CDZ Abortion: Moral or Immoral

[Votto]

Science says so. The fact that if left alone, a human being is born.

science says what? Pretty sure science says its both ways because its SUBJECTIVE. They can NOT agree on whether a fetus is a human "life" or not. Possibly because it doesnt meet criteria for life.

Science can't even come to a consensus on what the definition of life is. Science also believes that life just spontaneously appeared from nonlife, something that can't be observed or duplicated, yet they claim it's science.

Fair enough

How is that fair?

We have the blind leading the blind.

Science cant even come to an agreement of what life is. I am fine with that if that is your argument

Why then do we allow abortions if not even science knows?

 

[MarkDuffy]

Science can't even come to a consensus on what the definition of life is. Science also believes that life just spontaneously appeared from nonlife, something that can't be observed or duplicated, yet they claim it's science.

Yet we somehow manage to define it well enough to enact laws against murder. Even fetal HOMICIDE laws!

Imagine that.

because congress critters are intelligent scientists! GENIUS
Webster would be so jellies

Your claim that a human being in the zygote, embryo or fetal stage of their life is not even an organism is destroyed by the fact that even Planned Parenthood says they are.

oh, so what they say matters now? Lol
Really, who gives a crap what they think? Neither one of us do. For some reason, you are willing to throw away integrity for the sake of argument?
Organisms REQUIRE homeostasis to live. What part about that is not agreed upon in the science community? I would love to know. Politicians dont count

If you can prove that a child in the womb is Not even an organism. . . Why are you not selling you expert testimony to those already doing time for MURDER for killing "children in the womb?"

Abortion is not murder. It is justified homicide in self-defense. You conservatives would flip on the issue if a woman used a gun.

 

[Votto]

Yet we somehow manage to define it well enough to enact laws against murder. Even fetal HOMICIDE laws!

Imagine that.

because congress critters are intelligent scientists! GENIUS
Webster would be so jellies

Your claim that a human being in the zygote, embryo or fetal stage of their life is not even an organism is destroyed by the fact that even Planned Parenthood says they are.

oh, so what they say matters now? Lol
Really, who gives a crap what they think? Neither one of us do. For some reason, you are willing to throw away integrity for the sake of argument?
Organisms REQUIRE homeostasis to live. What part about that is not agreed upon in the science community? I would love to know. Politicians dont count

If you can prove that a child in the womb is Not even an organism. . . Why are you not selling you expert testimony to those already doing time for MURDER for killing "children in the womb?"

Abortion is not murder. It is justified homicide in self-defense. You conservatives would flip on the issue if a woman used a gun.

You saying it is not murder is pointless.

Who gives a damn what you think?

 

[Ace Nova]

The one thing that boggles my mind about abortion laws is that if a pregnant woman is murdered and both she and the unborn baby dies, the person that commits the murder can be charged with two homicides. Very progressive states(like California) have found people guilty of double homicides in cases like this.

How can a state like California insist that it's just a fetus in cases of abortion but state that it's an "unborn baby" in cases of homicide??

Easy, only a Mother can choose to abort her child. No one else.

So a mother has a right to murder her child?

 

[2aguy]

What's you position, and why?

The only time an abortion is moral is if the woman and baby will die if she brings the baby to term. Then, the abortion is an attempt to save a life.......it is triage vs. murder. Any other abortion is immoral.

 

[OldLady]

Using standard definitions, socially 'moral' in the legal sense - personally immoral. It is a barbaric medical procedure that dehumanizes the 'victim', much as slavery did, a tactic used by most of the worlds cruelest tyrants to justify mass murder and genocide.

Pregnancy - easiest of all STD's to avoid.

What is barbaric is controlling our reproduction, what we allow to happen with our bodies. No one is saying you HAVE TO terminate an unwanted pregnancy if you don't believe in it. However, no one should be able to tell a woman that she MUST reproduce. The current relaxing of employers' duty to provide birth control coverage and the targeted attacks against Planned Parenthood are a double attack on women's right to choose.
Women know if they are ready, willing and able to commit to the enormous responsibility of being a parent. Each woman needs to be free to choose.

