Abdication...

Bullypulpit

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2004
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Columbus, OH
<blockquote>Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necesary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so, whenever he deems it necessary for such purpose - and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after you have given him so much as you propose. If, today, he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada, to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him, "I see no probablity of the British invading us" but he will say to you, "Be silent; I see it, if you don't."

The provision of the Constitution giving the war-making power to Congress, was dictated, as I inderstand it, by the following reasons. Kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object. This, our Convention understood to be the most oppressive of all kingly oppressions; and they resolved to so frame the Constitution that no one man should hold the power of bringing this oppression upon us. But your view destroys the whole matter, and places our President where kings have always stood. </blockquote>

The above passage was taken from a letter from Abrham Lincoln to William Herndon in refutation of Mr. Herndon's support of James Polk's war with Mexico.

It applies equally, today, to President Bush's policy of pre-emption in the case of Iraq, or any other threat his deluded mind might percieve. Congress and Congress alone has the power to declare war, and it doesn't really matter how many times it's been done before, they violated the Constitution in abdicating their power to send troops into harms way to the President.
Similarly, the President had no right to accept such powers, and in doing so he violated the Constitution.

ANY who authorized this abdication of authority stand in contempt of the very foundation of the Republic, and are unworthy of the office they hold, just as ANY who accepted such authority stand in contempt of the Constitution and are unworthy of the office they hold. {Yes, that means John Kerry AND George Bush)
 
Bullypulpit said:
It applies equally, today, to President Bush's policy of pre-emption in the case of Iraq, or any other threat his deluded mind might percieve. Congress and Congress alone has the power to declare war, and it doesn't really matter how many times it's been done before, they violated the Constitution in abdicating their power to send troops into harms way to the President. Similarly, the President had no right to accept such powers, and in doing so he violated the Constitution.

ANY who authorized this abdication of authority stand in contempt of the very foundation of the Republic, and are unworthy of the office they hold, just as ANY who accepted such authority stand in contempt of the Constitution and are unworthy of the office they hold. {Yes, that means John Kerry AND George Bush)

Congress gave very specific authority to the President to fight the war on terrorism, based on his authority as Commander-in-Chief to determine where the enemy was and how to best fight him.
And using your logic, the Civil War, the Mexican incursions, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Gulf War I, Haiti, Somalia, Bosnia, and Kosovo were all also illegal, since we didn't declare war then either.
While you are very correct in saying that Congress holds the power to declare war, I don't think we'll see another declared war anytime soon. It just doesn't happen any more. Congress does still hold the power to put troops in harm's way; they voted to use our troops in fighting the GWOT. I see nothing wrong with the way things occurred.
 
gop_jeff said:
Congress gave very specific authority to the President to fight the war on terrorism, based on his authority as Commander-in-Chief to determine where the enemy was and how to best fight him.
And using your logic, the Civil War, the Mexican incursions, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Gulf War I, Haiti, Somalia, Bosnia, and Kosovo were all also illegal, since we didn't declare war then either.
While you are very correct in saying that Congress holds the power to declare war, I don't think we'll see another declared war anytime soon. It just doesn't happen any more. Congress does still hold the power to put troops in harm's way; they voted to use our troops in fighting the GWOT. I see nothing wrong with the way things occurred.

The Congressional bill was a formality, anyway. The President has supreme authority as the commander-in-chief of the armed forces. He can attack anybody at any time without Congressional permission, he just thought it would be proper to obtain Congressional permission this time. There's a time limit on how long he can keep them in one place, though, that was passed into law after Vietnam.
 
Hobbit said:
The Congressional bill was a formality, anyway. The President has supreme authority as the commander-in-chief of the armed forces. He can attack anybody at any time without Congressional permission, he just thought it would be proper to obtain Congressional permission this time. There's a time limit on how long he can keep them in one place, though, that was passed into law after Vietnam.

the president does NOT have supreme authority. Thats why we have a balance of power in this nation. What the president CAN do is deploy troops anywhere and have 60/90? days to inform and get congressional approval. If congress denies that approval then he has to withdraw the troops. I think thats how it works.
 
