Abraham

[Mariner]

sounding like playground here at recess.

Here's what you wrote, LuvRPgirl:

"The Koran is a bunch of BS. Written by ONE MAN, who supposedly had a revelation. What reason is there to believe it? Now, the accounts of Jesus had MANY witnesses, even Peter who was willing to be crucified himself before denying it.

The Koran was written by a man who married an older lady for money, was a pedophile and a war monger.

Also, I think its symbolic that the symbol of Islam is a lie also. Its the crescent moon with a star behind it. We all now know that scene cant happen in nature. I think its symbolic of the lie that Islam is, its a religion of the devil."

This is a complete distortion. Muhammad was a pacifist. Why not pick up a good book about world religion? Where do you get the idea he was a pedophile? He did not care about money--this is also clearly known. His religion required that wealthy people give 10% of their annual profits to the poor. As for all the witnesses who prove to you that Christianity is the only possible correct religion--well, most of the Bible was written well after the fact. If I told you that my religion was "proved" by something a few people said they saw, that was written down 200 years later, that would convince you? Why is it more convincing to you if several different people wrote down the Bible than if one man wrote the Koran? I don't see the difference. Makes me curious what you think of Joseph Smith and Mormonism.

As for the Islamic symbol--one might see it as a "lie" or one might see it as a statement that what may seem paradoxical can be true. Or it might just be a nice visual design. One might respond by saying that Christians, rather strangely, venerate a torture device, and hang it around their necks.

Hinduism doesn't make demands such as God's of Abraham. That was why I asked the original question. Hinduism asks us all to know ourselves as deeply as we can, and to seek to see that we are both separate--reponsible for ourselves--and connected to the web not only of people but of all animals and things (one reason we don't eat animals).

You mentioned my wife. She's a practicing Catholic. So I'm clearly not asking my question in an anti-Christian manner, and you don't have to get all riled up.

Besides, I assume "RP" means Republican Party? The official RP line right now is that Islam is a great world religion, and that extremists do not speak for Muslims everywhere any more than Christian extremists, e.g. those willing to murder abortion providers, speak for all Christians.

Mariner.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Besides, I assume "RP" means Republican Party? The official RP line right now is that Islam is a great world religion, and that extremists do not speak for Muslims everywhere any more than Christian extremists, e.g. those willing to murder abortion providers, speak for all Christians.

Mariner.

The difference is that the doctrine of jihad is explicity spelled out in your religious texts. You are instructed that it's ok to lie to gain a temporary peace with the non islamic world while you gather strength for you next assault, for instance. It's truly satanic.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

The difference is that the doctrine of jihad is explicity spelled out in your religious texts. You are instructed that it's ok to lie to gain a temporary peace with the non islamic world while you gather strength for you next assault, for instance. It's truly satanic.

I think Mariner is a Hindu.

If his questions are legitimate, then it is worth discussing.

However, if he is going to make statements as though they are irrevocable FACT, unquestioned by many, then he isnt seeking a dialogue.

I know an extremely reputable and intelligent Christian apologetic, I know him personally, he has written many books and has his own radio program. He is more informed than anyone I personally know. He has several degrees. He would vehemently disagree, while providing proof and a solid arguement, that the writings about Jesus are NOT 200 years old, and the rest of your arguements against the legitimacy of the history of Jesus are not legitimate

Have you heard of the Deas Sea Scrolls?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

sounding like playground here at recess.

Here's what you wrote, LuvRPgirl:

"The Koran is a bunch of BS. Written by ONE MAN, who supposedly had a revelation. What reason is there to believe it? Now, the accounts of Jesus had MANY witnesses, even Peter who was willing to be crucified himself before denying it.

The Koran was written by a man who married an older lady for money, was a pedophile and a war monger.

Also, I think its symbolic that the symbol of Islam is a lie also. Its the crescent moon with a star behind it. We all now know that scene cant happen in nature. I think its symbolic of the lie that Islam is, its a religion of the devil."

This is a complete distortion. Muhammad was a pacifist. Why not pick up a good book about world religion? Where do you get the idea he was a pedophile? He did not care about money--this is also clearly known. His religion required that wealthy people give 10% of their annual profits to the poor. As for all the witnesses who prove to you that Christianity is the only possible correct religion--well, most of the Bible was written well after the fact. If I told you that my religion was "proved" by something a few people said they saw, that was written down 200 years later, that would convince you? Why is it more convincing to you if several different people wrote down the Bible than if one man wrote the Koran? I don't see the difference. Makes me curious what you think of Joseph Smith and Mormonism.

