A sin of ommission?

[Bullypulpit]

First is was the the failure of the Obama administration to begin investigations of war crimes under the Bush administration. You remember...water-boarding, stress positions, torture. Then it was the request for dismissal of Jewel v. NSA. Then it's this...Obama to Appeal Detainee Ruling

Now we have...

CIA Officials Won't Be Prosecuted For Waterboarding​

While it's all well and good that the Obama administration released the memos which provided the Bush administration's legal framework for torture, neither he nor anyone else in his administration can make the decision. Under the UN conventions Against Torture, the US is committed to making torture a crime and prosecuting those who engage in it. It is not an option under US law or treaty obligation. The obama administration must follow the evidence wherever , and to whomever, it may lead. Failure to do so is nothing less than complicity in the crime of torture.

 

[garyd]

First you have to decide if it was or was not torture ... I didn't see anything I thought rose to the level of torture.

 

[Bullypulpit]

First you have to decide if it was or was not torture ... I didn't see anything I thought rose to the level of torture.

US and international law have already settled the matter...Water-boarding is torture. You'll get nowhere dredging up that right-wing talking point.

 

[garyd]

Depends on how you do it. The version that was in play when the decision was made is not how we do it.

 

[KittenKoder]

Cool ... for once when a Democrat voted into office screws up by opposing Democrat ideals I can say ...

... At least I didn't vote for the moron.

You know, that actually feels good.

What I don't get is that he isn't really making a mistake with this one. You can't prosecute someone for a crime after the fact. It was permitted by the previous administration and there were no laws in effect that they actually broke. While I don't agree it should have been permitted on moral issues, by the laws there was nothing to stop them. It fell within the limits of interrogation at the time, so persecuting them by law is just impossible and wrong. Again I contend, what they should do is look at the current laws and make changes to prevent it if they don't want it happening again, put it to a vote, if the new law passes then go after anyone at that point on.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Cool ... for once when a Democrat voted into office screws up by opposing Democrat ideals I can say ...

... At least I didn't vote for the moron.

You know, that actually feels good.

What I don't get is that he isn't really making a mistake with this one. You can't prosecute someone for a crime after the fact. It was permitted by the previous administration and there were no laws in effect that they actually broke. While I don't agree it should have been permitted on moral issues, by the laws there was nothing to stop them. It fell within the limits of interrogation at the time, so persecuting them by law is just impossible and wrong. Again I contend, what they should do is look at the current laws and make changes to prevent it if they don't want it happening again, put it to a vote, if the new law passes then go after anyone at that point on.

The Nuremberg defense, " I was just following orders..." was thoroughly discredited at the Nuremberg trials. US law was not changed to comport with the decisions in these documents nor did the US withdraw from the treaty obligations which require prosecution of those who authorize, and engage in, torture. It was just as illegal during the Bush administration as it was before and after. No amount of shoddy legal reasoning can trump the law in this matter.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The New United States' Policies and Procedures
Manual on Interrogation and Intelligence Gathering​

All policies and procedures in this memo must be followed to the letter. Violators of any of the following procedures will result in incarceration and summary judgment and conviction.

All persons of foreign citizenship to be questioned by any agent of the United States of America must first be presented with a written invitation to participate in the investigatory process.

If the invitation is accepted, the participant shall be visited by a hospitality party comprised of one representative of a United State's agency, for example the CIA or FBI, and one human rights official from every other country on the planet.

All members of the hospitality party and our invitee will be conveyed by limousine, not military or otherwise identifiably government vehicles so as not to be stigmatized by being perceived as a criminal.

If conveyance out of the invitee's home country is necessary, transportation will be by private jet and all efforts will be made to ensure the comfort of the invitee. A personal staff, including, 25 attorneys, a personal secretary, chef, physician, masseuse, and personal trainer will be provided and will be on call 24 hours a day.

