CDZ Abortion: Moral or Immoral

[ABikerSailor]

You know, it's really hard to label something as "moral" or "immoral". Why? Because everyone has a different belief system, and morals vary quite a bit from system to system, and culture to culture.

A really easy one, comparing Americans to Europeans. In America, it is considered "immoral" for a woman to walk down a beach topless. A lot of them think that the woman is "loose" or "immoral" for public nudity, even though guys walk around on beaches topless regularly.

However..................

In Europe, there is nothing immoral about a woman walking around topless. Matter of fact, damn near every beach that I've been to over in the Med and in South America is topless, and most women don't wear them. The Europeans don't have any hang ups about public nudity.

The word 'immoral' can only be defined by a population within a culture that agrees on a certain moral code. Taking your example, Europeans judging Americans and Americans judging Europeans each have no moral standing to judge the other. Yet you somehow call the American view a 'hang up." Why is that?

As far as abortion? Well, my belief is that a baby isn't really "alive" until it draws it's first breath. In the Bible, it states that Adam and Eve weren't really alive until God breathed the breath of Life into them, so, I'll take God's example for when a human is "alive".

And..............when you stop breathing, you no longer are alive.

Well...That is what you believe and it is considered immoral by many who do not share your view of morality within the American culture.

The reason I called the American view a "hang up" is because over in Europe, it doesn't matter if you are wearing a top or not. Doesn't matter either way, because both are acceptable.

However...................if a woman takes off her top on a public beach here in America, she can be arrested for indecent exposure, as well as get a lot of rude comments from others about how "trashy" and "whorish" she is.

You'd also have a lot of mothers covering the eyes of their young sons and yelling at the woman.

THAT is why I said the American view is hung up.

 

[MarkDuffy]

oh, so what they say matters now? Lol
Really, who gives a crap what they think? Neither one of us do. For some reason, you are willing to throw away integrity for the sake of argument?
Organisms REQUIRE homeostasis to live. What part about that is not agreed upon in the science community? I would love to know. Politicians dont count

If you can prove that a child in the womb is Not even an organism. . . Why are you not selling you expert testimony to those already doing time for MURDER for killing "children in the womb?"

Abortion is not murder. It is justified homicide in self-defense. You conservatives would flip on the issue if a woman used a gun.

You saying it is not murder is pointless.

Who gives a damn what you think?

You gonna start calling miscarriages murder too? Claim that the mother didn't properly take care of the fetus in utero?

It takes more than even a strong suspicion to warrant a MURDER charge for a failed pregnancy. Same as it is with any other MURDER charge. The burden of proof is very high.

I accept your surrender on your abortion is murder claim.

 

[MarkDuffy]

What is MURDER?
The crime committed where a person of sound mind and discretion (that is, of sufficient age to form and execute a criminal design and not legally “insane”) kills any human creature in being (excluding quick but unborn children) and in the peace of the state or nation (including all persons except the military forces of the public enemy in time of war or battle) without any warrant, justification, or excuse in law. with malice aforethought, express or implied, that is, with a deliberate purpose or a design or determination distinctly formed in the mind before the commission of the act, provided that death results from the injury Inflicted within one year and a day after its infliction.

Law Dictionary: What is MURDER? definition of MURDER (Black's Law Dictionary)

 

[Chuz Life]

It would be helpful if conservatives were actually the "Pro-Life" you all claim.

Conservatives help the child after birth ~ Hell no
Help with contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies ~ Hell no
Adopt babies ~ Hell No
Approve welfare for single moms ~ Hell no
The very short list.

We have a new one in this thread and you all agree. Not one of you came out approving the law that the murder of pregnant women should be a higher crime than just a single murder.

You should be ashamed of yourselves

I'm independent. And I wouldn't have any issues with helping the mother or the child after birth. Or contraceptives, or adoption, etc.

Same here. . . But good luck getting any of the abortion proponents to give that any real consideration.

 

[Chuz Life]

If you can prove that a child in the womb is Not even an organism. . . Why are you not selling you expert testimony to those already doing time for MURDER for killing "children in the womb?"

Abortion is not murder. It is justified homicide in self-defense. You conservatives would flip on the issue if a woman used a gun.

You saying it is not murder is pointless.

