A serious question about Jewish history

[Indofred]

Again.
This thread is nothing to do with the last 100 years or daft name calling.
I want to understand a little of history.
This thread is about understanding - not hate.

 

[Indofred]

False stereotypes about Judaism were prevalent in the Middle Ages and Ashkenazi Jews lived in Europe with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, which served to maintain their ethnic identity while living in exile for 2,000 years. But their self-segregating lifestyle also reinforced those stereotypes due to the lack of communication with local populations.

This seems to have been at least part of some of the events I've looked at but by no means a major factor (up to now).
It'll be interesting to see how (if) those stereotypes develop as cause of events as I wander through history.

 

[Indofred]

I'd also like to thank the mod team for keeping this thread open.
I know you guys had reservations and I know it's been a bit of a pain for you.

Thank you.

 

[Indofred]

I don't know what school you were in that taught you that the Jews built the pyramids but I was never taught that and I have gone through a lot of schooling. I have a masters in theology and history of religions.

Sir, I would love your input and opinions as to my conclusions.
I have no history degree and can't even claim to be an interested amateur, just some dude out to sort out what happened.
I welcome your input.

 

[editec]

I don't know what school you were in that taught you that the Jews built the pyramids but I was never taught that and I have gone through a lot of schooling. I have a masters in theology and history of religions.

Oh I don't think it was taught IN SCHOOLS, Paul.

But that myth was commonly thought to be the case by most people most of my lifetime.


There was a time, and I suspect for a lot of people that time hasn't yet passed, when the Exodus story also included the myth that the Egyptians kept the Jews in slavery (not true) and that as slaves it was the Jews who built the pyramids.

The idea that slaves (be they Jews or Egyptians) were the laborers who built the pyramids was pretty much accepted theory UNTIL acheologists found more and more evidence to refute that theory.

History, much like physical sciences, corrects itself as more information comes to light.

This gradual death of this cherished myth is a fairly good example of that.

 

[ThirdTerm]

False stereotypes about Judaism were prevalent in the Middle Ages and Ashkenazi Jews lived in Europe with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, which served to maintain their ethnic identity while living in exile for 2,000 years. But their self-segregating lifestyle also reinforced those stereotypes due to the lack of communication with local populations.

This seems to have been at least part of some of the events I've looked at but by no means a major factor (up to now).
It'll be interesting to see how (if) those stereotypes develop as cause of events as I wander through history.

The official persecutions of the Jews began only in 1856, when Roumania adopted the representative system and the power thus fell into the hands of the bourgeois class. Thenceforth restrictive measures grew more serious. The Jews could not obtain any rank, they were deprived of the right of permanent domicile in country places, they were forbidden to hold real estateexcept in citiesor lands, or vineyards. They were prohibited to take estates on lease, to keep hotels and taverns outside of cities, to retail spirits, to have Christian domestics, to build new synagogues. What were, what are still the causes of this special legislation, and of this animosity of the Roumanians towards the Jews? They are not exclusively religious, and despite the persistence of ancestral prejudices, it is not a case of a confessional war. The Roumanian Jews constituted, especially at the moment of the formation of Roumania, agglomerations completely isolated from the bulk of the population in the Moldau-Valachian lands. They wore a special garb, lived in quarters set apart in order to escape contaminations, and spoke a Judaeo-German jargon, which rounded off their marks of distinction. They lived under the domination of their rabbis, narrow-minded, limited, ignorant Talmudists, from whom they received in Jewish schoolshederan education which was conducive to their intellectual abasement and their degradation. They were the victims of this isolation which was due to their guides, the rabbinists. The patriotic passions were particularly aroused in this land, which was being born, was acquiring a[103] nationality and striving for unity. There has been a pan-Roumanism, just like pan-Germanism or pan-Slavism. There were discussions on the Roumanian race, on its integrity, its purity, the danger threatening it from adulteration. Associations were formed to counteract foreign encroachment, and Jewish encroachment in particular.

Internet History Sourcebooks Project

 

[ima]

Just a question: how can you have a serious debate when posts keep getting deleted?

 

[richstacy]

False stereotypes about Judaism were prevalent in the Middle Ages and Ashkenazi Jews lived in Europe with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, which served to maintain their ethnic identity while living in exile for 2,000 years. But their self-segregating lifestyle also reinforced those stereotypes due to the lack of communication with local populations.

This seems to have been at least part of some of the events I've looked at but by no means a major factor (up to now).
It'll be interesting to see how (if) those stereotypes develop as cause of events as I wander through history.

