CDZ A Rundown on the Players in Syria

[Fishlore]

The "moderate" opposition are Sunni supporters of the Chechens.

Until the Russian jet was brought in Sinai by ISIS the "moderates" were target number one with a bullet and quite rightly so.

ISIS is trying to set up a caliphate in the traditional Islamic homeland of the first four Caliphs which does not include Europe or Russia. The downing of a passenger jet in that area by ISIS while annoying should have been anticipated by the Russian Foreign and/or Defense minister. It was not.

The attack in Paris changed things and moved ISIS higher up the target list.

The Russian bomber was fired upon and hit while it was Syrian airspace and that according to the Turks.

ISIS is a cash cow for Turkey and that was the reason for the attack.

Turkey now either gives up its cash cow or gets its butt kicked by Russia and France.

And that is the situation now.

Step back and take a satellite view of the conflict over the centuries. ISIS is the latest brand of Muslim resistance to Christian aggression, an aggression that has been going on since the Christian team got the ball back at the Battle of Tours with quarterback Charles Martel.

It is a cultural blindness of the West to see that while ISIS has used a bloody-minded theology to justify resisting Western encroachment, we have done exactly the same thing. It is a very human pattern to fight outsiders and to explain and justify the defense by an ideology that has religious roots.

France rejected Turkey's entrance into the EU because Turkey is not a Christian nation. The pope led the rejectionist effort. Denied the opportunity (very rare in history) to switch sides, Turkey is returning to its Muslim roots.

Bottom line: if you don't want war and terrorism, stay out of the other guy's yard.

ISIS is just a gang formed by Saddam's former Iraqi Republican Guards or whatever they were called, that Bush was too weak to eradicate; they're just Baathists with a nifty new title. The major 'problem' in the ME now is the Iranian axis; bombing ISIS doesn't do much of anything. Getting rid of Assad, Hezboolaboola, and provoke a coup in Iran and the most of the rest of it just fades away.

Pretending 'da Evul Xians iz just as bad' gibberish is of course just ridiculous propaganda nonsense only cranks buy into.

To dismiss ISIS as "just a gang" is a mistake that, if we continue to make it, is going to cost the lives of thousands of Americans at home and abroad. The historical origins of a movement don't explain its subsequent development. Christianity, after all, was just a dozen or so fisherman in the Galilee at the beginning.

ISIS has spread far beyond western Iraq, exerting influence and projecting force as far away as Libya, Nigeria and Somalia. Much more important than the original founders are the factors which have caused it to spread like wildfire. It has replaced Qaeda. If all we do is kill off its leaders, it will be replaced in turn. But much more important, as long as the reasons for its success are not addressed, it will continue and it will grow. Scratching doesn't cure poison ivy either.

 

[baileyn45]

I posted this in another thread. This has to be the most convoluted mess ever. Although I did change something that was wrong. Of course this sin't exactly an academic treatise just a rant.

Lets see you you have moderate anti Assad fighters(quit laughing there are probably a couple) who are fighting Assad and isis.
- Other islamists al nusra and the like fighting with the mods against Assad and isis.
- Assad forces fighting the mods, nusra, isis and almost turkey.
- the Kurds fighting isis, turkey and apparently not openly yet but vary wary of iran
- iraq fighting isis, royally pissed at turkey, have internal divisions between shia and sunni and not particularly fond of the kurds. oh and they don't like Assad.
- hezbollah fighting isis with Irans backing,and not very fond of any of the sunnis
- Iran supporting hezbollah, at times the kurds(for the moment), and iraqs shia which of course worries iraqs sunnis as well as all the other sunnis.
- bombing of isis by US, Britain, France, assad forces, formerly canadians, i think the aussies have gotten involved - bombing of isis and mods/al nusra by russia and of course occasionally fuel trucks heading for turkey. wary of the US & allies
- turkey backing & buying oil from isis to fight the kurds and worried about shia iran/hezbollah
- the US supporting the mods, nusra and supposedly inadvertenly isis. at odds with russia, looking to topple Assad. Have ME allies funding isis. worried about iran, hezbollah, nusra. .supposedly pissed at turkey but is a nato ally. praying the Isrealis stay out of it.
- saudis & other gulf countries supplying anti Assad forces and most seem to believe funding isis as a counter to iran
- lebanon has hezbollah and is a major conduit for supplies to anti assad forces from sunni gulf states while gulf states supply funding to anti shia/iran isis.
- germans showing up to do something, not sure what

I'm sure I forgot some one.