I gotta ask in all seriousness cuz I respect your opinion more than most: what about the unborn's right to life? How can you be so cavalier about terminating a life? What's different for that person after birth than before that means his/her life can be ended? The woman can carry the baby to term and give it up and go on with her life but the unborn life is DEAD. The circumstances of conception are certainly not the fault of the fetus/baby, and yet so many have no problem destroying him/her. Hard to understand.

I believe in quality of life and the right of a woman to choose. When I was faced with the question myself, I couldn't do it. It completely changed my life. I'm not complaining, but buster you better believe it is a life changer. How many women do you think are strong enough to bring a baby to term and give it away? There's hormones involved there. It is hell. I know women who have done it and NONE of them ever forgot it, just like they never forget the abortion. It's not easy stuff. But how do I justify terminating the potential life when it is an insensate finger sized mass? I think of the children who are unwanted in this world and what kind of life they are likely to live. Is it better to terminate that spark of potential before it begins or force it into a world where the child is likely to suffer in one way or another.
That's how I so cavalierly decide it is a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

 

[MarkDuffy]

Using standard definitions, socially 'moral' in the legal sense - personally immoral. It is a barbaric medical procedure that dehumanizes the 'victim', much as slavery did, a tactic used by most of the worlds cruelest tyrants to justify mass murder and genocide.

Pregnancy - easiest of all STD's to avoid.

What is barbaric is controlling our reproduction, what we allow to happen with our bodies. No one is saying you HAVE TO terminate an unwanted pregnancy if you don't believe in it. However, no one should be able to tell a woman that she MUST reproduce. The current relaxing of employers' duty to provide birth control coverage and the targeted attacks against Planned Parenthood are a double attack on women's right to choose.
Women know if they are ready, willing and able to commit to the enormous responsibility of being a parent. Each woman needs to be free to choose.

I gotta ask in all seriousness cuz I respect your opinion more than most: what about the unborn's right to life? How can you be so cavalier about terminating a life? What's different for that person after birth than before that means his/her life can be ended? The woman can carry the baby to term and give it up and go on with her life but the unborn life is DEAD. The circumstances of conception are certainly not the fault of the fetus/baby, and yet so many have no problem destroying him/her. Hard to understand.

What is hard to understand is you thinking the woman having an abortion does not know what she is doing and does not suffer guilt. Additionally, you thinking that throwing another child into the foster care system is good for the child.

 

[Chuz Life]

What's you position, and why?

The only time an abortion is moral is if the woman and baby will die if she brings the baby to term. Then, the abortion is an attempt to save a life.......it is triage vs. murder. Any other abortion is immoral.

I would like to see laws that require doctors to do all they can do (within reason) to save all lives they are presented with.

How about you?

 

[Votto]

Using standard definitions, socially 'moral' in the legal sense - personally immoral. It is a barbaric medical procedure that dehumanizes the 'victim', much as slavery did, a tactic used by most of the worlds cruelest tyrants to justify mass murder and genocide.

Pregnancy - easiest of all STD's to avoid.

What is barbaric is controlling our reproduction, what we allow to happen with our bodies. No one is saying you HAVE TO terminate an unwanted pregnancy if you don't believe in it. However, no one should be able to tell a woman that she MUST reproduce. The current relaxing of employers' duty to provide birth control coverage and the targeted attacks against Planned Parenthood are a double attack on women's right to choose.
Women know if they are ready, willing and able to commit to the enormous responsibility of being a parent. Each woman needs to be free to choose.