As for the Islamic symbol--one might see it as a "lie" or one might see it as a statement that what may seem paradoxical can be true. Or it might just be a nice visual design. One might respond by saying that Christians, rather strangely, venerate a torture device, and hang it around their necks.

Hinduism doesn't make demands such as God's of Abraham. That was why I asked the original question. Hinduism asks us all to know ourselves as deeply as we can, and to seek to see that we are both separate--reponsible for ourselves--and connected to the web not only of people but of all animals and things (one reason we don't eat animals).

You mentioned my wife. She's a practicing Catholic. So I'm clearly not asking my question in an anti-Christian manner, and you don't have to get all riled up.

Besides, I assume "RP" means Republican Party? The official RP line right now is that Islam is a great world religion, and that extremists do not speak for Muslims everywhere any more than Christian extremists, e.g. those willing to murder abortion providers, speak for all Christians.

Mariner.

I will do FURTHER research into mohamed.

I didnt bring your wife into this. My question is a common one not used to ask a genuine question, but to impart guilt on someone without giving them a chance to defend themselves by asking a very perjurious question.

So, are you saying Pauls letters were written two hundred years after the death of Jesus?

Mormonism is not Christianity. It is also a bogus religion. They have no credble evidence that J smith got his revelation from God, as neither does Mohamed.

Many historical events were written about much later, so what? The crusifixition of Peter stands as a historical event. He defended the faith.
Are you trying to say that a group of people starting wandering the Mediteranean area spreading the word of Jesus, who didnt exist at the time? Weird.

The cross my seem weird to some, but its a real symbol of a real item. The crescent moon is a lie. It doesnt exist in nature. You might think the cross is a strange symbol to use, but its a symbol of Jesus dying for us, but never the less, its still a REAL SYMBOL, whereas the crescent moon CANT happen. Its a lie, a distortion. Can God create such a thing? Irrelevant. Fact is, it cant happen in nature. Its a symbol, SYMBOLIC of what the religion is about, its about something that doesnt exist.

Hinduism as far as I know is a philosophy, not a religion. Does it have a leader, a God? ONE GOD?

as for your characterization of how the Bible was written about, your distortion also tells me you arent interested in the truth. The Bible was written by more than "a few" or "several",,,people like you carefully choose those words so they wont be complete out and out lies, but can reduce the credibility of the Bible if one accepts what terms you use, when the fact is the Bible was written by MANY MANY people, and Jesus was written about by many, many people also.

 

[Said1]

.

Hinduism as far as I know is a philosophy, not a religion. Does it have a leader, a God? ONE GOD?

There is a common misconception that Hindus worship many gods- as it would appear. Hinduism accepts the existence of several Gods or deities not unlike Catholics only the mythology and practice of story telling is very different and they worship differently from what we mostly know in the west through Christianity. It's also important to note they believe in the fact that there is only one supreme God or truth.

I let Meriner answer the rest. Maybe he'd like to discuss the influence of Islam on his own religion - interesting stuff.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

sounding like playground here at recess.

Here's what you wrote, LuvRPgirl:

"The Koran is a bunch of BS. Written by ONE MAN, who supposedly had a revelation. What reason is there to believe it? Now, the accounts of Jesus had MANY witnesses, even Peter who was willing to be crucified himself before denying it.

The Koran was written by a man who married an older lady for money, was a pedophile and a war monger.

This is a complete distortion. Muhammad was a pacifist. Why not pick up a good book about world religion? Where do you get the idea he was a pedophile? He did not care about money--this is also clearly known. His religion required that wealthy people give 10% of their annual profits to the poor. As for all the witnesses who prove to you that Christianity is the only possible correct religion--well, most of the Bible was written well after the fact. If I told you that my religion was "proved" by something a few people said they saw, that was written down 200 years later, that would convince you? Why is it more convincing to you if several different people wrote down the Bible than if one man wrote the Koran? I don't see the difference. Makes me curious what you think of Joseph Smith and Mormonism.

As for the Islamic symbol--one might see it as a "lie" or one might see it as a statement that what may seem paradoxical can be true. Or it might just be a nice visual design. One might respond by saying that Christians, rather strangely, venerate a torture device, and hang it around their necks.

