ACLU backs Wiccan suit

[-Cp]

THIS IS SUCH A LOAD OF HORSE CRAP!!!! You KNOW if this was a Christian wanting to Pray the ACLU would be trying to STOP IT!

RICHMOND -- Civil liberties lawyers have appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court to allow a Wiccan priestess to offer prayers before a public board's meetings.
Cynthia Simpson was turned down in 2002 when she asked the Chesterfield Board of Supervisors to add her name to the list of people who customarily open the board's meetings with a religious invocation.
The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals sided with the suburban Richmond county.
In their petition, received by the court yesterday, American Civil Liberties Union lawyers accuse the federal appeals court of trying to "obscure with legal smoke and mirrors" Chesterfield's preference for mainline religions.
"Although Establishment Clause jurisprudence may be beset with conflicting tests, uncertain outcomes and ongoing debate, one principle has never been compromised ... that one religious denomination cannot be officially preferred over another," ACLU attorneys wrote in their 13-page filing.
County officials said they had the right to limit the prayers to Judeo-Christian beliefs and religions based on a single god.
Though many variations exist, the Wiccan faith is a generally a multi-deity religion with strong focus on Earth and seasonal cycles, also defined as a form of witchcraft.
"The First Amendment prohibits governments from having an official religion," ACLU Virginia's legal director, Rebecca Glenberg, said in an interview.
Chesterfield County Attorney Steven Micas was out of the office and not available for comment yesterday.
In 2003, a federal judge ruled the Chesterfield restriction unconstitutional. A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit in Richmond reversed that decision in April.
Miss Simpson's battle mirrors a 2004 case in which Wiccan high priestess Darla Kaye Wynne sued the town of Great Falls, S.C., for specifying that prayers at government meetings invoke the name Jesus Christ.
A federal judge ultimately ruled in Miss Wynne's favor. The appeals court later upheld the ruling -- a decision ACLU attorneys initially thought settled the matter of meeting prayers.
But the court disagreed.
"Our case wasn't specifically about the content of the prayers. It was about who was to give the prayers," Miss Glenberg said. "They just didn't think it was the same kind of case."
Miss Glenberg called the case a question of whether government officials can cherry pick when it comes to religious matters.
"It sets a precedent for allowing the government to treat people differently based on their religion," she said. "It's that part that's troubling."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20050809-101320-1232r.htm

 

[archangel]

Just one cult supporting another...wicca is allowed in the military...so I suppose they are just trying to gain military support...funny though cause they attacked the military on the "Boy Scout" issue...The ACLU must go as of yesterday...Rico statues I say! or "Men in Black"

 

[MissileMan]

THIS IS SUCH A LOAD OF HORSE CRAP!!!! You KNOW if this was a Christian wanting to Pray the ACLU would be trying to STOP IT!

You apparently missed the part of the article that talks about opening these public board meetings with a religious invocation. I didn't see anything in the article to indicate that the ACLU was trying to prevent religious invocations, only allow for all faiths to be represented. Another over-reaction on your part, but one obviously motivated by the Christian tolerance we hear so much about.

 

[Gunny]

THIS IS SUCH A LOAD OF HORSE CRAP!!!! You KNOW if this was a Christian wanting to Pray the ACLU would be trying to STOP IT!

RICHMOND -- Civil liberties lawyers have appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court to allow a Wiccan priestess to offer prayers before a public board's meetings.
Cynthia Simpson was turned down in 2002 when she asked the Chesterfield Board of Supervisors to add her name to the list of people who customarily open the board's meetings with a religious invocation.
The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals sided with the suburban Richmond county.
In their petition, received by the court yesterday, American Civil Liberties Union lawyers accuse the federal appeals court of trying to "obscure with legal smoke and mirrors" Chesterfield's preference for mainline religions.
"Although Establishment Clause jurisprudence may be beset with conflicting tests, uncertain outcomes and ongoing debate, one principle has never been compromised ... that one religious denomination cannot be officially preferred over another," ACLU attorneys wrote in their 13-page filing.
County officials said they had the right to limit the prayers to Judeo-Christian beliefs and religions based on a single god.
Though many variations exist, the Wiccan faith is a generally a multi-deity religion with strong focus on Earth and seasonal cycles, also defined as a form of witchcraft.
"The First Amendment prohibits governments from having an official religion," ACLU Virginia's legal director, Rebecca Glenberg, said in an interview.
Chesterfield County Attorney Steven Micas was out of the office and not available for comment yesterday.
In 2003, a federal judge ruled the Chesterfield restriction unconstitutional. A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit in Richmond reversed that decision in April.
Miss Simpson's battle mirrors a 2004 case in which Wiccan high priestess Darla Kaye Wynne sued the town of Great Falls, S.C., for specifying that prayers at government meetings invoke the name Jesus Christ.
A federal judge ultimately ruled in Miss Wynne's favor. The appeals court later upheld the ruling -- a decision ACLU attorneys initially thought settled the matter of meeting prayers.
But the court disagreed.
"Our case wasn't specifically about the content of the prayers. It was about who was to give the prayers," Miss Glenberg said. "They just didn't think it was the same kind of case."
Miss Glenberg called the case a question of whether government officials can cherry pick when it comes to religious matters.
"It sets a precedent for allowing the government to treat people differently based on their religion," she said. "It's that part that's troubling."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20050809-101320-1232r.htm

Of course the ACLU backs it. It's perverted. You're surprised?