Who gives a damn what you think?

You gonna start calling miscarriages murder too? Claim that the mother didn't properly take care of the fetus in utero?

It takes more than even a strong suspicion to warrant a MURDER charge for a failed pregnancy. Same as it is with any other MURDER charge. The burden of proof is very high.

I accept your surrender on your abortion is murder claim.

Wishful thinking much?

 

[MarkDuffy]

You know, it's really hard to label something as "moral" or "immoral". Why? Because everyone has a different belief system, and morals vary quite a bit from system to system, and culture to culture.

A really easy one, comparing Americans to Europeans. In America, it is considered "immoral" for a woman to walk down a beach topless. A lot of them think that the woman is "loose" or "immoral" for public nudity, even though guys walk around on beaches topless regularly.

However..................

In Europe, there is nothing immoral about a woman walking around topless. Matter of fact, damn near every beach that I've been to over in the Med and in South America is topless, and most women don't wear them. The Europeans don't have any hang ups about public nudity.

The word 'immoral' can only be defined by a population within a culture that agrees on a certain moral code. Taking your example, Europeans judging Americans and Americans judging Europeans each have no moral standing to judge the other. Yet you somehow call the American view a 'hang up." Why is that?

As far as abortion? Well, my belief is that a baby isn't really "alive" until it draws it's first breath. In the Bible, it states that Adam and Eve weren't really alive until God breathed the breath of Life into them, so, I'll take God's example for when a human is "alive".

And..............when you stop breathing, you no longer are alive.

Well...That is what you believe and it is considered immoral by many who do not share your view of morality within the American culture.

The reason I called the American view a "hang up" is because over in Europe, it doesn't matter if you are wearing a top or not. Doesn't matter either way, because both are acceptable.

However...................if a woman takes off her top on a public beach here in America, she can be arrested for indecent exposure, as well as get a lot of rude comments from others about how "trashy" and "whorish" she is.

You'd also have a lot of mothers covering the eyes of their young sons and yelling at the woman.

THAT is why I said the American view is hung up.

Stone knives and bearskins, actually

 

[MarkDuffy]

Abortion is not murder. It is justified homicide in self-defense. You conservatives would flip on the issue if a woman used a gun.

You saying it is not murder is pointless.

Who gives a damn what you think?

You gonna start calling miscarriages murder too? Claim that the mother didn't properly take care of the fetus in utero?

It takes more than even a strong suspicion to warrant a MURDER charge for a failed pregnancy. Same as it is with any other MURDER charge. The burden of proof is very high.

I accept your surrender on your abortion is murder claim.

Wishful thinking much?

The burden of proof is very high.

Your words, correct?

 

[Chuz Life]

You saying it is not murder is pointless.

Who gives a damn what you think?

You gonna start calling miscarriages murder too? Claim that the mother didn't properly take care of the fetus in utero?

It takes more than even a strong suspicion to warrant a MURDER charge for a failed pregnancy. Same as it is with any other MURDER charge. The burden of proof is very high.

I accept your surrender on your abortion is murder claim.

Wishful thinking much?

The burden of proof is very high.

Your words, correct?

And. . . You read that as a complete surrender of the issue?

 

[Ace Nova]

You saying it is not murder is pointless.

Who gives a damn what you think?

You gonna start calling miscarriages murder too? Claim that the mother didn't properly take care of the fetus in utero?

It takes more than even a strong suspicion to warrant a MURDER charge for a failed pregnancy. Same as it is with any other MURDER charge. The burden of proof is very high.

I accept your surrender on your abortion is murder claim.

Wishful thinking much?

The burden of proof is very high.

Your words, correct?

"Burden of proof" is used in civil cases. In criminal cases, the accused must be found guilty "beyond any reasonable doubt". So that would apply in any criminal murder case...including a double homicide case when the accused is standing trial for killing a woman and her unborn baby.

 

[MarkDuffy]

You gonna start calling miscarriages murder too? Claim that the mother didn't properly take care of the fetus in utero?

It takes more than even a strong suspicion to warrant a MURDER charge for a failed pregnancy. Same as it is with any other MURDER charge. The burden of proof is very high.

I accept your surrender on your abortion is murder claim.

Wishful thinking much?

The burden of proof is very high.

