Abstinence vs. Condoms in our schools..

[BrokenAngel]

In responding to the thread “Pope v. Science on Condoms” by LiveUninhibited, I could not help but wonder.

What the church teaches is abstinence until marriage right? This has become a religious stance. What I want to know is why is it considered JUST a religious stance?

Teaching proper use of condoms and other such protection is important but why is it considered a right wing religious conspiracy to force abstinence on our children? Shouldn’t the idea be stressed to our youth, at this point especially?

The next generation coming into their own is playfully referred to as generation sex. They are taking nudes and sending them to friends, spamming them across the internet. Girls and boys have sex with numerous partners; even if they think ‘Oh, it is just oral’, it is still sex.

I am looking to hear some real opinions on the topic because if there is one thing we all know, each generation has to be more shocking than the last and looking at the newest generation, which is a little terrifying.

 

[Toro]

I am far from being a religious conservative, but I definitely believe in teaching abstinence as a means of birth control. If the end goal is to reduce teenage pregnancy, then opposing the teaching of abstinence is merely ideological.

However, teaching the proper use of condoms is also a way of reducing pregnancy and that should be taught as well.

 

[Luissa]

In responding to the thread “Pope v. Science on Condoms” by LiveUninhibited, I could not help but wonder.

What the church teaches is abstinence until marriage right? This has become a religious stance. What I want to know is why is it considered JUST a religious stance?

Teaching proper use of condoms and other such protection is important but why is it considered a right wing religious conspiracy to force abstinence on our children? Shouldn’t the idea be stressed to our youth, at this point especially?

The next generation coming into their own is playfully referred to as generation sex. They are taking nudes and sending them to friends, spamming them across the internet. Girls and boys have sex with numerous partners; even if they think ‘Oh, it is just oral’, it is still sex.

I am looking to hear some real opinions on the topic because if there is one thing we all know, each generation has to be more shocking than the last and looking at the newest generation, which is a little terrifying.

by the way I started taking sex ed about eighteen years ago in public school and they taught abstinence was the best way back then. It isn't something new, we also had an abstinence only club at my high school of older students that went around and talked to the freshman classes. The group was made up of the cheerleader etc, half were not abstinence. I thought it was hilarious when they came to my class and one coupld had been getting it on at a party that weekend. This is why they also taught us proper condom us along with abstinence.

 

[Ocean56]

I am far from being a religious conservative, but I definitely believe in teaching abstinence as a means of birth control. If the end goal is to reduce teenage pregnancy, then opposing the teaching of abstinence is merely ideological.

However, teaching the proper use of condoms is also a way of reducing pregnancy and that should be taught as well.

I agree, I believe BOTH should be taught. I don't believe that focusing on abstinence-ONLY while locking out all other information is productive, because from the teen pregnancy statistics I've seen, just teaching abstinence-ONLY has been a miserable failure.

From my own experience as a teen (which I grant was over two decades ago), abstinence was a practical ADVANTAGE, not a punishment. As most of us know, there is NO contraceptive on the market that is 100% guaranteed against pregnancy occurring, or a guarantee against sexually transmitted diseases, which can be incurable (Herpes) or worse, potentially fatal (AIDS).

Abstinence from ALL sexual activity is the best protection available, and it allows teens the freedom to do what is most important; which is, complete high school, get their diplomas, and either go on to college or vocational school. That's why I say it's the practical advantage.

 

[Agnapostate]

If the end goal is to reduce teenage pregnancy, then opposing the teaching of abstinence is merely ideological.

I'm curious: Why do you consider that a commendable goal to begin with?

I'm not of the opinion that schools should be indoctrinating people into any particular behavior pattern, but the hierarchical structure of schooling prevents that to begin with...

 

[Old Rocks]

Let's see. I was 14 in 1957. Many of the girls I knew in various rural towns in Oregon and Washington were married before they were 18, and had 'early' deliveries, usually about six months after marriage. The major differance in sexuality and teens then and now is that the male felt that the child was also his responsibility. Nature has seen fit to give us the most harmones when we have the least brains, thus ensuring the continuance of the human race, and that mothers will continue to get gray.

 

[Agnapostate]

Let's see. I was 14 in 1957. Many of the girls I knew in various rural towns in Oregon and Washington were married before they were 18, and had 'early' deliveries, usually about six months after marriage. The major differance in sexuality and teens then and now is that the male felt that the child was also his responsibility. Nature has seen fit to give us the most harmones when we have the least brains, thus ensuring the continuance of the human race, and that mothers will continue to get gray.

I don't know where you got that idea. Adolescence is itself a social construct developed in the late nineteenth and earliest twentieth centuries; reference to "the least brains" is itself dependent on a perspective derived from a certain set of cultural conditions. Regardless, it is enlightening to examine the stability of youth marriage in times past whilst so many now claim that such relationships suffer from inherent instabilities. The fact that a rising divorce rate paralleled a rising average marriage age, as well as the fact that men aged 18-20 have lower divorce rates than slightly older men, certainly puts a dent in that claim.