 

[MissileMan]

It's perverted.

You don't think that's a tad extreme? You don't really think all things non-Christian are perversions do you?

 

[no1tovote4]

Of course the ACLU backs it. It's perverted. You're surprised?

Do you honestly believe Wicca is perverted? In what way? Or is it simply any religion that might not be Christianity?

 

[Gunny]

You don't think that's a tad extreme? You don't really think all things non-Christian are perversions do you?

I am not indicting difference. I am indicting those who think the majority should have to bow to the whims of the minority. The ACLU represents nothing else -- the tyranny of the minority.

 

[no1tovote4]

I am not indicting difference. I am indicting those who think the majority should have to bow to the whims of the minority. The ACLU represents nothing else -- the tyranny of the minority.

Okay, at the opening of these meetings there is a religious invocation. The person giving the invocation is chosen from a specific list of regional religious leaders that did not include Wicca. This person simply wanted her religion to be represented like the others that were represented. How is it tyranny?

 

[MissileMan]

I am not indicting difference. I am indicting those who think the majority should have to bow to the whims of the minority. The ACLU represents nothing else -- the tyranny of the minority.

I'm not sure that you can justify calling this woman's religion or her desire to have her faith held in the same regard as Christianity a whim.

 

[Gunny]

Okay, at the opening of these meetings there is a religious invocation. The person giving the invocation is chosen from a specific list of regional religious leaders that did not include Wicca. This person simply wanted her religion to be represented like the others that were represented. How is it tyranny?

Wiccans account for what percent of ANY population? Yet this woman wants to force her religious views on the majority when it is quite clear no one else (except the ACLU of course) wants to hear them.

Sounds like tyranny of the minority to me. The ACLU will find a justice to support them, the woman will win, and the majority will be forced to listen to bunch of crap they don't believe in.

I will add this .... I firmly believe that if there is ANY question regarding prayer, then one should not be given at all. If everyone is a Christian or whatever, and all agree to a PRIVATE prayer prior to state busniess, no problem.

 

[Gem]

Okay, at the opening of these meetings there is a religious invocation. The person giving the invocation is chosen from a specific list of regional religious leaders that did not include Wicca. This person simply wanted her religion to be represented like the others that were represented. How is it tyranny?

While I agree with you in theory...here's my "we have to live in the really real world" question: Where does it stop?

Do we allow Satanists to pray to the Devil? Do we offer prayers to every God and Goddess under the sun before any and every occassion in which a prayer is given?

Do we say...no, absolutely not, we can't pray to Satan, Vishnu, Jesus, Allah, the trees...etc. all at the same time so we're just going to go with the majority? Or do we say...since we can't do them all, we aren't going to do any of them???

What happens to our society if we say "If we can't pray to all we pray to none?"

 

[no1tovote4]

Wiccans account for what percent of ANY population? Yet this woman wants to force her religious views on the majority when it is quite clear no one else (except the ACLU of course) wants to hear them.

Sounds like tyranny of the minority to me. The ACLU will find a justice to support them, the woman will win, and the majority will be forced to listen to bunch of crap they don't believe in.

I will add this .... I firmly believe that if there is ANY question regarding prayer, then one should not be given at all. If everyone is a Christian or whatever, and all agree to a PRIVATE prayer prior to state busniess, no problem.

Fair enough...

My bet is that there is a Buddhist on that list, and very few of us are around either, there is probably a Hindi and a Muslim as well. What I believe is happening is the selection of specific and more popular minority religions over the one that is less popular with the PC crowd.

 

[no1tovote4]

While I agree with you in theory...here's my "we have to live in the really real world" question: Where does it stop?

Do we allow Satanists to pray to the Devil? Do we offer prayers to every God and Goddess under the sun before any and every occassion in which a prayer is given?

Do we say...no, absolutely not, we can't pray to Satan, Vishnu, Jesus, Allah, the trees...etc. all at the same time so we're just going to go with the majority? Or do we say...since we can't do them all, we aren't going to do any of them???

What happens to our society if we say "If we can't pray to all we pray to none?"

I didn't express an opinion, I simply asked a question.

I am inclined to agree with his, "There should be no prayer at all except the more private variety" statement than to assume that every religion should be represented.

 

[Gunny]

I'm not sure that you can justify calling this woman's religion or her desire to have her faith held in the same regard as Christianity a whim.