Your words, correct?

And. . . You read that as a complete surrender of the issue?

Did I say complete?

LOL, Your forum name, the avatar picture? You cannot even see the top of the rabbit hole you fell into.

 

[Chuz Life]

What is MURDER?
The crime committed where a person of sound mind and discretion (that is, of sufficient age to form and execute a criminal design and not legally “insane”) kills any human creature in being (excluding quick but unborn children) and in the peace of the state or nation (including all persons except the military forces of the public enemy in time of war or battle) without any warrant, justification, or excuse in law. with malice aforethought, express or implied, that is, with a deliberate purpose or a design or determination distinctly formed in the mind before the commission of the act, provided that death results from the injury Inflicted within one year and a day after its infliction.

Law Dictionary: What is MURDER? definition of MURDER (Black's Law Dictionary)

Which carries more weight in an accounting of facts? A cherry picked legal dictionary that takes and sometimes has to modify it's definitions as laws change? Or the actual legal definitions contained in the laws themselves?

 

[PredFan]

The fact that abortion kills a human child.

What facts are there that say whether a fetus is a human?
It doesnt meet the criteria for a living organism or human.

Science says so. The fact that if left alone, a human being is born.

science says what? Pretty sure science says its both ways because its SUBJECTIVE. They can NOT agree on whether a fetus is a human "life" or not. Possibly because it doesnt meet criteria for life.

Garbage. There isn't one single biologist or scientist who is involved in the human body in any way who will deny that if left alone, a human fetus will become a human being. Not one. They will confirm positively that a human fetus has human DNA. The fact that it cannot live outside the mother for at least 28 weeks is irrelevant.

of course it will become a human being. I was referring to basic biology... I was referring to what i said.

It doesnt meet the criteria for a living organism or human

Ok then what you are saying is irrelevant then. We are talking about the "fact" that if left alone, it will be a human.

 

[Chuz Life]

It takes more than even a strong suspicion to warrant a MURDER charge for a failed pregnancy. Same as it is with any other MURDER charge. The burden of proof is very high.

I accept your surrender on your abortion is murder claim.

Wishful thinking much?

The burden of proof is very high.

Your words, correct?

And. . . You read that as a complete surrender of the issue?

Did I say complete?

LOL, Your forum name, the avatar picture? You cannot even see the top of the rabbit hole you fell into.

The whole is in your imagination only. A MURDER is a MURDER in ANY form or situation. . . Despite the fact that there is always a significant burden of proof placed on those making the charge.

 

[MarkDuffy]

What is MURDER?
The crime committed where a person of sound mind and discretion (that is, of sufficient age to form and execute a criminal design and not legally “insane”) kills any human creature in being (excluding quick but unborn children) and in the peace of the state or nation (including all persons except the military forces of the public enemy in time of war or battle) without any warrant, justification, or excuse in law. with malice aforethought, express or implied, that is, with a deliberate purpose or a design or determination distinctly formed in the mind before the commission of the act, provided that death results from the injury Inflicted within one year and a day after its infliction.

Law Dictionary: What is MURDER? definition of MURDER (Black's Law Dictionary)

Which carries more weight in an accounting of facts? A cherry picked legal dictionary that takes and sometimes has to modify it's definitions as laws change? Or the actual legal definitions contained in the laws themselves?

You just posted static. Make your case, counselor

 

[Chuz Life]

What facts are there that say whether a fetus is a human?
It doesnt meet the criteria for a living organism or human.

Science says so. The fact that if left alone, a human being is born.

science says what? Pretty sure science says its both ways because its SUBJECTIVE. They can NOT agree on whether a fetus is a human "life" or not. Possibly because it doesnt meet criteria for life.

Garbage. There isn't one single biologist or scientist who is involved in the human body in any way who will deny that if left alone, a human fetus will become a human being. Not one. They will confirm positively that a human fetus has human DNA. The fact that it cannot live outside the mother for at least 28 weeks is irrelevant.

of course it will become a human being. I was referring to basic biology... I was referring to what i said.

It doesnt meet the criteria for a living organism or human

Ok then what you are saying is irrelevant then. We are talking about the "fact" that if left alone, it will be a human.

It already IS a human.

Isn't it?