The official persecutions of the Jews began only in 1856, when Roumania adopted the representative system and the power thus fell into the hands of the bourgeois class. Thenceforth restrictive measures grew more serious. The Jews could not obtain any rank, they were deprived of the right of permanent domicile in country places, they were forbidden to hold real estateexcept in citiesor lands, or vineyards. They were prohibited to take estates on lease, to keep hotels and taverns outside of cities, to retail spirits, to have Christian domestics, to build new synagogues. What were, what are still the causes of this special legislation, and of this animosity of the Roumanians towards the Jews? They are not exclusively religious, and despite the persistence of ancestral prejudices, it is not a case of a confessional war. The Roumanian Jews constituted, especially at the moment of the formation of Roumania, agglomerations completely isolated from the bulk of the population in the Moldau-Valachian lands. They wore a special garb, lived in quarters set apart in order to escape contaminations, and spoke a Judaeo-German jargon, which rounded off their marks of distinction. They lived under the domination of their rabbis, narrow-minded, limited, ignorant Talmudists, from whom they received in Jewish schoolshederan education which was conducive to their intellectual abasement and their degradation. They were the victims of this isolation which was due to their guides, the rabbinists. The patriotic passions were particularly aroused in this land, which was being born, was acquiring a[103] nationality and striving for unity. There has been a pan-Roumanism, just like pan-Germanism or pan-Slavism. There were discussions on the Roumanian race, on its integrity, its purity, the danger threatening it from adulteration. Associations were formed to counteract foreign encroachment, and Jewish encroachment in particular.

Internet History Sourcebooks Project

Of course countless acts of hatred toward Jews had gone on for many centuries before your "official persecution" began in 1856.

http://antisemitism.org.il/article/77447/blood-libel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anti-Semitism

 

[Coyote]

Just a question: how can you have a serious debate when posts keep getting deleted?

Ima, this is the Clean Debate Zone. If anyone is confused, read up on the rules and consider responses carefully. This is the most moderated zone, there are other less moderated areas for uncivil serious debate.

Baiting with no relevant content, name calling, inflammatory responses belong elsewhere.

 

[ima]

Just a question: how can you have a serious debate when posts keep getting deleted?

Ima, this is the Clean Debate Zone. If anyone is confused, read up on the rules and consider responses carefully. This is the most moderated zone, there are other less moderated areas for uncivil serious debate.

Baiting with no relevant content, name calling, inflammatory responses belong elsewhere.

Ok, didn't know that the debate here is supposed to be edited, anyways, I was just responding to someone else's post that also got erased. Thanks.

 

[Kalki]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.

I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.

All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is human nature. People are comfortable with their own kind. This identification can be with people who share the same ideology, genetic traits, temperament, etc.

Most people are not comfortable with people who are not of their own kind, in these ways. People who are against racism, are not comfortable with people who are not, even if they are of the same genetic patterns, for example - this is due to the anti-racist being uncomfortable with the racist, and vice versa, or discomfort from "the other" regarding ideologies.

That is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for the escalation of the being-uncomfortable developing into verbal assertion, and/or acting on that discomfort.

Look at the governments and authorities of the world: they act like tribes, even when they are dealing with their "cousins" in another nation or any nation. Look at the social events in your community, there are always people who do not like each other and the feeling is often mutual, even from the same ideology group, and same tribe or family. This exists everywhere.

Jews have been without a land of their own since Tisha B'av AM 3892 when the Romans crushed the Bar Kokhba's revolt; destroyed the 2nd temple; banned Jews from Judah and changed the name to Syrian Palestine to wipe the name of Judah of the map. The Romans had already expelled Jews from Rome in 139 BCE, 19 CE, and 41-54 CE. Then, the Romans had three revolts of Jews in 70 CE, 115-117 CE, and finally the Bar Kokhba Revolt. The diaspora had already happened long before the Roman dispersal, however. Jews were all over the ancient world before Judah was destroyed.

Prior to the forced removal from Judah, Jews had been expelled from Egypt in 1313 BCE; deported from Canaan in 722 BCE by the Assyrians; deported again and held captive in 597 BCE by the Babylonians; almost experienced massacre from the Persians in 520 BCE, but mass murdered the enemies instead.

A list was presented of 109 places (or times) Jews have been expelled from in less than 2000 years, earlier in the thread. The list was not complete, in the sense that Jews were persecuted many more times in that span and many times long before the first listing of Carthage.

