A Sane Discourse on the Lack of Reason On Both the Left and Right

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by menewa
I'm glad you posted this KA.

I've been dwelling on this issue for a while in my own mind. For simplification, we like to place people in one category or another. Liberal and Conservative serve as quick and convenient categories.

However, just in the short time I've spent on the USMB, I quickly realized how many more shades of political leanings actually exists. Look at the differences b/t DK and Bully or between Bid D and gop_jeff. Although we categorize them as liberals and conservatives, respectively, in reality, there are vast gulfs of differences between how these posters respond to various political, social and religious issues.

This lib vs. con battle works to the detriment of our Republic. It makes us feel as if we have only two sides to choose from. When, in reality, we are much more complex than that and we need political leaders and political discourse that reflects this complexity in voter thought.

Wrong, menewa. It's all actually very simple. Libs just like to obscure their wrongness in needless complexity, to make it seem"more intellectual", like they were taught at college. It's simple. There's a world war on between shariah law and freedom; Which side are you on?

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
There's a world war on between shariah law and freedom; Which side are you on?

Exactamundo senor! (btw - i'm on the side of freedom!)

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by menewa
I'm glad you posted this KA.

I've been dwelling on this issue for a while in my own mind. For simplification, we like to place people in one category or another. Liberal and Conservative serve as quick and convenient categories.

However, just in the short time I've spent on the USMB, I quickly realized how many more shades of political leanings actually exists. Look at the differences b/t DK and Bully or between Bid D and gop_jeff. Although we categorize them as liberals and conservatives, respectively, in reality, there are vast gulfs of differences between how these posters respond to various political, social and religious issues.

This lib vs. con battle works to the detriment of our Republic. It makes us feel as if we have only two sides to choose from. When, in reality, we are much more complex than that and we need political leaders and political discourse that reflects this complexity in voter thought.

What I want to know is with this scale, where do I fall? Hmmmm

 

[NATO AIR]

I am a Republican, but the drift of my party into the realm of Christian fundamentalism has been very disturbing to me. It has cost the GOP my support on some issues, as well as contributing to my concerns about Bush. In essence, I have heard another poster say this, but its true for me as well, Eisenhower and Reagan showed us Republicans what our religious pillars should be, albeit in different ways. Bush on the other hand seems to embrace this fundamentalism in a way that is disturbing to me. i dislike the 700 club, and its well known that the main loudmouth there, Pat Robertson, is one of the most corrupt religious men there ever was (this a man who stood by Charles Taylor, the murderous dictator, war criminal and mobster who ruined West Africa)

on the left, there are many bad elements as well. these are all very well known to most though, so i don't need to talk about them.

the center of the country is losing in the battle of revelance. this is sad, and hopefully somehow it can be halted and reversed.

i do think one thing is bright on the horizion, the rise of progressive Christianity (i.e. religion from the centre-left) is happening and will continue. hopefully they will drain much of the christian conservative element and help move the democrats further to revelance on religious issues)

 

[Comrade]

I don't find the comparison fair whatsoever.

What concerns me is the outspoken proponents of the Democratic party who have recently supported Michael Moore, along with his clear popularity with the American left as a hallmark of their ideology. The support for his views from the left has been massive and un-opposed whatsoever.

You cannot find any relative right wing political backing for someone just as extreme on the other end. Pat Robertson and his policies of U.S. isolation today strike more of a chord with the left along with the Islamists and anti-Zionists of today, while the GOP remains steadfast in support of a policy which I personally find more along the lines of the Governator of today, who will indeed take a front seat and key role in the GOP convention soon to hit our local channels.

The sheer desperation of the anti-Bush crowd has led them as a flock to support en-masse the most extreme view of the left per Michael Moore. They are either ignorant or willfully negligent in moderating their own politics.

This disgusts me.

 

[NATO AIR]

pat robertson and his vocal support for the war criminal charles taylor showcase how far down the once mighty christian conservatives have fallen.

Indicted war criminal charles taylor, who initiated the 10 year civil war in Sierra Leonne that took the lives of hundreds of thousands, all in order to expand and protect his criminal enterprise (trafficking diamonds), has a $2 million dollar bounty on his head thanks to Pres. Bush (thank you Mr. President), who has rightfully called Taylor a monster and a war criminal.

this is a man who trained, equipped and sent in a rebel force (the RUF) that used perhaps the most disturbing, sick tactics of any insurgency in the late 20th century. the RUF was famous for pillaging villages, raping most of the women, cutting off the limbs of men, women, children and even babies. all this so taylor's wealth could increase from the diamond trade he lusted after.

one more thing about taylor and robertson, business partners... it is now known that Hezbollah and Al-Queda traded money for "conflict diamonds" before Sept. 11th, and their represenatives for these deals recieved special treatment from charles taylor and his thuggish regime. so before we could freeze al-queda's assets, they liquidated a good amount of them into untraceable diamonds, thanks to mr. robertson's friend charles taylor.