 

[Chuz Life]

What is MURDER?
The crime committed where a person of sound mind and discretion (that is, of sufficient age to form and execute a criminal design and not legally “insane”) kills any human creature in being (excluding quick but unborn children) and in the peace of the state or nation (including all persons except the military forces of the public enemy in time of war or battle) without any warrant, justification, or excuse in law. with malice aforethought, express or implied, that is, with a deliberate purpose or a design or determination distinctly formed in the mind before the commission of the act, provided that death results from the injury Inflicted within one year and a day after its infliction.

Law Dictionary: What is MURDER? definition of MURDER (Black's Law Dictionary)

Which carries more weight in an accounting of facts? A cherry picked legal dictionary that takes and sometimes has to modify it's definitions as laws change? Or the actual legal definitions contained in the laws themselves?

You just posted static. Make your case, counselor

Where do legal dictionaries get their definitions from?

 

[MarkDuffy]

What facts are there that say whether a fetus is a human?
It doesnt meet the criteria for a living organism or human.

Science says so. The fact that if left alone, a human being is born.

science says what? Pretty sure science says its both ways because its SUBJECTIVE. They can NOT agree on whether a fetus is a human "life" or not. Possibly because it doesnt meet criteria for life.

Garbage. There isn't one single biologist or scientist who is involved in the human body in any way who will deny that if left alone, a human fetus will become a human being. Not one. They will confirm positively that a human fetus has human DNA. The fact that it cannot live outside the mother for at least 28 weeks is irrelevant.

of course it will become a human being. I was referring to basic biology... I was referring to what i said.

It doesnt meet the criteria for a living organism or human

Ok then what you are saying is irrelevant then. We are talking about the "fact" that if left alone, it will be a human.

If left alone, it will die.

If you are going to be anal, YOU be careful with your words.

 

[PredFan]

The fact that abortion kills a human child.

What facts are there that say whether a fetus is a human?
It doesnt meet the criteria for a living organism or human.

Science says so. The fact that if left alone, a human being is born.

science says what? Pretty sure science says its both ways because its SUBJECTIVE. They can NOT agree on whether a fetus is a human "life" or not. Possibly because it doesnt meet criteria for life.

Garbage. There isn't one single biologist or scientist who is involved in the human body in any way who will deny that if left alone, a human fetus will become a human being. Not one. They will confirm positively that a human fetus has human DNA. The fact that it cannot live outside the mother for at least 28 weeks is irrelevant.

I have to disagree with you just a little when you say that a child in the fetal stage of their life (if left alone) "will become" a human being.

They already ARE one and even our fetal Homicide laws already define and recognize them as such.

I agree but I was trying to make him understand and didn't want to bog down in that argument.

 

[MarkDuffy]

You gonna start calling miscarriages murder too? Claim that the mother didn't properly take care of the fetus in utero?

It takes more than even a strong suspicion to warrant a MURDER charge for a failed pregnancy. Same as it is with any other MURDER charge. The burden of proof is very high.

I accept your surrender on your abortion is murder claim.

Wishful thinking much?

The burden of proof is very high.

Your words, correct?

"Burden of proof" is used in civil cases. In criminal cases, the accused must be found guilty "beyond any reasonable doubt". So that would apply in any criminal murder case...including a double homicide case when the accused is standing trial for killing a woman and her unborn baby.

Your post should be directed at Chuz Life. They are his words

 

[Chuz Life]

What facts are there that say whether a fetus is a human?
It doesnt meet the criteria for a living organism or human.

Science says so. The fact that if left alone, a human being is born.

science says what? Pretty sure science says its both ways because its SUBJECTIVE. They can NOT agree on whether a fetus is a human "life" or not. Possibly because it doesnt meet criteria for life.

Garbage. There isn't one single biologist or scientist who is involved in the human body in any way who will deny that if left alone, a human fetus will become a human being. Not one. They will confirm positively that a human fetus has human DNA. The fact that it cannot live outside the mother for at least 28 weeks is irrelevant.

I have to disagree with you just a little when you say that a child in the fetal stage of their life (if left alone) "will become" a human being.

They already ARE one and even our fetal Homicide laws already define and recognize them as such.

I agree but I was trying to make him understand and didn't want to bog down in that argument.

Ok.

Sorry to butt in then