Hinduism doesn't make demands such as God's of Abraham. That was why I asked the original question. Hinduism asks us all to know ourselves as deeply as we can, and to seek to see that we are both separate--reponsible for ourselves--and connected to the web not only of people but of all animals and things (one reason we don't eat animals).

You mentioned my wife. She's a practicing Catholic. So I'm clearly not asking my question in an anti-Christian manner, and you don't have to get all riled up.

Besides, I assume "RP" means Republican Party? The official RP line right now is that Islam is a great world religion, and that extremists do not speak for Muslims everywhere any more than Christian extremists, e.g. those willing to murder abortion providers, speak for all Christians.

Mariner.

No, RP means Rep of the Philippines, the official line of the Rep party is not my beliefs even though I am a Repub, because Im not running for office.

""Citing passages from the Hadith, the collected sayings of Mohammed, ... by his own account, the founder of Islam was often possessed by Satan. The phrase "Satanic Verses" refers to words that Mohammed first claimed had come from God, but which he later concluded were spoken by Satan. Mohammed married 11 women, kept two others as concubines and recommended wife-beating (but only as a last resort!). His third wife was 6 years old when he married her and 9 when he consummated the marriage. To say that Mohammed was a demon-possessed pedophile is not an attack. It's a fact." (quoted from Murder for Fun and Prophet)"

Was Mohammed a man of peace, as proclaimed by current Islamic literature, or a military leader? The Prophet announced the concept of holy war (Jihad) in 624 AD. The Koran records his words, "I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. ...And slay them wherever ye catch them...." In the next nine years Mohammed personally led nine of at least 27 military campaigns.

 

[Powerman]

or in the foxhole...

Ever heard of Pat Tillman? Yeah he was an atheist and he died for your country. Atheists are just as willing to die for a noble cause as anyone else.

 

[manu1959]

i would not kill my son

 

[no1tovote4]

Ever heard of Pat Tillman? Yeah he was an atheist and he died for your country. Atheists are just as willing to die for a noble cause as anyone else.

Link us up, man! Link it. What evidence do you have of Tillman's religion?

 

[Mariner]

It is an interesting question whether belief systems like Hinduism or Buddhism are religions in the Western sense. To me, the question doesn't really work. A "religion in the Western sense" is really a cultural element. One of the biggest problems of Islamic culture, for example, is that Islam explicitly connects the religion with politics. That is why you see Muslims everywhere pushing for Islamic states. We can therefore expect that if/when Iraq becomes a functioning democracy, it will be an Islamic democracy, where church/state separation is hard to achieve. On the other hand, fortunately, there is also a long history of tolerance in Islam. Prior ot the Crusades, Christians and Jews were permitted to practice their religions in the Islamic empire.

Hinduism is a very complicated set of beliefs. It is both pantheistic and monotheistic. Different believers take different views of it. If I'm in India, on any given evening, a relative might jump up and say, "Let's go visit the shrine of such-and-such a god." Everyone jumps in the car and goes. The next day, it's a different god. You can see this as pantheistic, or you can see the deeper structure of the religion where different gods are different aspects of one.

But even the one Hindu god is not a conquering, angry god like that of the Abrahamic religions. He/She/It is not personified as a human, but is an all-pervading connectedness that includes not only all humans but all living creatures, and even all material things.

RightWing, you mentioned "jihad." As I have been learning, in early Islam this term had no warlike meaning at all. Historically, the idea of a Holy War is found equally in all three Abrahamic religions. The Crusades, for example, were Holy Wars conducted by Christians.

One of the most surprising pieces of history I've come across in my recent reading is that of the early Jewish settlers and the formation of the state of Israel. When Jews first arrived in Palestine, buying land from the Arabs, they were not disliked in the least. The Palestinian Arabs saw them as the same race, with a different religion. The formation of the state of Israel displaced a large Arab population. Surrounding Arabic states scorned the homeless Palestinians.

What really made the Arabs flee their former homeland was Israeli terrorism. Menachem Begin was one of the leaders. The key event was the massacre of an Arab village, in which 250 civilians, including children and old people, were killed and their bodies mutilated. Eventually 750,000 Palestinians fled, from the fear of similar atrocities. Arab hatred of Israel began AFTER the formation of the state by such violent means, not before. This history was news to me, since the later formation of the PLO has made the Arabs seem like the only terrorists in Israel. I was stunned to learn that the first terrorists there were in fact Israeli.