 

[Seraega]

Schools should be for reading, writing and arithmetic, not social policy.

 

[Old Rocks]

Let's see. I was 14 in 1957. Many of the girls I knew in various rural towns in Oregon and Washington were married before they were 18, and had 'early' deliveries, usually about six months after marriage. The major differance in sexuality and teens then and now is that the male felt that the child was also his responsibility. Nature has seen fit to give us the most harmones when we have the least brains, thus ensuring the continuance of the human race, and that mothers will continue to get gray.

I don't know where you got that idea. Adolescence is itself a social construct developed in the late nineteenth and earliest twentieth centuries; reference to "the least brains" is itself dependent on a perspective derived from a certain set of cultural conditions. Regardless, it is enlightening to examine the stability of youth marriage in times past whilst so many now claim that such relationships suffer from inherent instabilities. The fact that a rising divorce rate paralleled a rising average marriage age, as well as the fact that men aged 18-20 have lower divorce rates than slightly older men, certainly puts a dent in that claim.

LOL. I distinctly remember the period between my 13th and 20th birthdays. There is no way from the perspective of my present adulthood that I would label myself sane during that period. Some of the chances I took, some of the ideas that I had, had no logic at all to them. Adolescence is a definate period in almost everyone's life where the physcal development has exceeded the mental. A wonderful, strange, and sometimes terrifying period of exploration of ones physical and mental development.

 

[Agnapostate]

LOL. I distinctly remember the period between my 13th and 20th birthdays. There is no way from the perspective of my present adulthood that I would label myself sane during that period. Some of the chances I took, some of the ideas that I had, had no logic at all to them. Adolescence is a definate period in almost everyone's life where the physcal development has exceeded the mental. A wonderful, strange, and sometimes terrifying period of exploration of ones physical and mental development.

The problem with random anecdotal accounts is that they do effectively nothing to provide empirical evidence that can serve as a basis for policy formation. If I were to attest to the fact that my experience was entirely different than yours, that would not establish a form of empirical evidence any more than your anecdotal account would, simply because of the nature of the widely varying spectrum of human experiences, actions, and behaviors.

But regardless, I don't believe you've understood my meaning. Adolescence was not conceptualized as a separate stage of life until after the Industrial Revolution; it was effectively nonexistent prior to that. The entire conception of childhood itself has only been significantly strengthened from its biological boundaries during the past several centuries.

 

[KittenKoder]

Schools should be for reading, writing and arithmetic, not social policy.

However, to avoid teaching social policy more parents have to take the responsibility, otherwise we have the problems we are now facing but in larger proportions. Teen pregnancies while not increasing in percentages are increasing in numbers do to the increase in the number of teens. This poses a problem to us all, taxpayers mostly as it is a huge drain on the system. So it does need to be addressed at this time.

 

[Agnapostate]

However, to avoid teaching social policy more parents have to take the responsibility, otherwise we have the problems we are now facing but in larger proportions. Teen pregnancies while not increasing in percentages are increasing in numbers do to the increase in the number of teens. This poses a problem to us all, taxpayers mostly as it is a huge drain on the system. So it does need to be addressed at this time.

That's a rather dubious assessment, in my opinion. Early childbearing functions as a reproductive strategy for racial and ethnic minorities because it reduces the possibility of labor interruptions later in life, inasmuch as a teenage mother is surrounded by family members able to provide her with aid.

For instance, Hotz et al.'s Teenage Childbearing and Its Life Cycle Consequences: Exploiting a Natural Experiment notes the following:

We exploit a "natural experiment" associated with human reproduction to identify the causal effect of teen childbearing on the socioeconomic attainment of teen mothers. We exploit the fact that some women who become pregnant experience a miscarriage and do not have a live birth. Using miscarriages an instrumental variable, we estimate the effect of teen mothers not delaying their childbearing on their subsequent attainment. We find that many of the negative consequences of teenage childbearing are much smaller than those found in previous studies. For most outcomes, the adverse consequences of early childbearing are short-lived. Finally, for annual hours of work and earnings, we find that a teen mother would have lower levels of each at older ages if they had delayed their childbearing.

In light of that, it's advisable to significantly consider "conventional wisdom" on the allegedly adverse costs of teenage childbearing, as advised by Geronimus and Korenman.

 

[Old Rocks]

Schools should be for reading, writing and arithmetic, not social policy.

However, to avoid teaching social policy more parents have to take the responsibility, otherwise we have the problems we are now facing but in larger proportions. Teen pregnancies while not increasing in percentages are increasing in numbers do to the increase in the number of teens. This poses a problem to us all, taxpayers mostly as it is a huge drain on the system. So it does need to be addressed at this time.