The invitee will be held in suite at a 5 star resort with no less than 5 rooms and a hot tub. The remainder of the hospitality party will be provided similar but slightly lesser accommodations in the same hotel or another not more than 5 miles away.

The interrogation schedule will be coordinated with the invitee's personal secretary and all possible efforts will be made to accommodate the invitee's needs and wants.

All questions asked by an agent of the United States must begin with "Please, Esteemed and Honorable, Sir" And the invitee must be thanked at least 5 times for any response to a question.

The invitee can at any time call a temporary halt or an indefinite delay to all interrogation. Until such time as the invitee wishes to resume interrogation, every effort humanly possible will be made to ensure his comfort and feeling of safety and well being.

Any variation from this procedure by an agent of the United States will result in an immediate conviction sans trial on charges of violation of the civil rights of and hate crimes toward the invitee and the agent will be summarily executed.

 

[Bullypulpit]

The New United States' Policies and Procedures
Manual on Interrogation and Intelligence Gathering​

All policies and procedures in this memo must be followed to the letter. Violators of any of the following procedures will result in incarceration and summary judgment and conviction.

All persons of foreign citizenship to be questioned by any agent of the United States of America must first be presented with a written invitation to participate in the investigatory process.

If the invitation is accepted, the participant shall be visited by a hospitality party comprised of one representative of a United State's agency, for example the CIA or FBI, and one human rights official from every other country on the planet.

All members of the hospitality party and our invitee will be conveyed by limousine, not military or otherwise identifiably government vehicles so as not to be stigmatized by being perceived as a criminal.

If conveyance out of the invitee's home country is necessary, transportation will be by private jet and all efforts will be made to ensure the comfort of the invitee. A personal staff, including, 25 attorneys, a personal secretary, chef, physician, masseuse, and personal trainer will be provided and will be on call 24 hours a day.

The invitee will be held in suite at a 5 star resort with no less than 5 rooms and a hot tub. The remainder of the hospitality party will be provided similar but slightly lesser accommodations in the same hotel or another not more than 5 miles away.

The interrogation schedule will be coordinated with the invitee's personal secretary and all possible efforts will be made to accommodate the invitee's needs and wants.

All questions asked by an agent of the United States must begin with "Please, Esteemed and Honorable, Sir" And the invitee must be thanked at least 5 times for any response to a question.

The invitee can at any time call a temporary halt or an indefinite delay to all interrogation. Until such time as the invitee wishes to resume interrogation, every effort humanly possible will be made to ensure his comfort and feeling of safety and well being.

Any variation from this procedure by an agent of the United States will result in an immediate conviction sans trial on charges of violation of the civil rights of and hate crimes toward the invitee and the agent will be summarily executed.

So, what's yer point? I mean besides showing just how much of a right wing tool you are with a really bad attempt at ironic juxtaposition...

 

[Skull Pilot]

The New United States' Policies and Procedures
Manual on Interrogation and Intelligence Gathering​

All policies and procedures in this memo must be followed to the letter. Violators of any of the following procedures will result in incarceration and summary judgment and conviction.

All persons of foreign citizenship to be questioned by any agent of the United States of America must first be presented with a written invitation to participate in the investigatory process.

If the invitation is accepted, the participant shall be visited by a hospitality party comprised of one representative of a United State's agency, for example the CIA or FBI, and one human rights official from every other country on the planet.

All members of the hospitality party and our invitee will be conveyed by limousine, not military or otherwise identifiably government vehicles so as not to be stigmatized by being perceived as a criminal.

If conveyance out of the invitee's home country is necessary, transportation will be by private jet and all efforts will be made to ensure the comfort of the invitee. A personal staff, including, 25 attorneys, a personal secretary, chef, physician, masseuse, and personal trainer will be provided and will be on call 24 hours a day.

The invitee will be held in suite at a 5 star resort with no less than 5 rooms and a hot tub. The remainder of the hospitality party will be provided similar but slightly lesser accommodations in the same hotel or another not more than 5 miles away.

