A Special Middle East Birthday

[mikegriffith1]

LOL! Uh, no, I don't. I guess you're not aware that Mubarak was wounded during the assassination? He was on the reviewing stand with Sadat. The terrorists had hoped to kill both Sadat and Mubarak. Terrorists tried to kill Mubarak in 1995.

Yeah, sure, guy, you keep telling yourself that..

Obviously, you don't know a coup when you see one.

LOL! You are the gift that just keeps on giving. Oh, it was a coup attempt all right: a coup attempt by radical Muslims. But it was quickly put down.

Radical Muslims hated Mubarak, which is why they tried to kill him again in 1995.

Can you cite a single even halfway credible scholar who believes that Mubarak was behind Sadat's assassination? I mean, again, Mubarak was on the stand with Sadat and barely escaped death in the attack.

In case you want to stop making ignorant statements about the results of the deposing of Mubarak:

Sisi Isn't Mubarak. He's Much Worse.​

Humm, it's interesting your take on Middle Eastern affairs so frequently resembles the radical Muslim viewpoint.

You mean, reality? Hey, guy, we are in YEAR 19 OF THE WAR ON TERROR. We are probably in a worse position than we were when we started by any metric. If anyone has a "viewpoint" based on wishful thinking and fantasy, it's you and your imperialistic viewpoint. The Arab world is still mad at us, for the same things they were mad at us about when the planes hit the towers.

This polemic doesn't address my point.

And, uh, the war on terror has been going on for a lot longer than 19 years, at least down here on this planet, but maybe not on the one you inhabit.

Like I said, it's not always a choice between good and bad but between somewhat bad and very bad.

Yeah, giving your love for Fascism, that's not saying much...

Leaving aside your butchered grammar, as I've already pointed out, you, in fact, are the one who seems to love fascism, which is just another form of totalitarianism. The Palestinian regime in Gaza is certainly fascist by any definition. So is the radical Muslim regime in Iran. Given that Red China has now largely ditched socialist economic policies, it can rightly be considered a fascist regime. The only difference between a fascist regime and a communist regime is their economic policies. Other than that, they are identical in every key respect: both suppress freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, and both deny the right to elect your leaders, the right to due process, and the right to a fair trial by a jury of your peers.

I, on the other hand, reject fascism, communism, and all other totalitarian isms. I embrace libertarian freedom, limited government, the right of private property, and pluralism as taught in the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, William Blackstone, William Rawle, Joseph Story, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Alexander Hamilton.

you still think the wrong side lost World War II.

I do?! Huh, I'm just drawing a blank trying to remember ever saying any such thing. But, hey, facts never seem to concern you anyway. And if I "still think the wrong side lost World War II," then I guess I can say, with far more credibility, that you think that murdering 30 million people is progress and stability, right? I mean, you are the same JoeB131 who said, several times in the Nanking Massacre thread, that Chairman Mao, who was arguably the worst mass murderer in human history, brought economic prosperity, stability, and progress to China after he took over, right? And didn't you also say that it was a good thing that the Communists took over China instead of the Nationalists, and that the people in Red China under Mao were better off than the people in Taiwan under Chiang Kaishek? That was you who said those things, right? Right? Hey?

And, oh yeah, aren't you the same JoeB131 who denied that Stalin committed genocide and who minimized his mass murders? Is there another JoeB131 on this forum? Is someone perhaps using your login without your knowledge?

And, uh, aren't you the same JoeB131 who consistently attacks Israel as a tyranny but who won't say a word about the genuine Palestinian tyranny in Gaza? I asked you before, and you ducked the question, to tell me how you would compare basic civil rights in Israel as opposed to Gaza. You ducked the question because even you surely know that Israel is a vibrant democracy with a robust free press, an independent judiciary, free elections, etc., whereas Gaza is a squalid tyranny that resembles the brutal regimes in Iran, Syria, and Cuba.

 

[JoeB131]

LOL! You are the gift that just keeps on giving. Oh, it was a coup attempt all right: a coup attempt by radical Muslims. But it was quickly put down.

