CDZ Abortion

[Thunderbird]

We have better birth control & more awareness. so abortions are down.

We can thank the wave of restrictions on abortion for reducing the number of abortions. Thousands of vulnerable lives have been saved!

Do laws seeking to reduce abortion rates work? According to one study, yes

The ultrasound machine has also helped. It's harder to kill an unborn baby after you seen her squirming around in her mother's womb.

 

[sakinago]

Abortion has been legal in the US since 1973. That's 40+ years.

1- Will Roe v Wade ever be reversed? A conservative majority on the SC has not managed to achieve this goal for the pro-life cause. What could make a reversion to pre-1973 law a reality?

2- What would banning abortion achieve? One of the most compelling arguments for legalization was that abortion was going to be available whether we legalized it or not. Would we revert to that condition, where back alley abortion clinics and the ever present coat hangers will start to fill the roles carried out currently by abortion clinics and doctors? Should we be more Draconican, with mass incarcerations of both abortion providers and the women who seek to kill their babies? Can we make abortion impossible?

3- Whether you are pro-choice or pro-life, are you capable of understanding and respecting the POV of those who hold the opposite position?

Your first 2 points do not deal in the philosophy/morality of abortion. The first seems to deal in the practicality of reversing roe v wade, the 2nd is a pretty basic strawman argument stating that if abortion is illegal, get ready for coat hanger abortions left and right. Not to mention, your language shows a very strong bias with words like “draconian”. Bias is what it is, but I would suggest that this language points to the fact that you do not actually think about this issue.

Where the debate on abortion should start is “what constitutes life, and why.” All other point are secondary to this since according to DOI governments role is to protect life. Anything else is a red herring. So let’s start with.....What constitutes life and why?

 

[sakinago]

Conservatives think fetuses are fully formed human beings like the king cake baby. When in reality a fetus is in the palm of a hand.

At what point did this become a discussion about size? Is size really all that relevant?

I’ll answer that for you, size is a red herring. What is life and why?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Artificial assignment for a moment when 'life' begins ignores scientific facts.
Life began eons ago.
DNA is virtually immortal.
Giving birth is giving death.
People make decisions of life and death all the time, yet we do not have a thorough understanding of what either is.
An egg is a living element. A woman who ovulates each month essentially makes a decision whether the egg will be fertilized or not.

Yes we know human life has no meaning or value for nihilists, tht's just a given. You surely shouldn't mind if somebody found you to be utterly useless and exterminate you based on their personal opinion of your value then, right? We don't really need any laws against murder, as long as somebody can dream up all kinds of stupid hand waves to excuse it.

Hyperbolic nonsense.

The issue has nothing to do with murder or criminal law.

The issue concerns solely the limitations the Constitution places on government with regard to the privacy rights of individuals – that government cannot dictate to individuals how they’ll conduct their private lives, such as the state seeking to compel a woman to give birth against her will.

The right to privacy ensures that every individual is at liberty to decide for himself the issue in accordance with his own good faith and good conscience without interference from the state.

Conservatives supposedly believe in limited government, clearly they don’t.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Abortion has been legal in the US since 1973. That's 40+ years.

1- Will Roe v Wade ever be reversed? A conservative majority on the SC has not managed to achieve this goal for the pro-life cause. What could make a reversion to pre-1973 law a reality?

2- What would banning abortion achieve? One of the most compelling arguments for legalization was that abortion was going to be available whether we legalized it or not. Would we revert to that condition, where back alley abortion clinics and the ever present coat hangers will start to fill the roles carried out currently by abortion clinics and doctors? Should we be more Draconican, with mass incarcerations of both abortion providers and the women who seek to kill their babies? Can we make abortion impossible?

3- Whether you are pro-choice or pro-life, are you capable of understanding and respecting the POV of those who hold the opposite position?

There is nothing in the Constitution of the US that mentions women.

Ergo abortion is a state issue.

And Roe V Wade is bad law.

Wrong.

The Constitution clearly recognizes a right to privacy and prohibits the state from seeking to violate that right to privacy.

Moreover, Roe isn’t a ‘law,’ it’s a Supreme Court decision, the progeny of Griswold v. Connecticut and Eisenstadt v. Baird. In Eisenstadt the Supreme Court held that "f the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child."

A bad law would be a measure seeking to compel a woman to give birth against her will, in violation of the Constitution.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Abortion has been legal in the US since 1973. That's 40+ years.

