About ACORN...

[obama2ndterm]

Has anyone,eve been convicted of a crime?

 

[Si modo]

I remember that many of Bush's attorney generals were tasked with finding information on ACORN to convict them and when they couldn't they were fired.

You mean Bush's US Attorneys. There is only one Attorney General. I listened to the hearings quite extensively and don't remember ACORN ever being mentioned in them. Most of the accusations were that instances of alleged political corruption involving Dem official was not prosecuted. I think there were maybe three or so instances of that amongst all of the US Attorneys and some of those allegations were pretty lame. But, I don't remember anything about ACORN.

Maybe you could give me a news report from then to refresh my recollection?

There were several, but here's a quick one.

In October 2008, a report by the Department of Justice's Inspector General found that Iglesias had been wrongfully dismissed because he had refused to pursue prosecutions against the Democrat-linked community organization ACORN and a prominent New Mexico Democrat. "The real reasons for Iglesias' removal were the complaints from New Mexico Republican politicians and party activists about how Iglesias handled voter fraud and public corruption cases in the state," the report says. The Inspector General's report says that Senator Domenici's complaints were the "primary" reason Iglesias was fired. [3]

David Iglesias (attorney) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From what I know of RICO, there must be organizational racketeering to bring charges. In the case of ACORN, there has never been anything to point to that.

Why do you think during that dark period when the Republicans were in total control of the country they didn't use RICO to bring down ACORN? Because they had nothing.

But this is way off topic from the OP.

Good God, Ravi. He asked you about the summer of 2007 and the partisan problems with the DoJ. You dodge that, then you post something in 2008?

You are in such denial or seriously not understanding a thing. Or maybe just utterly dishonest in discussing. I don't know, I don't care. But I do care about bullshit and those who just bullshit wasting my time.

 

[Tech_Esq]

I remember that many of Bush's attorney generals were tasked with finding information on ACORN to convict them and when they couldn't they were fired.

You mean Bush's US Attorneys. There is only one Attorney General. I listened to the hearings quite extensively and don't remember ACORN ever being mentioned in them. Most of the accusations were that instances of alleged political corruption involving Dem official was not prosecuted. I think there were maybe three or so instances of that amongst all of the US Attorneys and some of those allegations were pretty lame. But, I don't remember anything about ACORN.

Maybe you could give me a news report from then to refresh my recollection?

There were several, but here's a quick one.

In October 2008, a report by the Department of Justice's Inspector General found that Iglesias had been wrongfully dismissed because he had refused to pursue prosecutions against the Democrat-linked community organization ACORN and a prominent New Mexico Democrat. "The real reasons for Iglesias' removal were the complaints from New Mexico Republican politicians and party activists about how Iglesias handled voter fraud and public corruption cases in the state," the report says. The Inspector General's report says that Senator Domenici's complaints were the "primary" reason Iglesias was fired. [3]

David Iglesias (attorney) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From what I know of RICO, there must be organizational racketeering to bring charges. In the case of ACORN, there has never been anything to point to that.

Why do you think during that dark period when the Republicans were in total control of the country they didn't use RICO to bring down ACORN? Because they had nothing.

But this is way off topic from the OP.

OK, I'll give you that. I remember the lengthy back and forth about the appropriateness (or lack there of) of Dominici's contacts with Iglecias, but I didn't recall ACORN being the focus of his conversation. Probably because the Dems didn't want to say "ACORN" during the hearings.

Why didn't a Bush US Attorney bring RICO charges? Could be that they didn't have sufficient evidence at the time to support it. Don't know. Might have been that it wasn't high enough (at the Enterprise level) on the priority list to support the resources that would have been required to prosecute. RICO is resource intensive to prosecute.

I think you need to go back and read the US Attorney's piece again. That ACORN is an Enterprise for purposes of the statute is patent. Organizational racketeering is not a term of art. That's fuzzy talk. What racketeering is is defined in the statute. It means that individuals that are members of the "organization" or enterprise have committed at least two counts of the crimes listed as possible elements of a RICO claim. Among these are mail fraud and wire fraud.

It would have been practically impossible for ACORN to register 1.3 million new "voters" without using the mail or wires. Since we know 15 states investigated voter fraud by ACORN and several of those made convictions, we can safely assume that the lawyers can show how the mail and wires were used by ACORN members to prosecute their criminal enterprise.

Since RICO seeks to allow linkages between crimes at the organization level where normally it isn't possible when looking at individual crimes committed by individuals, the entire national organization would be implicated by the actions of those who committed the fraudulent acts (as long as two acts in 10 years can be proven).

So, even knowing only what we know to be true, we can can make out a pretty good prima facie case of RICO.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Has anyone,eve been convicted of a crime?

Yes someone has been convicted of a crime.

If you are talking about something specific, feel free to clarify your question.