No, it's not a whim. It's a mission. Wiccans -- the PC word for witches -- are not socially accepted as possessing a mainstream religion. This is a political agenda to force her views on the majority.

The Christians will lose this one anyway, so not to worry. They could win, but they won't be that smart. They're going to try and meet this head on, and the ACLU will find a judge sooner or later who will screw them.

A little subterfuge could embarrass the woman, leave the ACLU at the alter, and allow the Christians to have their prayer then their meeting.

 

[Gunny]

Fair enough...

My bet is that there is a Buddhist on that list, and very few of us are around either, there is probably a Hindi and a Muslim as well. What I believe is happening is the selection of specific and more popular minority religions over the one that is less popular with the PC crowd.

I believe in secularism, as the word is defined, not as it is used currently by its hijackers. Government officials from highest to lowest levels should not officially represent "A" religion, nor let one represent them. If an unoffical prayer is held by Christians prior to the proceedings, Ithink they are within their right. As part of the proceedings, in any way, if there is an objection from even one person, then I think it best that none be given at all.

Your list says nothing about the different denominations within Christianity. The prayer is probably generic and bland as white bread. There probably are Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, etc on the list as well.

 

[no1tovote4]

Your list says nothing about the different denominations within Christianity. The prayer is probably generic and bland as white bread. There probably are Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, etc on the list as well.

Oh, I am sure of that. I was only mentioning religions with minority positions in society. Buddhists are clearly a minority. I can go no further than 1 1/2 miles from my house and find a church, and I live in the Boonies. The nearest Buddhist Temple is about 50 miles from my house.

The interesting part of that is they will have a Buddhist on the list but will likely not represent different sects of Buddhists, most people believe they are all the same. I am a Theravada Buddhist, the ones on those "lists" are usually either Shin Buddhists or Tibetan, the differences in the beliefs are actually quite large.

 

[MissileMan]

No, it's not a whim. It's a mission. Wiccans -- the PC word for witches -- are not socially accepted as possessing a mainstream religion. This is a political agenda to force her views on the majority.

Speaking of regard, you seem to have very little for the strength of the faith of your "mainstream" Christians if a Wiccan invocation is this great threat to their spiritual well-being.

I hear lots of complaints about the lefties wanting to eradicate religion from the public domain. The REAL complaint is that Christianity no longer has an exclusive, and Christians are going to bitch no matter what non-Christian ideal is forwarded, religious or not.

Did you ever stop and think that if Christians were more tolerant of other religions and other lifestyles that the ACLU would dry up and blow away?

 

[no1tovote4]

No, it's not a whim. It's a mission. Wiccans -- the PC word for witches -- are not socially accepted as possessing a mainstream religion. This is a political agenda to force her views on the majority.

The Christians will lose this one anyway, so not to worry. They could win, but they won't be that smart. They're going to try and meet this head on, and the ACLU will find a judge sooner or later who will screw them.

There is a difference between the Biblical definition of Witch and a Wiccan. Witches in the Bible made pacts with the Devil for power. Wiccans actually believe in a Goddess and make no pact with the Devil at all.

 

[Gunny]

Speaking of regard, you seem to have very little for the strength of the faith of your "mainstream" Christians if a Wiccan invocation is this great threat to their spiritual well-being.

I hear lots of complaints about the lefties wanting to eradicate religion from the public domain. The REAL complaint is that Christianity no longer has an exclusive, and Christians are going to bitch no matter what non-Christian ideal is forwarded, religious or not.

Did you ever stop and think that if Christians were more tolerant of other religions and other lifestyles that the ACLU would dry up and blow away?

Your argument seems a bit twisted from my point of view. Instead of "regard," let's try "consideration." If your buddies are playing football, do you show up with a basketball and demand they quit what they decided to do as group and do what you decided as an individual YOU want to do? Rather inconsiderate of you if you do.

And speaking of regard, I was taught to believe that if the majority was doing one thing and I wanted to do another, I had several options. I could go along with what they wanted regardless my desires, or I could go do what I wanted on my own. Forcing everyone else to cater to me was NOT one of the options offered.

Why people think that come Hell of highwater they have to force the majority to conform to their individualism is beyond me. And why people like you defend them is equally out there.

This isn't about this woman's religious beliefs. It's about her demanding the majority accept her views. And apparently the PC-Minority Nazis have taken up her cause.

 

[MissileMan]

Your argument seems a bit twisted from my point of view. Instead of "regard," let's try "consideration." If your buddies are playing football, do you show up with a basketball and demand they quit what they decided to do as group and do what you decided as an individual YOU want to do? Rather inconsiderate of you if you do.

Inviting everyone to join is some hoops AFTER the football game would not be inconsiderate though. After all, football isn't the ONLY game in town.

This isn't about this woman's religious beliefs. It's about her demanding the majority accept her views. And apparently the PC-Minority Nazis have taken up her cause.

I doubt seriously she expects to convert anyone to Wiccan. It's not unreasonable for her to want her religion to be given the same respect as others.