1- Will Roe v Wade ever be reversed? A conservative majority on the SC has not managed to achieve this goal for the pro-life cause. What could make a reversion to pre-1973 law a reality?

2- What would banning abortion achieve? One of the most compelling arguments for legalization was that abortion was going to be available whether we legalized it or not. Would we revert to that condition, where back alley abortion clinics and the ever present coat hangers will start to fill the roles carried out currently by abortion clinics and doctors? Should we be more Draconican, with mass incarcerations of both abortion providers and the women who seek to kill their babies? Can we make abortion impossible?

3- Whether you are pro-choice or pro-life, are you capable of understanding and respecting the POV of those who hold the opposite position?

Your first 2 points do not deal in the philosophy/morality of abortion. The first seems to deal in the practicality of reversing roe v wade, the 2nd is a pretty basic strawman argument stating that if abortion is illegal, get ready for coat hanger abortions left and right. Not to mention, your language shows a very strong bias with words like “draconian”. Bias is what it is, but I would suggest that this language points to the fact that you do not actually think about this issue.

Where the debate on abortion should start is “what constitutes life, and why.” All other point are secondary to this since according to DOI governments role is to protect life. Anything else is a red herring. So let’s start with.....What constitutes life and why?

That’s a question and debate the purview of religion and philosophy.

The right to privacy allows that question to be asked and that such a debate might take place without government interference.

Better yet, pursue that debate with the intent of finding a solution to the problem of abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

 

[SaxxyBlues]

Why is abortion looked at as murder, and having to search for the meaning of life? For the largest part it is population control. We as humans help control animal populations.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Anyone who equates abortion with ‘murder’ only exhibits himself to be ignorant of the law; or such a person is nothing more than a dishonest demagogue.

The right to privacy concerns civil law in the context of substantive due process, pursuant to 14th Amendment jurisprudence.

Murder concerns criminal law, the taking of a life entitled to Constitutional protections, having nothing whatsoever to do with abortion.

 

[sakinago]

Abortion has been legal in the US since 1973. That's 40+ years.

1- Will Roe v Wade ever be reversed? A conservative majority on the SC has not managed to achieve this goal for the pro-life cause. What could make a reversion to pre-1973 law a reality?

2- What would banning abortion achieve? One of the most compelling arguments for legalization was that abortion was going to be available whether we legalized it or not. Would we revert to that condition, where back alley abortion clinics and the ever present coat hangers will start to fill the roles carried out currently by abortion clinics and doctors? Should we be more Draconican, with mass incarcerations of both abortion providers and the women who seek to kill their babies? Can we make abortion impossible?

3- Whether you are pro-choice or pro-life, are you capable of understanding and respecting the POV of those who hold the opposite position?

Your first 2 points do not deal in the philosophy/morality of abortion. The first seems to deal in the practicality of reversing roe v wade, the 2nd is a pretty basic strawman argument stating that if abortion is illegal, get ready for coat hanger abortions left and right. Not to mention, your language shows a very strong bias with words like “draconian”. Bias is what it is, but I would suggest that this language points to the fact that you do not actually think about this issue.

Where the debate on abortion should start is “what constitutes life, and why.” All other point are secondary to this since according to DOI governments role is to protect life. Anything else is a red herring. So let’s start with.....What constitutes life and why?

That’s a question and debate the purview of religion and philosophy.

The right to privacy allows that question to be asked and that such a debate might take place without government interference.

Better yet, pursue that debate with the intent of finding a solution to the problem of abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

Just because religious people tend to be pro choice, doesn’t mean it’s a religious issue. The main question on abortion is when does life begin and why. Anything else is secondary...including case law, which is ALWAYS changing since laws are always changing. Case law is a useless debate in matters that are based in philosophy, biology, etc.

You avoided the question, if right to privacy is in play like you claim it to be, then it should be in play up until birth, should it not?

 

[SaxxyBlues]

Catholic Nun Sister Joan Chittister O.S.B. stated: "I do not believe that just because you're opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is."

 

[sakinago]

Why is abortion looked at as murder, and having to search for the meaning of life? For the largest part it is population control. We as humans help control animal populations.