 

[Ravi]

Techie...I don't understand why you claim mail or wire fraud. The way these things work is that ACORN hires people to attend events and ask people to hand fill out voter registrations...which they then turn in to ACORN and ACORN then delivers to the polling authority in question. No need for wire or mail.

I also fail to see how it is possible to charge someone simply because 2 or more employees committed the same crime. That would mean any employer at any time could be charged under RICO no matter what their knowledge of the crime. For instance, if two of my employees worked together to defraud someone...why would I be charged under RICO? That makes no sense. It also would tend to make employers more likely to cover up the crimes of their employees.

I found that someone in Ohio did bring a RICO suit against ACORN in 2004 and lost. They tried again in 2008 but I couldn't find the outcome of that suit.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Techie...I don't understand why you claim mail or wire fraud. The way these things work is that ACORN hires people to attend events and ask people to hand fill out voter registrations...which they then turn in to ACORN and ACORN then delivers to the polling authority in question. No need for wire or mail.

I also fail to see how it is possible to charge someone simply because 2 or more employees committed the same crime. That would mean any employer at any time could be charged under RICO no matter what their knowledge of the crime. For instance, if two of my employees worked together to defraud someone...why would I be charged under RICO? That makes no sense. It also would tend to make employers more likely to cover up the crimes of their employees.

I found that someone in Ohio did bring a RICO suit against ACORN in 2004 and lost. They tried again in 2008 but I couldn't find the outcome of that suit.

First, that's not the only way they go down. ACORN hires workers and they paid them $9/hr and tells them they need X number of registrants per day. They workers go out and procure them. As to mail and wire fraud, let's look at a hypothetical:

Worker A has been hired to get 26 registrants per day by ACORN and works for Manager Z as their direct supervisor. Manager Z is constantly on Worker A .....like all of Manager Z's registration workers to get those registrations in. Worker A at some point decides it's easier to falsify the election registrations rather than get legit ones. When Manager Z talks to Worker A and Worker A reports that they have 26 registrations, even though they are fraudulent registrations and tells Manager Z anything about them, Worker A commits wire fraud. It's an offense to improperly fill out election forms.

I don't know if it is true that 100% of all of these forms are hand delivered to ACORN. But assuming that they aren't then it's one count of mail fraud for every mailed fraudulent form. If that form is EVER mailed by ACORN it's one count of mail fraud. If Manager Z actually knows that any of the forms are fraudulent and and causes them to be submitted, any action, such as calling someone on the phone to pick the forms up, that causes those forms to be fraudulently submitted is wire fraud or just fraud.

If the management of ACORN knows that a certain percentage of the forms they will receive under the system they have set up will be fraudulent and they take no action to determine whether fraud is being committed by its workers, they'll be held to have had constructive knowledge of the fraud.

No, you probably wouldn't have an issue. The torts or crimes of an employee are generally not held against the employer. The exception is when the crimes are in furtherance of the employer's business (to the employer's benefit) or the employer turned a blind eye to what they reasonably should have known. (This is where plausible deniability can get you in trouble.)

 

[Ravi]

Here's the definition of wire fraud:

Legal Definition of Wire Fraud

I don't see how you are claiming any such action that you described fits within that definition.

Two things. One, ACORN, or any other entity that gets people to fill out voter's registration forms, IS REQUIRED BY LAW TO TURN THEM IN. They cannot go through the stacks and discard those they think are fraudulent. This may seem silly but it actually makes sense...otherwise they could throw away any that registered as a Republican, for instance.

Two. I know someone that worked for one of these groups before the last election. Not ACORN. Yes he was pressured to get so many filled out forms per day...he lasted about a week because he couldn't get as many as required. But nothing was done electronically or through the mail. Everything was handed in, in person. Cheaper that way.

 

[keee keee]

Once again the Obama Administration is linked to another corrupt, anti Ameican group. Time for some CHANGE and HOPE!!! I hope he gets some new friends which aren't crooks!!!!

 

[namvet]

that'll be the day

 

[LibocalypseNow]

This whole issue is just so sad. No "Community Organizer" group should receive American Tax Dollars. There are actually many other "Community Organizer" groups like ACORN currently receiving Tax Dollars. All of these groups are partisan Democratic Party front groups. They do not support any Republican candidates so why should all of us tax payers give them our money? It's just not right. They should immediately halt all tax funding for all of these "Community Organizer" groups. Anything less would be unacceptable. I do not support ACORN or any other of these groups and i do not want any more of my Tax Dollars going to them. End of story.

