 distinct religions, and that a member of each religion wanted its prayer recited, and that the longest prayer would be 4 minutes, and that Wicca comprised only 1% of the group. I doubt that non-Wiccan's would object to a Wiccan prayer recited once for just 4 minutes every 3 months (once after roughly 99 days or only 1 percent of the time). Or is that too much for the non-Wiccan's to take?

 

[Gem]

Matt...

Its a solution. It might work. That wasn't hard, was it? And you didn't even have to sarcastically accuse all Christians of throwing a hissy fit in order to come up with that solution...nice work.

But since we have moved on and are actually trying to address potential problems? How about when someone wants a religion that is deemed offensive to the majority? What happens if the majority do not want their time taken up by one person's prayers? Do they have the right to impose their will upon that one person? Or does that one person have the right to sue for their right to express their religious beliefs in prayer?

My problem really isn't with this Wiccan woman's plight. Wicca is a very peaceful religion, quite beautiful, really, in many respects. My problem is with people who leap to decisions without thinking about how they will effect things in the long run. Having taken Constitutional Law classes I can tell you, the road to some of the most influential Supreme Court decisions are jam packed with little tiny rulings, made by people who did not think about what their decisions could mean in the long run.

You seem to see this case and say, "Hey...the Christians are whining about this one woman's teensy little prayer...what babies...I'll by them a walkman and they can ignore the itsy bitsy little prayer that isn't going to effect them at all." That is certainly one way to look at it.

I however, am trying to look ahead...to how this case might be taken to the nth degree...to how it might be used to justify greater and more important decisions...Do we, as a society, force our citizens to represent every religious view equally under threat of law suit? Will we one day forbid all public displays of religion for fear of law suits from followers of the hundreds of other religions the world over? How would this case...a woman suing for her right to say a prayer from her specific religion...affect not just this case...but other cases in the future?

 

[mattskramer]

My only problem with this is like what Gem said. Where doe sit stop?

Voodoo is a religion in some parts of the country. Santeria is very popular in southern Florida. Will this extend there so one evening we will see a Santeria priestess sacrificing a chicken on the floor of a city council meeting?

It has not even really gotten started yet. Also, we are talking about a brief prayer and not a church service. I would not support a Santeria priestess sacrifices a chicken on the floor of a city council meeting. I hope that you would not support a Catholic priest reenacting "Lord's Supper" on the floor of a city council meeting. Allowing a member of the Santeria or Christian faith to say a brief prayer is a different issue.

 

[Gunny]

Inviting everyone to join is some hoops AFTER the football game would not be inconsiderate though. After all, football isn't the ONLY game in town.



I doubt seriously she expects to convert anyone to Wiccan. It's not unreasonable for her to want her religion to be given the same respect as others.

There's a difference between inviting everyone after the game, and what is going on here. There is no ivitation here. There's an attempt to force the majority to listen to her crap.

The end result here will most likely be an end to ANY invocation. I'd already have the rule drafted just to shove up the ACLUs collective ass. The term " you can't fight city hall" didn't come from nowhere.

The only winners will the braindead ones, such as certain posters here who do nothing but promote the forcing the majority to cater to the whims of the minority, and/or are on a crusade to erase Christianity from history. Nothing but BS, plain and simple, IMO.

 

[Gunny]

LOL - I love it. I love it. Oh no! What about the Christians!?! Do you mean that they might have to sit through a non-Christian prayer once in a great while. How will they survive! I remember when some non-Christians students were practically forced to sit through Christian prayers. Now, these prayers happened every morning - 5 days per week. When they complained, they were basically told to bring a Walkman and shut up. Now, once in a great while, a group gets a Wiccan prayer, and some people scream "Foul". My heart bleeds for you. Tell ya what. Bring your MP3 player and I'll chip in for you to have some headphones.

Of course you love it. Suits your backwards-assed thinking to a "T".

 

[ScreamingEagle]

It has not even really gotten started yet. Also, we are talking about a brief prayer and not a church service. I would not support a Santeria priestess sacrifices a chicken on the floor of a city council meeting. I hope that you would not support a Catholic priest reenacting "Lord's Supper" on the floor of a city council meeting. Allowing a member of the Santeria or Christian faith to say a brief prayer is a different issue.

Why not? If the majority voted to have a "Last Supper" reinactment at the city council meeting why couldn't they have one?

The POINT being is that people vote and the MAJORITY RULES. That is how our democracy works. The ACLU would like us to think otherwise.

 

[mattskramer]

Why not? If the majority voted to have a "Last Supper" reinactment at the city council meeting why couldn't they have one?

The POINT being is that people vote and the MAJORITY RULES. That is how our democracy works. The ACLU would like us to think otherwise.

We do not live in a Democracy. We live in a Republic. This Republic consists of more than 1 level. We have local government, state government, and federal government. Each level of government has 3 branches (legislative, executive, and judicial). Our Republic even has a Constitution with a "Bill of Rights". This multi-faceted representative system of government and its "Bill of Rights" to some degree, helps prevent the majority from being a tyranny to the minority. Thankfully we have relatively knowledgeable politicians to create, execute, and interpret laws on our behalf. Otherwise, what would prevent a majority from creating laws to satisfy itself to the detriment of the minority.