Because probably a very large majority of humans consider humans to have greater worth than animals. And most agree that culling human populations is wrong, vs an invasive species like wild pigs that will wipe out an environment because they don’t know how to refrigerate, farm, store food, clean water, etc. The other issue is why do we need population control, we have the biggest population of humans ever yet obesity is now a bigger problem than starvation. As a matter of fact there is no reason for starvation to happen other than incompetent or corrupt governments. More than enough food to go around. 30 years ago some 90% of humans lived in extreme poverty, now that number is only 10%, that’s a pretty wild swing and what it tells you is that the whole limited resources vs population growth is a myth (and has been a myth since this theory has been around for some 400 years at least and keeps getting recycled).

Population control isn’t even a real factor in 1st world countries anyway since population growth slows down with development. So what are you going to do, tell poor 3rd world countries to stop having kids, might as well throw up a hitler salute while you’re at it.

This point is a red herring anyway. Still does not address the issue of when does life begin and why?

 

[sakinago]

Catholic Nun Sister Joan Chittister O.S.B. stated: "I do not believe that just because you're opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is."

I suppose this would be relevant if there are a bunch of pro-lifers who want babies to be born, and then starve to death on the streets, I don’t think that is the case. Start making adult arguments.

 

[Picaro]

Yes, inside it's not viable outside it is. Again i would have to ask you to define life. Are you talking when they draw their first breath? You think abortion is simple? Have you heard of pimps, and wife beaters, and alcoholic fathers. If abortion stops what are your plans for a million plus children a year. I think until quickening it's ok to abort. That is usually enough time to make a decision and make arrangements. And of course there is always exceptions. I think a lot of your problem is that you are into male dominence and you feel that control over women fading and you can't take it.

First of all, it's the abortion fan club that has to make their case, not the other way around, and second, you've already anounced there is no genuine reason not to kill anybody for any reason, based on your own 'logic'. You already reached ' I Don't Have Jack Here, But I'm Going To Keep Posting Last Anyway!!!!' stage several posts ago.

You can't think of any real reason why you shouldn't be killed for merely being annoying by anybody you annoy. I agree.

 

[SaxxyBlues]

Yes, inside it's not viable outside it is. Again i would have to ask you to define life. Are you talking when they draw their first breath? You think abortion is simple? Have you heard of pimps, and wife beaters, and alcoholic fathers. If abortion stops what are your plans for a million plus children a year. I think until quickening it's ok to abort. That is usually enough time to make a decision and make arrangements. And of course there is always exceptions. I think a lot of your problem is that you are into male dominence and you feel that control over women fading and you can't take it.

First of all, it's the abortion fan club that has to make their case, not the other way around, and second, you've already anounced there is no genuine reason not to kill anybody for any reason, based on your own 'logic'. You already reached ' I Don't Have Jack Here, But I'm Going To Keep Posting Last Anyway!!!!' stage several posts ago.

You can't think of any real reason why you shouldn't be killed for merely being annoying by anybody you annoy. I agree.

That's so short sighted and stupid. Let me hear you talk about the sanctity of life and how you value it.

 

[SaxxyBlues]

Think I'll go down to the reproductive clinic and let people know to stop off and ask you before they make a decision.

 

[Picaro]

Yes, inside it's not viable outside it is. Again i would have to ask you to define life. Are you talking when they draw their first breath? You think abortion is simple? Have you heard of pimps, and wife beaters, and alcoholic fathers. If abortion stops what are your plans for a million plus children a year. I think until quickening it's ok to abort. That is usually enough time to make a decision and make arrangements. And of course there is always exceptions. I think a lot of your problem is that you are into male dominence and you feel that control over women fading and you can't take it.

First of all, it's the abortion fan club that has to make their case, not the other way around, and second, you've already anounced there is no genuine reason not to kill anybody for any reason, based on your own 'logic'. You already reached ' I Don't Have Jack Here, But I'm Going To Keep Posting Last Anyway!!!!' stage several posts ago.

You can't think of any real reason why you shouldn't be killed for merely being annoying by anybody you annoy. I agree.

 

[Picaro]

Why is abortion looked at as murder, and having to search for the meaning of life? For the largest part it is population control. We as humans help control animal populations.