The Israelis were motivated by the need for a safe harbor in the world, and by a feeling of holiness around their return to homeland. Palestinians now, throwing away the lives of their young in suicide bombings, are really yearning for the same thing. The language is the same--a holy enterprise, or jihad.

In other words, it seems to me all three religions use this concept in nearly identical ways. The distortion of the Koranic idea to justify suicide bombing by extremist Muslims is generally recognized by Islamic scholars as incorrect. In fact, original Islam abhorred both violence and suicide, just as original Christianity did. Christians stayed calm for a 1000 years before the Crusades exploded. Islam too stayed calm for a long time. The intense shame of colonization and loss of empire was the setting for the heightened Muslim violence of the last 50 years. The West, particularly the "Great Powers," bear considerable blame. The Palestinians sought relief from the U.N., for example, and were rebuffed by a U.S. veto.

And where did their arrogance, to believe it was ok to colonize other lands come from, than from a spirit of Christian jihad? A driving force behind all colonialism was Christian superiority to the "infidel," "heathen," or "barbaric" religions of the rest of the world. Hindus never colonized anyone.

Back to the original question--LuvRPgirl said her religion would never ask her to sacrifice her child. But in the Bible, that's just what God asks Abraham to do. She's argued for the sanctity of the Bible, so I am curious about the contradiction there. (By the way, yes, I was oversimplifying when I said "several people" "200 years later" wrote the Bible. Sorry, I should have been more precise: "many people" "over the 200 years following Jesus' death.")

Jesus, to me, is one of the most profound and important moral thinkers in history. I don't need his miracles to appreciate his pacificism, egalitarianism, and love for the poor. Though I am a Hindu, if someone looked at my life through Christian eyes, I hope he would see a real effort to live the moral values that Jesus expressed--except for that difficult and conflict-creating part of believing there's only one god, the Christian one (and in LuvRPgirl's case, a particular denomination at that).

Here's another question for everyone? If the 3 Abrahamic faiths descend from a single root, then why can't we simply identify the 3 versions of God as the same God? Wouldn't that (admittedly rather Hindu) approach have saved many lives lost in religious war over the past 2000 years?

...Instead of having Muslims declaring "Allah is the only God," and Christians declaring "our God is the only God," then their drawing knives... to fight, over what? Over what words to use to praise their Creator?

Mariner.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

RightWing, you mentioned "jihad." As I have been learning, in early Islam this term had no warlike meaning at all. Historically, the idea of a Holy War is found equally in all three Abrahamic religions. The Crusades, for example, were Holy Wars conducted by Christians..

Exactly wrong, deafo. Holy war is scripturally supported in a way in Islam in which it most certainly is NOT in christianity. I will post you the links to the texts if you wish. Are you interested in the truth, or are just going to rely on the word of your Islamic studies friend from Iran? I cannot allow you to perpetrate these deceptions.

And Allah is not the same God of christianity. Allah is a moon god from a preislamic pantheistic religion which mohammmed modified. This is the truth. DO you care about the truth?

 

[archangel]

Link us up, man! Link it. What evidence do you have of Tillman's religion?

if you go to Pat Tillmans web site (dedicated) it makes no mention of his religion...however if you go to www.humaniststudies.org/enews/index.html?id=173 a article mentions that his younger brother Richard made some nasty comments during a interview...he said that Pat was not religious...another site mentioned only that Pats two sisters were Catholic...so who really knows how he truly felt about religion!

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Ever heard of Pat Tillman? Yeah he was an atheist and he died for your country. Atheists are just as willing to die for a noble cause as anyone else.

Where's the proof?

 

[dmp]

Ever heard of Pat Tillman? Yeah he was an atheist and he died for your country. Atheists are just as willing to die for a noble cause as anyone else.

Hi! My name is Powerman. I jump to conclusions. Enjoy your day!

"Lookout below!!!!!!!!!"

 

[Powerman]

Where's the proof?

Google "Pat Tillman", Atheist

You'll find all sorts of things about it. Good luck.

 

[Mariner]

some links, or better yet, a good book.

And why don't you pick up Karen Armstrong's "Holy War" or another basic intro to religion text. She's a best-selling author, widely respected as one of the clearest expositors of religious ideas and history. The theme of this entire book is that all the Abrahamic religions are about equally into Holy Wars--it's a long-standing tradition.