Then there's the why.

-The mods want assad, isis, iran, hezbollah, russia, turkey gone to run democratic country. Would probably lose the first election 14,000,000 to 8
- al nusra wants to get rid of assad, isis and eventually the mods. institute sharia.
- hezbollah/lebanon wants rid of assad, isis, nusra and eventually the mods, establish shia crescent as barrier to sunnis/saudi
- iraq wants isis dead is schizzo on saudi/sunni vs iran/shia wants turkey, russia out, assad dead
- iran wants shia control as buffer to sunni/saudi. wants to shut up kurds. and piss off/spit at US,
- turkey couldn't give rats ass about syria wants isis to keep kurds busy while erdogans family makes money off of oil shipped by isis. probably barking up wrong tree with russians.
-saudis/allies want assad dead, sunnis in control as buffer to iran/shia
- Russians couldn't give rats ass about syria want isis, mods, nusra dead. wants to block oil/nat gas pipeline thru area. having fun trying out new weapons, spitting at the US, looking macho back home. siding with shia vs sunni to counter opec rival saudi. Keeping western powers busy while reestablishing control over former soviet block. Waiting for photo op of bare chested Putin sitting on cruise missile.
- US & allies want assad, isis, al nusra dead. want iran, russia, hezbollah out. Want turkey to shut up, kurds to fight
isis, nusra but not mods and turkey and then shut up. want sunni control as buffer to iran/shia and to piss off russians and put oil/gas pipeline through area. Want iraq to stop being sunni vs shia schizzo. want mods to set up democratic govt patterned after New Jersey.
- isis wants to kill & rape everyone, destroy the world, die, get 72 virgins.

- Oh and all parties other than US and allies, kill the jews.

 

[Tehon]

I posted this in another thread. This has to be the most convoluted mess ever. Although I did change something that was wrong. Of course this sin't exactly an academic treatise just a rant.

Lets see you you have moderate anti Assad fighters(quit laughing there are probably a couple) who are fighting Assad and isis.
- Other islamists al nusra and the like fighting with the mods against Assad and isis.
- Assad forces fighting the mods, nusra, isis and almost turkey.
- the Kurds fighting isis, turkey and apparently not openly yet but vary wary of iran
- iraq fighting isis, royally pissed at turkey, have internal divisions between shia and sunni and not particularly fond of the kurds. oh and they don't like Assad.
- hezbollah fighting isis with Irans backing,and not very fond of any of the sunnis
- Iran supporting hezbollah, at times the kurds(for the moment), and iraqs shia which of course worries iraqs sunnis as well as all the other sunnis.
- bombing of isis by US, Britain, France, assad forces, formerly canadians, i think the aussies have gotten involved - bombing of isis and mods/al nusra by russia and of course occasionally fuel trucks heading for turkey. wary of the US & allies
- turkey backing & buying oil from isis to fight the kurds and worried about shia iran/hezbollah
- the US supporting the mods, nusra and supposedly inadvertenly isis. at odds with russia, looking to topple Assad. Have ME allies funding isis. worried about iran, hezbollah, nusra. .supposedly pissed at turkey but is a nato ally. praying the Isrealis stay out of it.
- saudis & other gulf countries supplying anti Assad forces and most seem to believe funding isis as a counter to iran
- lebanon has hezbollah and is a major conduit for supplies to anti assad forces from sunni gulf states while gulf states supply funding to anti shia/iran isis.
- germans showing up to do something, not sure what

I'm sure I forgot some one.

Then there's the why.