Because probably a very large majority of humans consider humans to have greater worth than animals. And most agree that culling human populations is wrong, vs an invasive species like wild pigs that will wipe out an environment because they don’t know how to refrigerate, farm, store food, clean water, etc. The other issue is why do we need population control, we have the biggest population of humans ever yet obesity is now a bigger problem than starvation. As a matter of fact there is no reason for starvation to happen other than incompetent or corrupt governments. More than enough food to go around. 30 years ago some 90% of humans lived in extreme poverty, now that number is only 10%, that’s a pretty wild swing and what it tells you is that the whole limited resources vs population growth is a myth (and has been a myth since this theory has been around for some 400 years at least and keeps getting recycled).

Population control isn’t even a real factor in 1st world countries anyway since population growth slows down with development. So what are you going to do, tell poor 3rd world countries to stop having kids, might as well throw up a hitler salute while you’re at it.

This point is a red herring anyway. Still does not address the issue of when does life begin and why?

It's a desensitization process; if one can kill babies for the horrible crime of inconvenience, in an era when it's impossible to get pregnant in the first place 'accidently', birth control available in every convenience store, usually with a short drive of nearly everyone in the U.S., and most people knowing exactly 'where babies come from' from very earl ages, you're left with a mere lack of self-control and and a mindless belief in no consequences for choices, or you're left with rape medical issues, and no controls over those. Liberals think the latter should have the option for an abortion, sociopaths think life for themselves should be stress free and murder is just fine if keeps them from being inconvenienced. They have the same 'logic' as the Nazis who thought shoving unviable people into ovens was fine, as did Stalin and Mao and many many others.

These abprtion pimps also the same deviants who think extreme sexual mutilation is a choice for the mentally ill and just fine, and they think sexual fetishes are matters of Constitutional law, so let's just admit these sociopathic gimps have less than zero cred on any topic, much less one involving human life, basic empathy for human life unable to protect itself from murdering predators, morals, or anything else to do with social acceptability, culture, or morals. They're also clueless if they think it's 'just about those religious creeps who don't want us to have any fun n stuff." It's all about fashion for these freak shows, and nothing else.

 

[Picaro]

Yes, inside it's not viable outside it is. Again i would have to ask you to define life. Are you talking when they draw their first breath? You think abortion is simple? Have you heard of pimps, and wife beaters, and alcoholic fathers. If abortion stops what are your plans for a million plus children a year. I think until quickening it's ok to abort. That is usually enough time to make a decision and make arrangements. And of course there is always exceptions. I think a lot of your problem is that you are into male dominence and you feel that control over women fading and you can't take it.

First of all, it's the abortion fan club that has to make their case, not the other way around, and second, you've already anounced there is no genuine reason not to kill anybody for any reason, based on your own 'logic'. You already reached ' I Don't Have Jack Here, But I'm Going To Keep Posting Last Anyway!!!!' stage several posts ago.

You can't think of any real reason why you shouldn't be killed for merely being annoying by anybody you annoy. I agree.

That's so short sighted and stupid. Let me hear you talk about the sanctity of life and how you value it.

How about you answer the questions and stop dodging the real issues? Yes, We know you're incapable of that, so we'll just watch you squirm and laugh at you instead.

 

[Picaro]

Why is abortion looked at as murder, and having to search for the meaning of life? For the largest part it is population control. We as humans help control animal populations.

Because probably a very large majority of humans consider humans to have greater worth than animals. And most agree that culling human populations is wrong, vs an invasive species like wild pigs that will wipe out an environment because they don’t know how to refrigerate, farm, store food, clean water, etc. The other issue is why do we need population control, we have the biggest population of humans ever yet obesity is now a bigger problem than starvation. As a matter of fact there is no reason for starvation to happen other than incompetent or corrupt governments. More than enough food to go around. 30 years ago some 90% of humans lived in extreme poverty, now that number is only 10%, that’s a pretty wild swing and what it tells you is that the whole limited resources vs population growth is a myth (and has been a myth since this theory has been around for some 400 years at least and keeps getting recycled).

Population control isn’t even a real factor in 1st world countries anyway since population growth slows down with development. So what are you going to do, tell poor 3rd world countries to stop having kids, might as well throw up a hitler salute while you’re at it.

This point is a red herring anyway. Still does not address the issue of when does life begin and why?

How about something a whole easier and practical, like teaching people to merely exercise basic self-control and just not indulge in risky behavior? It's not like there aren't many alternatives to getting knocked up, after all.

 

[SaxxyBlues]

Sounds like you got it all wrapped up Picaro. Now let's see you stop abortion. Your examples and analysis reap you no returns. Must be faulty. Is that correct or you got some more analysis?