DKSuddeth said:
the president does NOT have supreme authority. Thats why we have a balance of power in this nation. What the president CAN do is deploy troops anywhere and have 60/90? days to inform and get congressional approval. If congress denies that approval then he has to withdraw the troops. I think thats how it works.

He has 60 days, extendable another 30 days, for a total of 90 days. The act is called "The War Powers Act of 1973".

SEC. 5. (b)
Within sixty calendar days after a report is submitted or is required to be submitted pursuant to section 4(a)(1), whichever is earlier, the President shall terminate any use of United States Armed Forces with respect to which such report was submitted (or required to be submitted), unless the Congress (1) has declared war or has enacted a specific authorization for such use of United States Armed Forces, (2) has extended by law such sixty-day period, or (3) is physically unable to meet as a result of an armed attack upon the United States. Such sixty-day period shall be extended for not more than an additional thirty days if the President determines and certifies to the Congress in writing that unavoidable military necessity respecting the safety of United States Armed Forces requires the continued use of such armed forces in the course of bringing about a prompt removal of such forces.

The War Powers Act of 1973
 
While every President since Nixon has declared the War Powers Act an unconstitutional breach of presidential powers, every one of them has complied.
 
gop_jeff said:
While every President since Nixon has declared the War Powers Act an unconstitutional breach of presidential powers, every one of them has complied.

It doesn't make them right...only hypocrites and betrayers of their oaths of office.
 
Bullypulpit said:
It doesn't make them right...only hypocrites and betrayers of their oaths of office.


The constitution, in some ways, it what some call a "living document". Oh that's right you libs only believe THAT when there's something constitutional that inhibits the socialism you love so well. I forgot.
 
Actually, Bully, I'm pleased to see that you have turned into somewhat of a Constitutionalist. I wonder if you would be willing to agree with these other positions:

1. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for education; therefore, all federal spending on education should cease.
2. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for the health of US citizens; therefore, all federal spending related to vaccines, health research, AIDS treatment, breast cancer, etc. should cease.
3. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for art; therefore, all federal spending on the arts should cease.
4. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for the safety of Americans; therefore, all federal spending on safety boards and research should cease.
 
gop_jeff said:
Actually, Bully, I'm pleased to see that you have turned into somewhat of a Constitutionalist. I wonder if you would be willing to agree with these other positions:

1. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for education; therefore, all federal spending on education should cease.
2. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for the health of US citizens; therefore, all federal spending related to vaccines, health research, AIDS treatment, breast cancer, etc. should cease.
3. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for art; therefore, all federal spending on the arts should cease.
4. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for the safety of Americans; therefore, all federal spending on safety boards and research should cease.

I could definitely be for number 4, provided the federal government stops protecting corporations from consumer lawsuits for injuries incurred.
 
DKSuddeth said:
I could definitely be for number 4, provided the federal government stops protecting corporations from consumer lawsuits for injuries incurred.

DK - you MUST get off your "corporations are evil" mantra that you constantly throw out there. People like John Edwards would not be wealthy Trial Lawyers if the govumint was protecting corporations from consumer lawsuits for injuries.
 
The problem with the War Powers Act is not that it's a violation of the letter of the Constitution, but that it's a violation of the idea of separation of powers and thus a violation of the basic tenets of our political system.

acludem
 
gop_jeff said:
Actually, Bully, I'm pleased to see that you have turned into somewhat of a Constitutionalist. I wonder if you would be willing to agree with these other positions:

1. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for education; therefore, all federal spending on education should cease.
2. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for the health of US citizens; therefore, all federal spending related to vaccines, health research, AIDS treatment, breast cancer, etc. should cease.
3. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for art; therefore, all federal spending on the arts should cease.
4. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for the safety of Americans; therefore, all federal spending on safety boards and research should cease.