I gotta ask in all seriousness cuz I respect your opinion more than most: what about the unborn's right to life? How can you be so cavalier about terminating a life? What's different for that person after birth than before that means his/her life can be ended? The woman can carry the baby to term and give it up and go on with her life but the unborn life is DEAD. The circumstances of conception are certainly not the fault of the fetus/baby, and yet so many have no problem destroying him/her. Hard to understand.

I believe in quality of life and the right of a woman to choose. When I was faced with the question myself, I couldn't do it. It completely changed my life. I'm not complaining, but buster you better believe it is a life changer. How many women do you think are strong enough to bring a baby to term and give it away? There's hormones involved there. It is hell. I know women who have done it and NONE of them ever forgot it, just like they never forget the abortion. It's not easy stuff. But how do I justify terminating the potential life when it is an insensate finger sized mass? I think of the children who are unwanted in this world and what kind of life they are likely to live. Is it better to terminate that spark of potential before it begins or force it into a world where the child is likely to suffer in one way or another.
That's how I so cavalierly decide it is a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

Try to understand, your feelings on the matter does not address whether it is human or not.

Why should someone's feelings about whether or not we should live or die be meaningful whatsoever?

 

[Votto]

Using standard definitions, socially 'moral' in the legal sense - personally immoral. It is a barbaric medical procedure that dehumanizes the 'victim', much as slavery did, a tactic used by most of the worlds cruelest tyrants to justify mass murder and genocide.

Pregnancy - easiest of all STD's to avoid.

What is barbaric is controlling our reproduction, what we allow to happen with our bodies. No one is saying you HAVE TO terminate an unwanted pregnancy if you don't believe in it. However, no one should be able to tell a woman that she MUST reproduce. The current relaxing of employers' duty to provide birth control coverage and the targeted attacks against Planned Parenthood are a double attack on women's right to choose.
Women know if they are ready, willing and able to commit to the enormous responsibility of being a parent. Each woman needs to be free to choose.

I gotta ask in all seriousness cuz I respect your opinion more than most: what about the unborn's right to life? How can you be so cavalier about terminating a life? What's different for that person after birth than before that means his/her life can be ended? The woman can carry the baby to term and give it up and go on with her life but the unborn life is DEAD. The circumstances of conception are certainly not the fault of the fetus/baby, and yet so many have no problem destroying him/her. Hard to understand.

What is hard to understand is you thinking the woman having an abortion does not know what she is doing and does not suffer guilt. Additionally, you thinking that throwing another child into the foster care system is good for the child.

Throwing it into foster care? Hell know, slit it's throat instead.

 

[Chuz Life]

Using standard definitions, socially 'moral' in the legal sense - personally immoral. It is a barbaric medical procedure that dehumanizes the 'victim', much as slavery did, a tactic used by most of the worlds cruelest tyrants to justify mass murder and genocide.

Pregnancy - easiest of all STD's to avoid.

What is barbaric is controlling our reproduction, what we allow to happen with our bodies. No one is saying you HAVE TO terminate an unwanted pregnancy if you don't believe in it. However, no one should be able to tell a woman that she MUST reproduce. The current relaxing of employers' duty to provide birth control coverage and the targeted attacks against Planned Parenthood are a double attack on women's right to choose.
Women know if they are ready, willing and able to commit to the enormous responsibility of being a parent. Each woman needs to be free to choose.

I gotta ask in all seriousness cuz I respect your opinion more than most: what about the unborn's right to life? How can you be so cavalier about terminating a life? What's different for that person after birth than before that means his/her life can be ended? The woman can carry the baby to term and give it up and go on with her life but the unborn life is DEAD. The circumstances of conception are certainly not the fault of the fetus/baby, and yet so many have no problem destroying him/her. Hard to understand.