Jews have kept themselves alive as a people without a separate piece of land throughout history for over 3300 years. The only way this is possible is by holding oneself or one's group separate from the society. It is impossible to do this without having a strong ethnic identity and a strong desire to retain that ethnic identity at all costs. In other words, the basis of racism. Notice, racism has taken on a negative meaning only in the past 40 years or so, but prior to that it was considered a virtue, and still is among many people of all tribes, including Jews.

Therefore, the problem is not one of blaming either side for being racist, because both sides were and are, and it wasn't always about the ethnic identity, it could also include the ideology differences.

This type of discussion today is not easy to have, because the ruling powers will only allow the discussion to go in the direction of what the people who regulate speech, want it to go in. It is no longer possible to criticize Jews in the West. Jews are free to criticize whites, because the people who control the public dialogue no longer identify with 'being-white' or 'being-Christian' or 'being'-whatever' and they do not mind if Jews retain their identity, or they do not dare to speak up and if that is the case it means they lost power over their nations. Jews are still free to retain their identity and Jews will do so, but the West is no longer allowed to retain their identity. Jews will be here in 3300 more years, but whites will not exist, neither will Christians. Did white people invent and teach themselves that it is wrong to have an identity? Or did someone else do this to them? The immigration policies of the authorities in the Western nations are guaranteed to bring about the destruction of the identity of those nations, and this is not an accident. Israel is however an ethnic state, along with most other non-Western nations. See the coerced immigration policies in the West, for example.

There were different reasons given for the pogroms and expulsions and such of Jews, throughout history. Primarily the base of it was being different and retaining that difference for 3000 years. However, there were some common complaints:

1) Jews instigate revolts and rebellions against the authorities and hold themselves separate. See, e.g., the statements made by the Roman statesmen, the National Socialists, the Russian czars, Henry Ford, Eustace Mullins, Francisco Franco, Voltaire, Nesta Webster, Hilaire Belloc, A.N. Field, Diodorus Siculus, Benjamin Freedman, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Philostratus, Tacitus, Cicero, Dennis Wise, Thomas Goodrich, and many others.

"In everything we are destroyers - even in the instruments of destruction to which we turn for relief [...] We Jews, we, the destroyers forever. Nothing that you will do will meet our needs or demands" ('You Gentiles' by Maurice Samuel).
Maurice Samuel

"We must realize that our Party's most powerful weapon is racial tension. By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races that for centuries they have been oppressed by the whites, we can mold them to the program of the communist party. In America, we will aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro minority against the whites, we will instill into the whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negroes. We will aid the Negroes to rise in prominence in every walk of life, in the professions and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the Negroe will be able to intermarry with the whites, and begin a process which will deliver America into our hands" ("A Racial Program for the Twentieth Century", and entered into the US Congressional Record, 1957, page 8559 by Israel Cohen).

"Thus, it would seem as if the grievance of the anti-Semite were well founded; the Jewish spirit is essentially a revolutionary spirit, and consciously or otherwise, the Jew is a revolutionist. The tendencies of his nature and direction of his sympathies made it inevitable that the Jew should play an important part in the revolutions of history; and such a part he has not failed to play" ('Antisemitism, Its History and Causes' by Bernard Lazare).

2) Jews are not like "us" whichever nation that was, e.g., Christians (forced conversions) or Libyans (Gaddafi expelled them from Libya in 1970) or Blacks (Haiti and slave plantation nations in Caribbean) or Whites (Europe).

"Anti-semitism is nothing but the antagonistic attitude produced in the non-Jew by the Jewish group [...] The Jewish group has thrived on opposition and on the antagonism it has forever met in the world [...] The Jew who abandons his faith [...] remains a Jew" - Albert Einstein, quoted in 'Collier's', November 26, 1938

"The Jew remains a Jew even though he changes his religion; a Christian which would adopt the Jewish religion would not become a Jew, because the quality of a Jew is not in the religion but in the race. A Free-thinker and atheist always remains a Jew" (Jewish World, December 14, 1922).

3) Jews are morally inferior, oftentimes with allegations of spreading the plague or poisoning wells and such, see, e.g., "This worship, however introduced, is upheld by its antiquity; all their other customs, which are at once perverse and disgusting, owe their strength to their very badness. The most degraded out of other races, scorning their national beliefs, brought to them their contributions and presents. This augmented the wealth of the Jews, as also did the fact, that among themselves they are inflexibly honest and ever ready to shew compassion, though they regard the rest of mankind with all the hatred of enemies [...] While the East was under the sway of the Assyrians, the Medes, and the Persians, Jews were the most contemptible of the subject tribes. When the Macedonians became supreme, King Antiochus strove to destroy the national superstition, and to introduce Greek civilization, but was prevented by his war with the Parthians from at all improving this vilest of nations" ('The History' 5 by Cornelius Tacitus).