I'm all for number three. Plenty of other things that money could be used for.
 
gop_jeff said:
Actually, Bully, I'm pleased to see that you have turned into somewhat of a Constitutionalist. I wonder if you would be willing to agree with these other positions:

1. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for education; therefore, all federal spending on education should cease.
2. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for the health of US citizens; therefore, all federal spending related to vaccines, health research, AIDS treatment, breast cancer, etc. should cease.
3. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for art; therefore, all federal spending on the arts should cease.
4. The Constitution does not grant the federal government to provide for the safety of Americans; therefore, all federal spending on safety boards and research should cease.


1. Articl IV, Section 2 of the Constitution states "<i><b>The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.</b></i>". Under this provision, the marriages of same gender couples in Massachusetts must be recognized in ALL fifty states.

2. The Preamble states, "...in Order to form a more perfect Union,
establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common
defence, <b>promote the general Welfare</b>, and secure the Blessings of Liberty...". Healthcare falls under the concept of promoting the general welfare, as does education and safety.
 
freeandfun1 said:
DK - you MUST get off your "corporations are evil" mantra that you constantly throw out there. People like John Edwards would not be wealthy Trial Lawyers if the govumint was protecting corporations from consumer lawsuits for injuries.

I'd be all for frivolous lawsuit fines as well. that couldn't be left up to a jury obviously.
 
Bullypulpit said:
1. Articl IV, Section 2 of the Constitution states "<i><b>The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.</b></i>". Under this provision, the marriages of same gender couples in Massachusetts must be recognized in ALL fifty states.

2. The Preamble states, "...in Order to form a more perfect Union,
establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common
defence, <b>promote the general Welfare</b>, and secure the Blessings of Liberty...". Healthcare falls under the concept of promoting the general welfare, as does education and safety.

Regarding #1....
Although arguable, I think the Tenth Amendment is clearly in the way of this statement, "Under this provision, the marriages of same gender couples in Massachusetts must be recognized in ALL fifty states." being an absolute.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

As to #2.....The Preamble to the Constitution has no force in law; instead, it establishes the "Why" of the Constitution.

Nice liberal spin though.:eek2:
 
acludem said:
The problem with the War Powers Act is not that it's a violation of the letter of the Constitution, but that it's a violation of the idea of separation of powers and thus a violation of the basic tenets of our political system.

acludem



You've got elephant balls, crying about the violation of the separation of powers and the basic tenets of our political system. Using an out of control judiciary to circumvent the constitutionally recognized powers of the people is the ACLU's stock in trade!
 
Mr. P said:
Regarding #1....
Although arguable, I think the Tenth Amendment is clearly in the way of this statement, "Under this provision, the marriages of same gender couples in Massachusetts must be recognized in ALL fifty states." being an absolute.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

As to #2.....The Preamble to the Constitution has no force in law; instead, it establishes the "Why" of the Constitution.

Nice liberal spin though.:eek2:

Nice try...Article IV, section 2 is why the right-wingnuts want a Constitutional amendment banning same gender unions. The issue is already being brought to trial in several states, so we'll see.

The Constitution is the law of the land, and while the preamble may not have the force of law, it provides the justification for public education, healthcare for all and occupational and environmental safety.
 
Bullypulpit said:
1. Articl IV, Section 2 of the Constitution states "<i><b>The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.</b></i>". Under this provision, the marriages of same gender couples in Massachusetts must be recognized in ALL fifty states.

2. The Preamble states, "...in Order to form a more perfect Union,
establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common
defence, <b>promote the general Welfare</b>, and secure the Blessings of Liberty...". Healthcare falls under the concept of promoting the general welfare, as does education and safety.

1. Then why did Congress then pass the DOMA, which specifically says that same-sex marriages in one state do not have to be recognized in other states? And why are business licenses and concealed (weapons) carry permits issued in one state not automatically recognized in all other states?

2. The Preamble has never been recognized as legally binding. While it lays out the purpose of the Constitution, it is not used by legal scholars or judges as legal justification of any particular law or regulation.
 

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