I believe in quality of life and the right of a woman to choose. When I was faced with the question myself, I couldn't do it. It completely changed my life. I'm not complaining, but buster you better believe it is a life changer. How many women do you think are strong enough to bring a baby to term and give it away? There's hormones involved there. It is hell. I know women who have done it and NONE of them ever forgot it, just like they never forget the abortion. It's not easy stuff. But how do I justify terminating the potential life when it is an insensate finger sized mass? I think of the children who are unwanted in this world and what kind of life they are likely to live. Is it better to terminate that spark of potential before it begins or force it into a world where the child is likely to suffer in one way or another.
That's how I so cavalierly decide it is a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

Mere Potential beings can not physically exist.

Children in the womb do.

Exist, that is.

You can not give birth to or abort something that is NOT first already there to be birthed or aborted.

 

[MarkDuffy]

because congress critters are intelligent scientists! GENIUS
Webster would be so jellies

Your claim that a human being in the zygote, embryo or fetal stage of their life is not even an organism is destroyed by the fact that even Planned Parenthood says they are.

oh, so what they say matters now? Lol
Really, who gives a crap what they think? Neither one of us do. For some reason, you are willing to throw away integrity for the sake of argument?
Organisms REQUIRE homeostasis to live. What part about that is not agreed upon in the science community? I would love to know. Politicians dont count

If you can prove that a child in the womb is Not even an organism. . . Why are you not selling you expert testimony to those already doing time for MURDER for killing "children in the womb?"

Abortion is not murder. It is justified homicide in self-defense. You conservatives would flip on the issue if a woman used a gun.

You saying it is not murder is pointless.

Who gives a damn what you think?

You gonna start calling miscarriages murder too? Claim that the mother didn't properly take care of the fetus in utero?

 

[MarkDuffy]

because congress critters are intelligent scientists! GENIUS
Webster would be so jellies

Your claim that a human being in the zygote, embryo or fetal stage of their life is not even an organism is destroyed by the fact that even Planned Parenthood says they are.

oh, so what they say matters now? Lol
Really, who gives a crap what they think? Neither one of us do. For some reason, you are willing to throw away integrity for the sake of argument?
Organisms REQUIRE homeostasis to live. What part about that is not agreed upon in the science community? I would love to know. Politicians dont count

If you can prove that a child in the womb is Not even an organism. . . Why are you not selling you expert testimony to those already doing time for MURDER for killing "children in the womb?"

Abortion is not murder. It is justified homicide in self-defense. You conservatives would flip on the issue if a woman used a gun.

You saying it is not murder is pointless.

Who gives a damn what you think?

Most of America, fool

 

[MarkDuffy]

The one thing that boggles my mind about abortion laws is that if a pregnant woman is murdered and both she and the unborn baby dies, the person that commits the murder can be charged with two homicides. Very progressive states(like California) have found people guilty of double homicides in cases like this.

How can a state like California insist that it's just a fetus in cases of abortion but state that it's an "unborn baby" in cases of homicide??

Easy, only a Mother can choose to abort her child. No one else.

So a mother has a right to murder her child?

Abort her child, yes

 

[Votto]

Your claim that a human being in the zygote, embryo or fetal stage of their life is not even an organism is destroyed by the fact that even Planned Parenthood says they are.

oh, so what they say matters now? Lol
Really, who gives a crap what they think? Neither one of us do. For some reason, you are willing to throw away integrity for the sake of argument?
Organisms REQUIRE homeostasis to live. What part about that is not agreed upon in the science community? I would love to know. Politicians dont count

If you can prove that a child in the womb is Not even an organism. . . Why are you not selling you expert testimony to those already doing time for MURDER for killing "children in the womb?"

Abortion is not murder. It is justified homicide in self-defense. You conservatives would flip on the issue if a woman used a gun.

You saying it is not murder is pointless.

Who gives a damn what you think?

Most of America, fool

Really? Is that true "most of America?"

 

[MarkDuffy]

Using standard definitions, socially 'moral' in the legal sense - personally immoral. It is a barbaric medical procedure that dehumanizes the 'victim', much as slavery did, a tactic used by most of the worlds cruelest tyrants to justify mass murder and genocide.