4) Jews control capitalism. See Henry Ford and Nesta Webster, as examples, and countless others.

"When we sink, we become a revolutionary proletariat, the subordinate officers of all revolutionary parties; and at the same time, when we rise, there rises also our terrible power of the purse" ('The Jewish State' by Theodor Herzl).

5) Jews control communism. See, e.g., ""The Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish planning and Jewish dissatisfaction. Our plan is to have a New World Order. What worked so wonderfully in Russia, is going to become reality for the whole world" (The American Hebrew Magazine September 10,1920).

"By means of terror and bloodbaths, we shall reduce the Russian intelligentsia to a state of complete stupefaction and idiocy and to an animal existence [...] At the moment, our young men in their leather jackets, who are the sons of watchmakers from Odessa, Orsha, Gomel and Vinnitsa, know how to hate everything Russian! What pleasure they take in physically destroying the Russian intelligentsia - officers, academics and writers!” - Leon Trotsky

6) Jews own the banks and news media. See, e.g., Ezra Pound, Eustace Mullins, Julius Evola, Adolf Hitler, Henry Ford and countless others. Here is an old example: "At the end of every seven years thou shalt make a release. And this is the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth ought unto his neighbour shall release it; he shall not exact it of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the LORD'S release. Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it again: but that which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release; Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the LORD shall greatly bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it: Only if thou carefully hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all these commandments which I command thee this day. For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt rule over many nations, but they shall not rule over you" (Deuteronomy 15.1-6).

7) Jews seek world domination waiting for the messiah to rule the earth, see e.g., "Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judæa, were to acquire universal empire" ('The History' by Cornelius Tacitus). "The Jewish people as a whole will be its own Messiah. It will attain world domination by the dissolution of other races...and by the establishment of a world republic in which everywhere the Jews will exercise the privilege of citizenship. In this New World Order the Children of Israel...will furnish all the leaders without encountering opposition..." -Karl Marx in a letter to Baruch Levy, quoted in Review de Paris, June 1, 1928, p. 574'

8) Jews seek to destroy the people whose nations they inhabit, see e.g., "The white women must cohabit with members of the dark races, white men with black women. Thus the white race will disappear, for mixing the dark with the white means the end of the white man, our most dangerous enemy will become a memory. We shall embark upon an era of 10,000 years of peace and plenty, Pax Judaica, and our race will rule undisputed over the world. Our superior intelligence will easily enable us to retain mastery over a world of dark peoples." -Rabbi Rabinovich, 1958
“…The goal of abolishing the white race is on its face so desirable that some may find it hard to believe that it could incur any opposition other than from committed white supremacists…
…Keep bashing the dead white males, and the live ones, and the females, too, until the social construct known as the white race is destroyed. Not deconstructed, but destroyed.” - Noel Ignatiev, Jew Harvard professor and founder of Race Traitor.
“We Jews regard our race as superior to all humanity, and look forward, not to its ultimate union with other races, but to its triumph over them.” - Goldwin Smith, Jewish Professor of Modern History at Oxford University, October, 1981
“We Jews have spoiled the blood of all the races of Europe. Taken as a whole, everything is Jewdified. Our ideas animate everything. Our spirit reigns over the world. We are the Lords.” - Dr. Kurt Munzer, “The Way to Zion.”

9) Jews do not hold any allegiances to the people they are among except their own tribe, is another accusation; that they are International, see e.g., Henry Ford and Adolf Hitler and Bobby Fisher and numerous others.

"I believe national pride is a lot of nonsense" (Chicago Tribune, September 25, 1935 - Bernard Baruch).

" A childish weakness of grand style is the name I would give to the love of one's country" ('Talmudic Chrestomatia' by Rabbi Bernard Fiscer).

10) Jews are responsible for the wars is another claim. For example, see the Oded Yinon Plan and the Rothschild literature, 'The Greatest Story Never Told', and other texts, or:

"Hitler will have no war, but he will be forced into it, not this year but later" ('Les Annales', June 1934 by Emil Ludwig.