Addressed with an understanding of the reality of the people involved, not on an ideological or religious basis. The idea is to keep children from having children. In full knowledge of what always has been and will be with the humans involved, many will express their sexuality at an early age. They need to be taught preventive measures.

I have seen the results of the teaching of abstinance only, and it simply does not work. That is reality.

 

[Agnapostate]

The idea is to keep children from having children.

That isn't a biological possibility, I'm afraid. Hasn't it occurred to anyone that human evolution would not have endowed adolescents with the ability to reproduce if it was inherently maladaptive?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Let's see. I was 14 in 1957. Many of the girls I knew in various rural towns in Oregon and Washington were married before they were 18, and had 'early' deliveries, usually about six months after marriage. The major differance in sexuality and teens then and now is that the male felt that the child was also his responsibility. Nature has seen fit to give us the most harmones when we have the least brains, thus ensuring the continuance of the human race, and that mothers will continue to get gray.

I don't know where you got that idea. Adolescence is itself a social construct developed in the late nineteenth and earliest twentieth centuries; reference to "the least brains" is itself dependent on a perspective derived from a certain set of cultural conditions. Regardless, it is enlightening to examine the stability of youth marriage in times past whilst so many now claim that such relationships suffer from inherent instabilities. The fact that a rising divorce rate paralleled a rising average marriage age, as well as the fact that men aged 18-20 have lower divorce rates than slightly older men, certainly puts a dent in that claim.

LOL. I distinctly remember the period between my 13th and 20th birthdays. There is no way from the perspective of my present adulthood that I would label myself sane during that period. Some of the chances I took, some of the ideas that I had, had no logic at all to them. Adolescence is a definate period in almost everyone's life where the physcal development has exceeded the mental. A wonderful, strange, and sometimes terrifying period of exploration of ones physical and mental development.

How much of that idiocy of adolescence is cultural?

I daresay a large proportion. If we started expecting 15 and 16 year old boys to be responsible and hold them accountable, they would be.

But we have a generation, several generations actually, of young men who at 16 still have mommy and daddy wiping their asses. Children are not expected to do anything, no chores, no work around the house. Modern parents have epically failed. Time was when children as young as 6 or 7 would get up early and tend to household chores before breakfast, would go to school and upon returning home would be expected to contribute in meaningful ways to the household.

Today, children of that age are coddled and pampered, chauffeured around by their parents and treated like royalty. Husbands and wives sacrifice their personal relationship with each other and live their lives around their children's schedules. Talk about backwards priorities.

Not too long ago a 16 or 17 year old boy was considered a man, and was expected to work, support himself and more likely than not support a wife and child(ren) as well. What has fundamentally changed that a 17 year old is now expected to be an idiotic, irresponsible, nuisance and given a pass merely because he is not 18. Certainly these youngsters of today are better educated and have more opportunities than those youngsters of the same age from several centuries ago. Their brains and bodies are no different, only their behavior is different.

For that matter 18 year olds and even young men in their 20s are worse than teenagers these days. These are not but behavioral differences which are perpetuated by an overly permissive society.

 

[KittenKoder]

Schools should be for reading, writing and arithmetic, not social policy.

However, to avoid teaching social policy more parents have to take the responsibility, otherwise we have the problems we are now facing but in larger proportions. Teen pregnancies while not increasing in percentages are increasing in numbers do to the increase in the number of teens. This poses a problem to us all, taxpayers mostly as it is a huge drain on the system. So it does need to be addressed at this time.

Addressed with an understanding of the reality of the people involved, not on an ideological or religious basis. The idea is to keep children from having children. In full knowledge of what always has been and will be with the humans involved, many will express their sexuality at an early age. They need to be taught preventive measures.

I have seen the results of the teaching of abstinance only, and it simply does not work. That is reality.

How did you get the idea that I support teaching abstinence only?

 

[Seraega]

The idea is to keep children from having children.

That isn't a biological possibility, I'm afraid. Hasn't it occurred to anyone that human evolution would not have endowed adolescents with the ability to reproduce if it was inherently maladaptive?

In fact, the onset of menarche has consistently been on the decline over the last 100 years and is generally attributed to better nutrition and healthcare.

 

[Agnapostate]

In fact, the onset of menarche has consistently been on the decline over the last 100 years and is generally attributed to better nutrition and healthcare.

Yes, I'm aware of that. It's been reduced from about 17 to 12.5 in the U.S.

 

[Skull Pilot]

it's the hormones in the milk

 

[KittenKoder]

In fact, the onset of menarche has consistently been on the decline over the last 100 years and is generally attributed to better nutrition and healthcare.

Yes, I'm aware of that. It's been reduced from about 17 to 12.5 in the U.S.

Actually, there were (I think) several cases of 8-10 year olds recently, though I don't know how many of the offspring survived, just saw the story and went my usual "meh" then forgot about it.