-The mods want assad, isis, iran, hezbollah, russia, turkey gone to run democratic country. Would probably lose the first election 14,000,000 to 8
- al nusra wants to get rid of assad, isis and eventually the mods. institute sharia.
- hezbollah/lebanon wants rid of assad, isis, nusra and eventually the mods, establish shia crescent as barrier to sunnis/saudi
- iraq wants isis dead is schizzo on saudi/sunni vs iran/shia wants turkey, russia out, assad dead
- iran wants shia control as buffer to sunni/saudi. wants to shut up kurds. and piss off/spit at US,
- turkey couldn't give rats ass about syria wants isis to keep kurds busy while erdogans family makes money off of oil shipped by isis. probably barking up wrong tree with russians.
-saudis/allies want assad dead, sunnis in control as buffer to iran/shia
- Russians couldn't give rats ass about syria want isis, mods, nusra dead. wants to block oil/nat gas pipeline thru area. having fun trying out new weapons, spitting at the US, looking macho back home. siding with shia vs sunni to counter opec rival saudi. Keeping western powers busy while reestablishing control over former soviet block. Waiting for photo op of bare chested Putin sitting on cruise missile.
- US & allies want assad, isis, al nusra dead. want iran, russia, hezbollah out. Want turkey to shut up, kurds to fight
isis, nusra but not mods and turkey and then shut up. want sunni control as buffer to iran/shia and to piss off russians and put oil/gas pipeline through area. Want iraq to stop being sunni vs shia schizzo. want mods to set up democratic govt patterned after New Jersey.
- isis wants to kill & rape everyone, destroy the world, die, get 72 virgins.

- Oh and all parties other than US and allies, kill the jews.

A point to make here is that the US is the backstop for Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Israel. As such the US has more influence over these States actions than perhaps you are willing to give credit to.

 

[baileyn45]

I posted this in another thread. This has to be the most convoluted mess ever. Although I did change something that was wrong. Of course this sin't exactly an academic treatise just a rant.

Lets see you you have moderate anti Assad fighters(quit laughing there are probably a couple) who are fighting Assad and isis.
- Other islamists al nusra and the like fighting with the mods against Assad and isis.
- Assad forces fighting the mods, nusra, isis and almost turkey.
- the Kurds fighting isis, turkey and apparently not openly yet but vary wary of iran
- iraq fighting isis, royally pissed at turkey, have internal divisions between shia and sunni and not particularly fond of the kurds. oh and they don't like Assad.
- hezbollah fighting isis with Irans backing,and not very fond of any of the sunnis
- Iran supporting hezbollah, at times the kurds(for the moment), and iraqs shia which of course worries iraqs sunnis as well as all the other sunnis.
- bombing of isis by US, Britain, France, assad forces, formerly canadians, i think the aussies have gotten involved - bombing of isis and mods/al nusra by russia and of course occasionally fuel trucks heading for turkey. wary of the US & allies
- turkey backing & buying oil from isis to fight the kurds and worried about shia iran/hezbollah
- the US supporting the mods, nusra and supposedly inadvertenly isis. at odds with russia, looking to topple Assad. Have ME allies funding isis. worried about iran, hezbollah, nusra. .supposedly pissed at turkey but is a nato ally. praying the Isrealis stay out of it.
- saudis & other gulf countries supplying anti Assad forces and most seem to believe funding isis as a counter to iran
- lebanon has hezbollah and is a major conduit for supplies to anti assad forces from sunni gulf states while gulf states supply funding to anti shia/iran isis.
- germans showing up to do something, not sure what

I'm sure I forgot some one.

Then there's the why.