"Whenever an American or a Filipino fell at Bataan or Corregidor or at any other of the now historic spots where MacArthur's men put up their remarkable fight, their survivors could have said with truth: 'The real reason that boy went to his death, was because Hitler's anti-Semitic movement succeeded in Germany'" (The American Hebrew, July 24, 1942).

"The millions of Jews who live in America, England and France, North and South Africa, and, not to forget those in Palestine, are determined to bring the war of annihilation against Germany to its final end." (Central Blad Voor Israeliten in Nederland, September 13, 1939)

"Our fight against Germany must be carried to the limit of what is possible. Israel has been attacked. Let us, therefore, defend Israel! Against the awakened Germany, we put an awakened Israel. And the world will defend us" ('Epitres aux Juifs by Pierre Creange 1938).

"Judea declares War on Germany" (Daily Express, March 24, 1934).

"The fight against Germany has now been waged for months by every Jewish community, on every conference, in all labor unions and by every single Jew in the world. There are reasons for the assumption that our share in this fight is of general importance. We shall start a spiritual and material war of the whole world against Germany. Germany is striving to become once again a great nation, and to recover her lost territories as well as her colonies. But our Jewish interests call for the complete destruction of Germany" (Mascha Rjetsch by Valadimir Jabotinsky, January 1934).


200 million people were murdered in the 20th century by governments. It does not seem human nature changes and so it can only get worse, especially when the natural resources start dwindling down. There have already been many mass murders in the 21st century in Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, and other places. Not including the violence by individuals.

So, as you can see, there were a number of reasons or complaints given, by people when they targeted Jews or discussed the Jewish question.

Hope this helps.

 

[320 Years of History]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.

I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.

All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure where to begin and I haven't nearly enough time to address all the different events in the timeline you referenced. I'm also curious why you chose a timeline that began in the 2nd century A.D? The persecution/disdain for Jews dates at least to period of the Exodus. Were you largely focused on expulsions? I have to ask in order to get some clarity seeing as you point us to a litany of expulsions, yet the thing you ask about is hate. The two do not have to go together. For example, one can be sure that the Canaanites hated the Jews plenty when they arrived from Egypt and decided to go to war over the Land of Canaan -- land that the Canaanites were quite content having to themselves -- because that was supposedly the land God had declared to be theirs, their "land of milk and honey." More likely is that Moses and the other Jewish generals realized they could defeat the Canaanites in battle, and that is what made it be the place God had made for the Jews who'd traipsed all the way from Egypt. Whatever the case, it wasn't the Jews who were expelled, but they were surely hated right then and there.

I'm also not sure how detailed an answer you want. Are you asking for something more precise than the same things that make for hatred between other identity groups? Are you desirous of historical accounts for each of the events in the timeline and specific reasons for each of those major displays of disdain for Jews? Something other than those things?

I can tell you that the Jews are easily and readily identifiable as an identity group that has suffered a lot of persecution over the millennia in large measure not only for the age old basics like greed and envy, but also for one big reason for much of Western history: Jews were Jewish and the folks in power were not.

Jews have been around for a very, very long time. In Western culture, I don't know of any other globally dispersed and more or less unified identity group that was around in the time of the Pharaohs, and that is still around today. For the overwhelming majority of recorded history, religion and religious belief formed the basis for establishing and maintaining political and civil control as well as social cohesiveness. And for as long as there have been Jews, the Jews have not been the most powerful power in the known world, and never have they been willingly and religiously syncretistic to any extent considered acceptable by the power elite at the time.

Quite simply when one is Jewish, or Muslim, or whatever and the "powers that be" are not, one is feared, seen as a threat to the status quo, hated, and persecuted, mainly because one's differing faith-based belief system poses a threat to the folks holding sway under whatever is their belief system. That Judaism provides not only provides guidelines and requirements for how one interacts with God, but also has them for how one goes about one's daily existence, and has laws, some of which may conflict with the laws the folks in power wanted to impose/enforce, it's not surprising that Jews got the short end of the stick.

Over the years Jews have been kicked out of one place and en masse arrived in another place. In neither place were the powers that be Jewish, so in neither place did Jews really "fit in." And make no mistake, the idea of "fitting in just enough" but by and large retaining one's own core identity and mores is mostly a 20th century one, and even there, we're not particularly good at adhering to the principles of it. Looking at the 2nd century expulsion of Jews from Carthage, one need only ask where did those Jews come from that they were in Carthage to be expelled. Basically, about 30K of them arrived in Carthage and the surrounding area in 70 A.D. when Titus expelled them from Judea in the First Roman-Jewish war.