The interrogation schedule will be coordinated with the invitee's personal secretary and all possible efforts will be made to accommodate the invitee's needs and wants.

All questions asked by an agent of the United States must begin with "Please, Esteemed and Honorable, Sir" And the invitee must be thanked at least 5 times for any response to a question.

The invitee can at any time call a temporary halt or an indefinite delay to all interrogation. Until such time as the invitee wishes to resume interrogation, every effort humanly possible will be made to ensure his comfort and feeling of safety and well being.

Any variation from this procedure by an agent of the United States will result in an immediate conviction sans trial on charges of violation of the civil rights of and hate crimes toward the invitee and the agent will be summarily executed.

So, what's yer point? I mean besides showing just how much of a right wing tool you are with a really bad attempt at ironic juxtaposition...

My point is, fuck stick, that the government will do whatever it deems necessary to get the information it wants. Just because a fucking politician says something does not make it true.

And I don't believe you've had sufficient discourse with me to label me as a right winger.

FYI you're wrong in making that assumption.

 

[alan1]

First is was the the failure of the Obama administration to begin investigations of war crimes under the Bush administration. You remember...water-boarding, stress positions, torture. Then it was the request for dismissal of Jewel v. NSA. Then it's this...Obama to Appeal Detainee Ruling

Now we have...

CIA Officials Won't Be Prosecuted For Waterboarding​

While it's all well and good that the Obama administration released the memos which provided the Bush administration's legal framework for torture, neither he nor anyone else in his administration can make the decision. Under the UN conventions Against Torture, the US is committed to making torture a crime and prosecuting those who engage in it. It is not an option under US law or treaty obligation. The obama administration must follow the evidence wherever , and to whomever, it may lead. Failure to do so is nothing less than complicity in the crime of torture.

He certainly can, and he did.
Call it a "Presidential Pardon".

 

[Bullypulpit]

The New United States' Policies and Procedures
Manual on Interrogation and Intelligence Gathering​

All policies and procedures in this memo must be followed to the letter. Violators of any of the following procedures will result in incarceration and summary judgment and conviction.

All persons of foreign citizenship to be questioned by any agent of the United States of America must first be presented with a written invitation to participate in the investigatory process.

If the invitation is accepted, the participant shall be visited by a hospitality party comprised of one representative of a United State's agency, for example the CIA or FBI, and one human rights official from every other country on the planet.

All members of the hospitality party and our invitee will be conveyed by limousine, not military or otherwise identifiably government vehicles so as not to be stigmatized by being perceived as a criminal.

If conveyance out of the invitee's home country is necessary, transportation will be by private jet and all efforts will be made to ensure the comfort of the invitee. A personal staff, including, 25 attorneys, a personal secretary, chef, physician, masseuse, and personal trainer will be provided and will be on call 24 hours a day.

The invitee will be held in suite at a 5 star resort with no less than 5 rooms and a hot tub. The remainder of the hospitality party will be provided similar but slightly lesser accommodations in the same hotel or another not more than 5 miles away.

The interrogation schedule will be coordinated with the invitee's personal secretary and all possible efforts will be made to accommodate the invitee's needs and wants.

All questions asked by an agent of the United States must begin with "Please, Esteemed and Honorable, Sir" And the invitee must be thanked at least 5 times for any response to a question.

The invitee can at any time call a temporary halt or an indefinite delay to all interrogation. Until such time as the invitee wishes to resume interrogation, every effort humanly possible will be made to ensure his comfort and feeling of safety and well being.

Any variation from this procedure by an agent of the United States will result in an immediate conviction sans trial on charges of violation of the civil rights of and hate crimes toward the invitee and the agent will be summarily executed.

So, what's yer point? I mean besides showing just how much of a right wing tool you are with a really bad attempt at ironic juxtaposition...