Let's not forget, the European Christians ran 7 bloody crusades without the slightest provocation from Muslims. A little bending and twisting, and they were able to fit the idea of Holy War into Christian theology.

If you want to talk about pagan elements influencing later religions, then you'd better take down your Christmas tree (ancient Germanic pagan element), skip the Easter bunny (ancient European fertility rite), and forget Hallowe'en (I don't see too many witches on broomsticks in the Bible). Every time religions spread, they absorb some pagan elements. Why are we celebrating Xmas now? Because of the pagan winter solstice rituals of northen Europe, not because anyone knows what time of year Jesus was actually born.

And also don't forget that most Muslims are completely against the terrorist actions of the few. Unfortunately, they do not live in democratic societies with free press and separation of church and state, so they don't have the usual avenues of speaking up. Living in an Islamist state means letting your religious leaders tell you what to think--which is sometimes what it seems some Christians want here in America.

There's not particular reason that I, as a Hindu, should be supporting Muslims anyway. My father's family was forced to flee Pakistan in the Partition of India, and all their holdings, a farm and a city house, were confiscated by Muslims. I'm simply supporting fairness and arguing against hypocrisy when Christians say, "Oh, we're so perfect" while condemning Muslims wholesale, as if they were all terrorists. That's why I commented on Israeli terrorism.

I do have a particular reason to resent the arrogance that can creep into Christian thinking--it's called colonialism, specifically the disgusting history of British colonialism in my home country of India. But that doesn't make me dislike any individual modern Christian, as long as they are open-minded about other viewpoints. My daughter is being raised Catholic and that is fine with me.

So how do you decide, among all the different Christian versions of God (from Mormom to Eastern Orthodox to Baptist to Amish...) which one is "right"? That's how I feel when it comes to trying to decide which religion is "right." Maybe we're all just human, all susceptible to every vice, all susceptible to equal grace.

Mariner.

 

[Mariner]

on "jihad." It appears that only within Sunni Islam, violent jihad is one of four possible routes of spiritual struggle--and even then, it is normally in defense against occupation. It is militant Islamists in very recent times who have converted this into the type of doomsday/terrorist philosophy that some people here seem to think all Muslims now have.

From the Encarta Encyclopedia:

Jihad, in Islam, the struggle to please God. Jihad is the duty of all mainstream Muslims, who belong to the branch known as Sunni Islam. There are four ways they may fulfill a jihad: by the heart, by the tongue, by the hand, and by the sword. The first refers to the inner, spiritual battle of the heart against vice, passion, and ignorance. The second way means speaking the truth and spreading the word of Islam with one's tongue. The third way involves choosing to do what is right and to combat injustice and what is wrong with action, or one's hand. The fourth way refers to defending Islam and waging war against its enemies with the sword.

Although jihad has come to be equated with “holy war” in the West, most Muslims would argue that military action is only a small part of jihad and that this form of jihad should be undertaken only in self-defense or against injustice. They see the internal struggle to attain self-mastery and lead a virtuous life as far more important. In some countries, however, Muslim activists would like to see Islamic governments installed, and for them jihad encompasses a more revolutionary goal of replacing their country’s political leadership. Still other Muslim militants extend the concept of jihad to acts of terrorism against Western countries whose influence they view as harmful to Islam.

* * *

Mariner, aka Deafo

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Google "Pat Tillman", Atheist

You'll find all sorts of things about it. Good luck.

What is it about you people?

IT'S YOUR CLAIM. YOU PROVE IT. You have the credibility of a drunken moose on this board. Oh dude, happy hour specials at the bar. Better split!

 

[archangel]

Google "Pat Tillman", Atheist

You'll find all sorts of things about it. Good luck.

www.pattillmanfoundation.net/pat/

no mention of his claiming to be a atheist...the other site I posted mentioned his brother(Richard) saying he did not believe in God......

 

[Powerman]

www.pattillmanfoundation.net/pat/

no mention of his claiming to be a atheist...the other site I posted mentioned his brother(Richard) saying he did not believe in God......

And I would venture to say that his brother probably would know if he was an atheist or not. And why would he say he was an atheist if he wasn't?

I don't know if we can definitely find absolute proof that he was an atheist but it sure seems to be the case. Just because it doesn't mention it on one particular website it doesn't mean it's not the case. I saw several websites where it was claimed that he was an atheist.