“How dare the president of the United States say to the duly elected president of another country, 'You've got to step down,'" Robertson said Monday on “The 700 Club,” broadcast from his Christian Broadcasting Network.
Robertson, a Bush supporter who has financial interests in Liberia, said he believes the State Department has “mismanaged the situation in nation after nation after nation” in Africa.
Robertson told The Washington Post in an interview published Thursday that he has “written off in my own mind” an $8 million investment in a Liberian gold mining venture he made four years ago, under an agreement with Taylor's government.

(from http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/11/national/main562915.shtml )

just for mr. robertson and his ilk, that's tantamount to supporting a criminal regime responsible for mass murder, rape, deploying drugged up child soldiers, arms smuggling and mass mutilation of innocent people. and then even worse, robertson defends the war criminal taylor. hmm? what does this say about his christian morals? about his real priorities? about his legitimacy?

 

[5stringJeff]

I had never heard of this before. I am certainly no fan of Charles Taylor... he's no better than Saddam in my book. If Pat Robertson is making money off his regime, than he is no better than Jacques Chirac making money off the Iraqi oil-for-food program.

 

[freeandfun1]

Nato

I agree with some of what you said. As far as Pat Robertson, I don't like him or his style. However, having said that, one thing to keep in mind is this....

The war between Islam and many other religions, has been going on for decades. It just hasn't really been covered that much by the media until 911. They would report on the various wars, riots, etc., but the media never would delve into the details. For example, did you know that in 1969 the Muslims in Malaysia went on a rampage killing over 10,000 catholic and buddist Chinese and Hindu Indians? Did you know that Lebanon was once over 80% christian and now it is less than 10%?

I bring this up because Robertson's main reason for supporting Taylor was because under Taylor, Christianity at least had a chance of survival in Liberia. Sure, I don't agree with the method, but I undestand the reason. We need to wake up and realize that frankly, this new war is really not that new. We, the USA, just never admitted it existed until 911. And frankly, we still don't admit it is a religious war and in many parts of the world the media still isn't reporting the religious fighting that is taking place all over the world. Places like the Philippines, Indonesia, throughout Africa (including Liberia), in Thailand, sections of China, in India, Pakistan, etc., etc., etc.

 

[NATO AIR]

btw.. michael moore is a big fat idiot with an ego bigger than his substantial gut, he had potential perhaps as a pretty good proponent for folks who lost their jobs and way of living, but now he's gone hollywood, hanging out with alec baldwin too much

on pat robertson:

gop_jeff... here are some links on what happened

from his own website, robertson showcases a sad confusion/ignorance of the monster taylor was (and everyone's known it from the beginning) and what his regime was doing in liberia and in sierra leonne.

http://www.pat-robertson.com/PressReleases/taylor.asp

http://www.theperspective.org/patrobertson_taylor.html
this has some rather damning information about robertson's biz practices with taylor

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/002/14.18.html
the end of this is damning... (this matthews fellow is affiliated with the company robertson owns, freedom gold)

Mathews acknowledged that the Liberian government will receive 10 percent of Freedom Gold's stock when the company goes public.

Mathews said Freedom Gold probably would not generate much income before 2004. In the meantime, it seems to have hit a rich vein of controversy.


and finally, from a christianitytoday.com weblog, more proof of just how far off and out there robertson was and is

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/127/48.0.html


now please indulge me for a moment... i've seen firsthand what the RUF and Liberian forces did to people in Sierra Leonne.... seeing a 3 year old child with no arms and 1 leg, a dying sex slave with 4 starving children, wonderful children who sit quiet, limbs lacked off, unable to play soccer, draw or even be on their own for very long.... this is what you're dealing with with Taylor. and the guy was helping Al-Queda and Hezbollah liquidate their money so the US/EU couldn't freeze their assets.

 

[NATO AIR]

oh yea and to make clear i'm not just bashing robertson, let's bring jesse jackson on in here for doing the same crap robertson did.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/baroneweb/mb_011112.htm

In a lengthy and well-documented article in the July 2000 New Republic, Ryan Lizza describes how Taylor's regime has had the enthusiastic and effective support of Jesse Jackson. As Bill Clinton's special envoy to Africa, Jackson in late 1998 pressed the president of Sierra Leone to "reach out" to Sankoh–"a man," Lizza wrote, "who built his Revolutionary United Front (RUF) by systematically kidnapping children and forcing them to murder their parents. ... Once children were conscripted, their loyalty was maintained through drugs–they were injected with speed, which numbed their sensitivity to violence and rendered them dependent on their adult suppliers–and violence. When conscripts tried to escape, RUF leaders amputated their limbs. Refugees even accused the RUF of cannibalism." Taylor, who had taken power by starting a rebellion in Liberia in 1989 and building his own Small Boys Unit, had gone to the same revolutionary school as Sankoh.

 

[menewa]

Originally posted by NATO AIR
oh yea and to make clear i'm not just bashing robertson, let's bring jesse jackson on in here for doing the same crap robertson did.

Did you ever read Greg Palast's book, "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy?"

His investigative reporting uncovered a horrid scam commited by Pat Robertson. He found Robertson using donations meant to feed starving Africans being spent instead on funding a diamond mine in Africa. Palast also presents a host of other improprieties committed by this former reverand.

http://www.gregpalast.com/columns.cfm?subject_id=13&subject_name=Pat Robertson