My point is, fuck stick, that the government will do whatever it deems necessary to get the information it wants. Just because a fucking politician says something does not make it true.

And I don't believe you've had sufficient discourse with me to able me as a right winger.

FYI you're wrong in making that assumption.

Your point is little more than the recycling and repetition of various right wing talking points on the matter. As to your not being a right wing tool...please, convince me...ass-hat.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

You gotta take some more time looking around the board. Most people here refuse to believe that there was any torture going on, because Bush is American, and because this is America, so it just doesn't happen, and whatever this whole "waterboarding" thing is about, it's better left under the rug, and we better not worry ourselves too much about it. And that's because torture is bad, but 'we're' good, so 'we' can't be committing torture. It doesn't make any sense! And even then, even if 'WE' are torturing people (which is impossible because 'we're' good and torture is 'bad'), then it must be for the general good- and the government knows that, they know exactly what is acceptable torture and unacceptable torture, and well, interrogations are like sausages anyway! (Better not know how they're made).

 

[Skull Pilot]

Oh, I know there was torture going on and guess what? I don't give a shit.

If any information garnered in any fashion had the smallest iota of a possibility of saving an American life, whatever method used to get that information is fine with me.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

^ That's just fucked up.

 

[Skull Pilot]

^ That's just fucked up.

No, that's being realistic.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

^ That's just fucked up.

No, that's being realistic.

Man, are we talking about the same thing? Maybe we've hit some sort of language barrier here. This is the "torture" thread, right?

If that's the case, then you're not being realistic- you're being a CRAZY radical extremist. Fuck, and I was thinking only those nuts fundamentalists hiding in the caves of western Pakistan were openly in favor of torturing people. Talk about blurring the line.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche.

 

[Skull Pilot]

All that existential philosophical bullshit means nothing if one is trying to find a bomb planted in a school

 

[Smartt33]

First you have to decide if it was or was not torture ... I didn't see anything I thought rose to the level of torture.

US and international law have already settled the matter...Water-boarding is torture. You'll get nowhere dredging up that right-wing talking point.

Smartt: Just as it is torture by our so called Criminal Justice System in the cities and counties across this land who do whatever it takes to make it almost impossible to complete a probation or parole. They make the fees high, have zero tolerance for paying late, and send out threatening letters (often lies) to these clients making them scared and pushing them to the limits.

No matter how hard these people try, these idiot probation officers, and parole officers, and judges will do whatever it takes to get them locked up. That is mental and emotional torture, but it seems no one protests that. There are many criminals who are trying to get their act together, and the system is trying to blow them out of the water.

 

[PoliticalChic]

First you have to decide if it was or was not torture ... I didn't see anything I thought rose to the level of torture.

US and international law have already settled the matter...Water-boarding is torture. You'll get nowhere dredging up that right-wing talking point.

The following explains the specifics of the topic under discussion. Which are illegal under US law?
Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

 

[Bullypulpit]

First you have to decide if it was or was not torture ... I didn't see anything I thought rose to the level of torture.

US and international law have already settled the matter...Water-boarding is torture. You'll get nowhere dredging up that right-wing talking point.

The following explains the specifics of the topic under discussion. Which are illegal under US law?
Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

Any practice of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment by United States officials violates international human rights standards to which the United States is a party. These include the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (the Torture Convention), and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.1

The use of torture also violates U.S. law. In 1994, Congress passed a new federal law which specifically provides for penalties including fines and up to 20 years' imprisonment for acts of torture committed by American or other officials outside the United States. In cases where torture results in death of the victim, the sentence is life imprisonment or executio - Human Rights First

And, then there's the UN Convention Against Torture which the US is a signatory thus giving it the full weight and authority of US law according to the Constitution.

Never mind that torture doesn't provide useful intel to begin with as the victim will say anything to get the interrogators to stop the abuse.

This from Army Colonel Stuart Herrington...

Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop." - The Torture Myth