Radical Muslims hated Mubarak, which is why they tried to kill him again in 1995.

Can you cite a single even halfway credible scholar who believes that Mubarak was behind Sadat's assassination? I mean, again, Mubarak was on the stand with Sadat and barely escaped death in the attack.

Point was, he escaped.

Here is a very credible source who thought Mubarak was in on it. Sadat's daughter.

30 years later, questions remain over Sadat killing, peace with Israel - CNN

Sadat's assassination was recently revisited by his daughter, Roqaya al-Sadat, a month after Mubarak was toppled. She filed a case in March at the general prosecutor's office claiming new evidence had emerged implicating Mubarak, who was Sadat's vice president.
"The lead gunman's machine gun jammed and he reached in the vehicle for another gun," said Talaat El Sadat. He demands an explanation to how guns without their safety pins were smuggled in.
"Where was my uncle's elite security all this time?"
"The answer (to all of this) is Hosni Mubarak. He benefits the most from the killing, assisted by the Americans and the Israelis," El Sadat said.

In case you want to stop making ignorant statements about the results of the deposing of Mubarak:

Sisi Isn't Mubarak. He's Much Worse.

Oh, I agree. Sisi is much worse. The one time we let the Egyptians vote, they voted for Islam.. Then the military put them down. But when Sisi fails to pull Egypt's economy out of the shitter, he'll be gone, too.

This polemic doesn't address my point.

And, uh, the war on terror has been going on for a lot longer than 19 years, at least down here on this planet, but maybe not on the one you inhabit.

It completely addresses your point. If we had FREE ELECTIONS in the Middle East, the people would elect the folks you decry as "Terrorists".

Maybe it's time to stop sticking our dicks in the Hornet's Nest and complaining about getting stung.

I, on the other hand, reject fascism, communism, and all other totalitarian isms. I embrace libertarian freedom, the right of private property, and pluralism as taught in the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, William Blackstone, William Rawle, Joseph Story, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Alexander Hamilton.

You mean a bunch of Old Dead White Guys who were all for Democracy for White People.

What if people vote for socialism? Then you aren't for democracy at all.

I do?! Huh, I'm just drawing a blank trying to remember ever saying any such thing. But, hey, facts never seem to concern you anyway. And if I "still think the wrong side lost World War II," then I guess I can say, with far more credibility, that you think that murdering 30 million people is progress and stability, right? I mean, you are the same JoeB131 who said, several times in the Nanking Massacre thread, that Chairman Mao, who was arguably the worst mass murderer in human history, brought economic prosperity, stability, and progress to China after he took over, right?

Only if you believe Horseshit Bircher Propaganda. China went from being everyone's bitch in Asia to a super power everyone feared and respected under Mao.

And, oh yeah, aren't you the same JoeB131 who denied that Stalin committed genocide and who minimized his mass murders? Is there another JoeB131 on this forum? Is someone perhaps using your login without your knowledge?

Stalin never committed "Genocide". Genocide implies that he attempted to exterminate a whole ethnicity, like we did with the Native Americans or Hitler tried with the Jews.

And, uh, aren't you the same JoeB131 who consistently attacks Israel as a tyranny but who won't say a word about the genuine Palestinian tyranny in Gaza? I asked you before, and you ducked the question, to tell me how you would compare basic civil rights in Israel as opposed to Gaza.

You miss the point. Most people are okay with their own governments oppressing them, but they HATE, HATE, HATE when some foreigner comes in and oppresses them. The Jews are invaders from Europe. THAT'S why they are hated when they invade Palestine and treat their people like second class citizens.

Hamas MIGHT be bastards, but they are the bastards who've won over the people. Did you know that Hamas also runs massive charity programs on Gaza and the West Bank? This is why they are so loved.

As opposed to Fatah, which took a bunch of western money to sell out their own people and accept Zionist Occupation, and diverted most of it to Swiss Bank Accounts so their leaders could live large.