 

[The T]

This whole issue is just so sad. No "Community Organizer" group should receive American Tax Dollars. There are actually many other "Community Organizer" groups like ACORN currently receiving Tax Dollars. All of these groups are partisan Democratic Party front groups. They do not support any Republican candidates so why should all of us tax payers give them our money? It's just not right. They should immediately halt all tax funding for all of these "Community Organizer" groups. Anything less would be unacceptable. I do not support ACORN or any other of these groups and i do not want any more of my Tax Dollars going to them. End of story.

I do NOT agree with ANY group getting ANY Tax money regardless of party. Time this shit ended. It's turned into a partisan circus.

 

[DiveCon]

I read your link...not saying you are wrong, but it was a little over the top partisan for me to believe it.

Are you accusing a US Attorney of being partisan? Who are you Alberto Gonzales? US Attorneys play it down the middle. This is about enforcement of the rule of law not politics.

Don't you remember that from the summer of 2007?

I remember that many of Bush's attorney generals were tasked with finding information on ACORN to convict them and when they couldn't they were fired.

more lies

 

[The T]

Once again the Obama Administration is linked to another corrupt, anti Ameican group. Time for some CHANGE and HOPE!!! I hope he gets some new friends which aren't crooks!!!!

Sad thing is? Many of us knew these things when he started to run for POTUS. We tried to warn you all...and of course it was IGNORED largely because of BFS (Bush Fatique Syndrome), that was foisted relentlessly by the Left. And of course? The Media didn't DO their job, and Chris Matthews and the Media at large was still 'spurting" all over themselves after that "tingly" feeling...

 

[The T]

I read your link...not saying you are wrong, but it was a little over the top partisan for me to believe it.

Are you accusing a US Attorney of being partisan? Who are you Alberto Gonzales? US Attorneys play it down the middle. This is about enforcement of the rule of law not politics.

Don't you remember that from the summer of 2007?

I remember that many of Bush's attorney generals were tasked with finding information on ACORN to convict them and when they couldn't they were fired.

ACORN specifically, RAVIOLI? If you remember it so damned well? How about a LINK or two supporting what you just wrote here?

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Who doesn't know that all of these so-called "Community Organizer" groups are mere Democratic Party front groups? I would think this is pretty clear by now. So let George Soros and the Democrats pay for these groups. Why should all American Tax Payers be forced to pay for these groups?

 

[Si modo]

Who doesn't know that all of these so-called "Community Organizer" groups are mere Democratic Party front groups? I would think this is pretty clear by now. So let George Soros and the Democrats pay for these groups. Why should all American Tax Payers be forced to pay for these groups?

When the partisn rhetoric ame out during the election, their tax-exempt status whould have been immediately revoked. Yet nothing. Not only that, more money under grants for tax exempt organizations?

Nothing makes any sense.

 

[The T]

Who doesn't know that all of these so-called "Community Organizer" groups are mere Democratic Party front groups? I would think this is pretty clear by now. So let George Soros and the Democrats pay for these groups. Why should all American Tax Payers be forced to pay for these groups?

Exactly. This is a good post, andf I really want to know from our Liberal Statist brothers/sisters here WHY such institutions should garner our Money when it may work AGAINST the people, and more importantly their Liberty, and favor a Government Largess, that impedes or even STEALS Liberty from the people?

In other words? What I am asking here is for our Liberal Statist brethern to justify it.

 

[Ravi]

Are you accusing a US Attorney of being partisan? Who are you Alberto Gonzales? US Attorneys play it down the middle. This is about enforcement of the rule of law not politics.

Don't you remember that from the summer of 2007?

I remember that many of Bush's attorney generals were tasked with finding information on ACORN to convict them and when they couldn't they were fired.

ACORN specifically, RAVIOLI? If you remember it so damned well? How about a LINK or two supporting what you just wrote here?

Why don't you try reading the rest of the thread Mr. Hysteria?

 

[DiveCon]

I remember that many of Bush's attorney generals were tasked with finding information on ACORN to convict them and when they couldn't they were fired.

ACORN specifically, RAVIOLI? If you remember it so damned well? How about a LINK or two supporting what you just wrote here?

Why don't you try reading the rest of the thread Mr. Hysteria?

where did you post that link?
not in THIS thread

 

[Ame®icano]

The Congressional Research Service has analyzed the case law and other legal issues surrounding last week's ACORN ban passed in the House and found the measure could be interpreted as a "bill of attainder" and therefore unconstitutional, according to copy of the report obtained by Politico.

A bill of attainder – which is prohibited in Article 1 of the Constitution -- is a law targeted to hurt or help an individual. If a bill is regarded primarily as punitive, instead of being strictly regulatory, it could be interpreted as an attainder bill, according to legal experts.

House ACORN ban may be unconstitutional

So, the same Article 1 of the Constitution has different meaning for cutting funds for ACORN then for cutting bonuses for CEOs. Interesting.

Where is the same CRS to call on legality of Patriot Act or when Bush was conducting warrantless wiretaps of American citizens?