Pregnancy - easiest of all STD's to avoid.

What is barbaric is controlling our reproduction, what we allow to happen with our bodies. No one is saying you HAVE TO terminate an unwanted pregnancy if you don't believe in it. However, no one should be able to tell a woman that she MUST reproduce. The current relaxing of employers' duty to provide birth control coverage and the targeted attacks against Planned Parenthood are a double attack on women's right to choose.
Women know if they are ready, willing and able to commit to the enormous responsibility of being a parent. Each woman needs to be free to choose.

I gotta ask in all seriousness cuz I respect your opinion more than most: what about the unborn's right to life? How can you be so cavalier about terminating a life? What's different for that person after birth than before that means his/her life can be ended? The woman can carry the baby to term and give it up and go on with her life but the unborn life is DEAD. The circumstances of conception are certainly not the fault of the fetus/baby, and yet so many have no problem destroying him/her. Hard to understand.

What is hard to understand is you thinking the woman having an abortion does not know what she is doing and does not suffer guilt. Additionally, you thinking that throwing another child into the foster care system is good for the child.

Throwing it into foster care? Hell know, slit it's throat instead.

I am a hardass on this, yes.

 

[Ace Nova]

The one thing that boggles my mind about abortion laws is that if a pregnant woman is murdered and both she and the unborn baby dies, the person that commits the murder can be charged with two homicides. Very progressive states(like California) have found people guilty of double homicides in cases like this.

How can a state like California insist that it's just a fetus in cases of abortion but state that it's an "unborn baby" in cases of homicide??

Easy, only a Mother can choose to abort her child. No one else.

So a mother has a right to murder her child?

Abort her child, yes

How is that not considered murder? How can it not be murder when she does it but it's murder if someone kills her and her child?

It's either murder or it's not. Can't have it one way then another. Makes zero sense.

 

[MarkDuffy]

It would be helpful if conservatives were actually the "Pro-Life" you all claim.

Conservatives help the child after birth ~ Hell no
Help with contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies ~ Hell no
Adopt babies ~ Hell No
Approve welfare for single moms ~ Hell no
The very short list.

We have a new one in this thread and you all agree. Not one of you came out approving the law that the murder of pregnant women should be a higher crime than just a single murder.

You should be ashamed of yourselves

 

[Chuz Life]

Your claim that a human being in the zygote, embryo or fetal stage of their life is not even an organism is destroyed by the fact that even Planned Parenthood says they are.

oh, so what they say matters now? Lol
Really, who gives a crap what they think? Neither one of us do. For some reason, you are willing to throw away integrity for the sake of argument?
Organisms REQUIRE homeostasis to live. What part about that is not agreed upon in the science community? I would love to know. Politicians dont count

If you can prove that a child in the womb is Not even an organism. . . Why are you not selling you expert testimony to those already doing time for MURDER for killing "children in the womb?"

Abortion is not murder. It is justified homicide in self-defense. You conservatives would flip on the issue if a woman used a gun.

You saying it is not murder is pointless.

Who gives a damn what you think?

You gonna start calling miscarriages murder too? Claim that the mother didn't properly take care of the fetus in utero?

It takes more than even a strong suspicion to warrant a MURDER charge for a failed pregnancy. Same as it is with any other MURDER charge. The burden of proof is very high.

 

[Ace Nova]

It would be helpful if conservatives were actually the "Pro-Life" you all claim.

Conservatives help the child after birth ~ Hell no
Help with contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies ~ Hell no
Adopt babies ~ Hell No
Approve welfare for single moms ~ Hell no
The very short list.

We have a new one in this thread and you all agree. Not one of you came out approving the law that the murder of pregnant women should be a higher crime than just a single murder.

You should be ashamed of yourselves

I'm independent. And I wouldn't have any issues with helping the mother or the child after birth. Or contraceptives, or adoption, etc.