 

[mikegriffith1]

LOL! You are the gift that just keeps on giving. Oh, it was a coup attempt all right: a coup attempt by radical Muslims. But it was quickly put down.

Radical Muslims hated Mubarak, which is why they tried to kill him again in 1995.

Can you cite a single even halfway credible scholar who believes that Mubarak was behind Sadat's assassination? I mean, again, Mubarak was on the stand with Sadat and barely escaped death in the attack.

Point was, he escaped.

Uh, no, the point is that they tried to kill him, twice. The point is that they hated his guts. The point is that he missed being killed a razor's edge.

Here is a very credible source who thought Mubarak was in on it. Sadat's daughter.

30 years later, questions remain over Sadat killing, peace with Israel - CNN

ROFLOL! So your idea of a "credible source" is a child with a crazy conspiracy theory given legs by one of the least-watched news networks on the planet? When I said "credible source," I was thinking of scholars who have studied the event.

Sadat's assassination was recently revisited by his daughter, Roqaya al-Sadat, a month after Mubarak was toppled. She filed a case in March at the general prosecutor's office claiming new evidence had emerged implicating Mubarak, who was Sadat's vice president.
"The lead gunman's machine gun jammed and he reached in the vehicle for another gun," said Talaat El Sadat. He demands an explanation to how guns without their safety pins were smuggled in.
"Where was my uncle's elite security all this time?"
"The answer (to all of this) is Hosni Mubarak. He benefits the most from the killing, assisted by the Americans and the Israelis," El Sadat said.

Shame on CNN for printing such ignorant drivel. Several of the gunmen were killed during the shooting. They drove up in a military truck. Even many people on the stand assumed they were part of the ceremony. Sadat clearly thought so, because he stood up to salute them.

Yes, of course, any VP "benefits" if the president is killed, but that's a function of his office that he can't avoid.

In case you want to stop making ignorant statements about the results of the deposing of Mubarak:

Sisi Isn't Mubarak. He's Much Worse.

Oh, I agree. Sisi is much worse. The one time we let the Egyptians vote, they voted for Islam.. Then the military put them down. But when Sisi fails to pull Egypt's economy out of the toilet, he'll be gone, too.

Uh, let's have a reality check. The military "put them down" because they elected a guy who was in bed with the radical Muslim Brotherhood and who was in the process of trying to give himself unlimited powers, including the power to legislate without judicial oversight or review. So, yeah, they, and many other Egyptians, figured that this was not a good thing, and so they acted before he could make himself a dictator.

The fact that Sisi is worse than Mubarak proves my point that sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils. Most people would agree that Egypt was better off under Mubarak than they have been since he was deposed.

This polemic doesn't address my point.

And, uh, the war on terror has been going on for a lot longer than 19 years, at least down here on this planet, but maybe not on the one you inhabit.

It completely addresses your point. If we had FREE ELECTIONS in the Middle East, the people would elect the folks you decry as "Terrorists".

Humm, you think the radical Muslims allowed a "free election" in Egypt?! You don't know that they intimidated many Egyptians into not voting? You don't know that they scared many other Egyptians into voting for Morsi, or else. Do you have any clue in Kentucky what you're talking about?

Maybe it's time to stop sticking our hands in the Hornet's Nest and complaining about getting stung.

Yeah, because things have worked out so well when we've stood back and done nothing. Yeah, you bet.

I, on the other hand, reject fascism, communism, and all other totalitarian isms. I embrace libertarian freedom, the right of private property, and pluralism as taught in the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, William Blackstone, William Rawle, Joseph Story, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Alexander Hamilton.

You mean a bunch of Old Dead White Guys who were all for Democracy for White People.

I would take their version of a free society over Mao's or Stalin's version any day. Wouldn't you?

What if people vote for socialism? Then you aren't for democracy at all.

Huh?

I do?! Huh, I'm just drawing a blank trying to remember ever saying any such thing. But, hey, facts never seem to concern you anyway. And if I "still think the wrong side lost World War II," then I guess I can say, with far more credibility, that you think that murdering 30 million people is progress and stability, right? I mean, you are the same JoeB131 who said, several times in the Nanking Massacre thread, that Chairman Mao, who was arguably the worst mass murderer in human history, brought economic prosperity, stability, and progress to China after he took over, right?

Only if you believe Bircher Propaganda. China went from being everyone's bitch in Asia to a super power everyone feared and respected under Mao.

Thank you for again doubling-down on your defense of, and admiration for, the worst mass murderer in human history. This fits well with your recent statement in another thread that the Communists got their "fair share" in Eastern Europe and Asia. Mao turned China into a horrific nightmare, killing at least 30 million Chinese and forcing millions of others to work as slaves in forced-labor camps. China remained in squalid poverty for years under Mao.

In contrast, the Nationalists turned Taiwan into one of the greatest economic miracles in modern history (and, by the way, our economic aid to Taiwan never exceeded 5% of their GDP).

And, oh yeah, aren't you the same JoeB131 who denied that Stalin committed genocide and who minimized his mass murders? Is there another JoeB131 on this forum? Is someone perhaps using your login without your knowledge?

Stalin never committed "Genocide". Genocide implies that he attempted to exterminate a whole ethnicity, like we did with the Native Americans or Hitler tried with the Jews.

Stalin never committed genocide?! Really? Here's some free education for you:

Stalin’s Genocides

The History Place - Genocide in the 20th Century: Stalin's Forced Famine 1932-33

Did Joseph Stalin Commit Genocide? - The Volokh Conspiracy

And, uh, aren't you the same JoeB131 who consistently attacks Israel as a tyranny but who won't say a word about the genuine Palestinian tyranny in Gaza? I asked you before, and you ducked the question, to tell me how you would compare basic civil rights in Israel as opposed to Gaza.

You miss the point. Most people are okay with their own governments oppressing them, but they HATE, HATE, HATE when some foreigner comes in and oppresses them. The Jews are invaders from Europe. THAT'S why they are hated when they invade Palestine and treat their people like second class citizens.

I guess you had your collection of radical Muslim writings handy when you penned this gem of radical Muslim mythology. You don't know what on earth you're talking about. Obviously, you didn't bother to read any of the scholarly links I provided to you on this issue.

Hamas MIGHT be bastards, but they are the bastards who've won over the people. Did you know that Hamas also runs massive charity programs on Gaza and the West Bank? This is why they are so loved.

Wow. So Hamas is "loved" by the Palestinians? Is that why Hamas has killed thousands of Palestinians whose only crime was they wanted peace with Israel? Is that why Hamas puts their rocket batteries in Gazan neighborhoods? Is that why Hamas repeats Nazi propaganda about the Jews?

Since you like Wikipedia so much, read what even Wikipedia says about Hamas:

Hamas - Wikipedia

When you finish with that article, which I would give a B grade, you might read these:

National Counterterrorism Center | Groups

https://www.counterextremism.com/sites/default/files/threat_pdf/Hamas-01072020.pdf

Hamas is a terrorist organization — it doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt

By the way, Hamas did not win a majority of the vote; they won a plurality because the non-extremist vote was split between other parties.

What has Hamas done with all the millions of dollars it has received in aid? Hey? Hamas's leaders live in villas while the rest of the populaiton lives in poverty because Hamas has used most of the money to buy weapons and fund terrorist actions against Israel.

You've ducked this question twice now: How would you compre the status of basic rights in Israel with the status of basic rights in Gaza under Hamas? It's not a hard question. Here's what Human Rights Watch says about human rights in Gaza:

Hamas

Let's break down the question into some very simple sub-questions:

How many strident opposition newspapers are there in Gaza? (Israel has several such newspapers.)

How many major TV networks in Gaza feel free to strongly criticize Hamas? (One of Israel's major TV networks routinely attacks the Likud-led government. And, when Labor is in power, another one of Israel's major TV networks routinely attacks the Labor-led government.)

Does Gaza have anything remotely resembling an independent judiciary? (Israel has one of the strongest, most independent judicial systems in the Western world.)

 

[JoeB131]

ROFLOL! So your idea of a "credible source" is a child with a crazy conspiracy theory given legs by one of the least-watched news networks on the planet? When I said "credible source," I was thinking of scholars who have studied the event.

You said a credible source. his family is a credible source.

Stalin never committed genocide?! Really? Here's some free education for you:

More Bircher Propaganda? Which "race" did he try to exterminate? That's what genocide means, Axis Mikey.

I guess you had your collection of radical Muslim writings handy when you penned this gem of radical Muslim mythology. You don't know what on earth you're talking about. Obviously, you didn't bother to read any of the scholarly links I provided to you on this issue.

Guy, there were almost no Jews in Palestine before 1920. They relocated there.

They are invaders.

Wow. So Hamas is "loved" by the Palestinians? Is that why Hamas has killed thousands of Palestinians whose only crime was they wanted peace with Israel? Is that why Hamas puts their rocket batteries in Gazan neighborhoods? Is that why Hamas repeats Nazi propaganda about the Jews?

Yawn, guy.. I hate to keep explaining this to you. Nobody likes a quisling.

As long as the Zionists live on stolen land, there will be war. We need to not be a part of it.

 

[JoeB131]

Uh, let's have a reality check. The military "put them down" because they elected a guy who was in bed with the radical Muslim Brotherhood and who was in the process of trying to give himself unlimited powers, including the power to legislate without judicial oversight or review. So, yeah, they, and many other Egyptians, figured that this was not a good thing, and so they acted before he could make himself a dictator.

The fact that Sisi is worse than Mubarak proves my point that sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils. Most people would agree that Egypt was better off under Mubarak than they have been since he was deposed.

Uh, guy, we aren't talking about Sisi, we were talking about Morsi... who was democratically elected.

Sisi will be gone soon enough as soon as people figure out he can't fix the economy. Then you'll get a radical Islamic government in Egypt.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Sadat was one of those rare leaders who overcame his childhood brainwashing, learned from his mistakes, and forgave old enemies, and for this the radical Muslims despised him with a murderous hatred.

One of the greatest leaders in modern history. Anwar Sadat was a man of peace in a land of war.

 

[JoeB131]

Thank you for again doubling-down on your defense of, and admiration for, the worst mass murderer in human history. This fits well with your recent statement in another thread that the Communists got their "fair share" in Eastern Europe and Asia. Mao turned China into a horrific nightmare, killing at least 30 million Chinese and forcing millions of others to work as slaves in forced-labor camps. China remained in squalid poverty for years under Mao.

Numbers were nowhere near that, but more importantly WHO CARES.

This is an internal matter. We may or may not like it, but it really isn't any of our business. China before Mao was a splintered state, awash in opium addiction. Yeah, so Mao shot the dopers...

I would take their version of a free society over Mao's or Stalin's version any day. Wouldn't you?

Uh, no, their version gave us that shitball Trump. So not so much.

Guy, I hate to keep explaining this to you, Stalin saved the World from Hitler...It's why Russians STILL respect him. (He was voted the third greatest historical figure in their history after the guy who freed the Serfs and Alexander Nevsky.) Mao is the guy who saved China from Japan and drove out the foreigners. This is why he is still revered by Chinese. Neither country really clings to "Communism" anymore... but these guys are still respected for what they did for their countries.

Sometimes, you need to stop looking at the world like an American. Not everyone is us, not everyone wants to be us.

You've ducked this question twice now: How would you compre the status of basic rights in Israel with the status of basic rights in Gaza under Hamas? It's not a hard question. Here's what Human Rights Watch says about human rights in Gaza:

It's completely irrelevant to the point. The Jews are INVADERS. They stole their land. Hamas might be a bunch of jerks, but they are THEIR jerks. Same with Mao, or Stalin. Sure, INvaders will always find a few Quislings, but Quislings almost always end up taking well deserved dirt naps.