-The mods want assad, isis, iran, hezbollah, russia, turkey gone to run democratic country. Would probably lose the first election 14,000,000 to 8
- al nusra wants to get rid of assad, isis and eventually the mods. institute sharia.
- hezbollah/lebanon wants rid of assad, isis, nusra and eventually the mods, establish shia crescent as barrier to sunnis/saudi
- iraq wants isis dead is schizzo on saudi/sunni vs iran/shia wants turkey, russia out, assad dead
- iran wants shia control as buffer to sunni/saudi. wants to shut up kurds. and piss off/spit at US,
- turkey couldn't give rats ass about syria wants isis to keep kurds busy while erdogans family makes money off of oil shipped by isis. probably barking up wrong tree with russians.
-saudis/allies want assad dead, sunnis in control as buffer to iran/shia
- Russians couldn't give rats ass about syria want isis, mods, nusra dead. wants to block oil/nat gas pipeline thru area. having fun trying out new weapons, spitting at the US, looking macho back home. siding with shia vs sunni to counter opec rival saudi. Keeping western powers busy while reestablishing control over former soviet block. Waiting for photo op of bare chested Putin sitting on cruise missile.
- US & allies want assad, isis, al nusra dead. want iran, russia, hezbollah out. Want turkey to shut up, kurds to fight
isis, nusra but not mods and turkey and then shut up. want sunni control as buffer to iran/shia and to piss off russians and put oil/gas pipeline through area. Want iraq to stop being sunni vs shia schizzo. want mods to set up democratic govt patterned after New Jersey.
- isis wants to kill & rape everyone, destroy the world, die, get 72 virgins.

- Oh and all parties other than US and allies, kill the jews.

A point to make here is that the US is the backstop for Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Israel. As such the US has more influence over these States actions than perhaps you are willing to give credit to.

I'd agree with that particularly in the case of Israel. In the case of Turkey and the Saudis i'm less certain.

In the case of ISIS, perhaps being used as a proxy against Iran, I'd have to wonder if that aligns with US objectives. In addition, it seems to me the Saudis have had no problem turning a blind eye to non state funding of wahabis all over the globe. Again it may at times align with US objectives but not always. I also sometimes wonder how much that influence goes the other way, the US appears to turn a blind eye to wahabi sponsorship as well.

As far as Turkey, Erdogan seems more and more willing to go his own way. It seems to me Turkey is ever so slowly turning to the east. Particularly since I think any thought of joining the EU seems more remote by the day.

The Israelis rely on the US for their very survival. The Saudis as well, but in a sunni dominated area of the world perhaps not as much. The Turks on the other hand can probably sit on the fence and play both sides a little more comfortably.

As i mentioned I posted this ramble on another thread and some one rightly pointed that there is another level to the mess, the tribal ties. Add that to the mix and it would make one hell of who's who chart.

 

[Fishlore]

I posted this in another thread. This has to be the most convoluted mess ever. Although I did change something that was wrong. Of course this sin't exactly an academic treatise just a rant.

Lets see you you have moderate anti Assad fighters(quit laughing there are probably a couple) who are fighting Assad and isis.
- Other islamists al nusra and the like fighting with the mods against Assad and isis.
- Assad forces fighting the mods, nusra, isis and almost turkey.
- the Kurds fighting isis, turkey and apparently not openly yet but vary wary of iran
- iraq fighting isis, royally pissed at turkey, have internal divisions between shia and sunni and not particularly fond of the kurds. oh and they don't like Assad.
- hezbollah fighting isis with Irans backing,and not very fond of any of the sunnis
- Iran supporting hezbollah, at times the kurds(for the moment), and iraqs shia which of course worries iraqs sunnis as well as all the other sunnis.
- bombing of isis by US, Britain, France, assad forces, formerly canadians, i think the aussies have gotten involved - bombing of isis and mods/al nusra by russia and of course occasionally fuel trucks heading for turkey. wary of the US & allies
- turkey backing & buying oil from isis to fight the kurds and worried about shia iran/hezbollah
- the US supporting the mods, nusra and supposedly inadvertenly isis. at odds with russia, looking to topple Assad. Have ME allies funding isis. worried about iran, hezbollah, nusra. .supposedly pissed at turkey but is a nato ally. praying the Isrealis stay out of it.
- saudis & other gulf countries supplying anti Assad forces and most seem to believe funding isis as a counter to iran
- lebanon has hezbollah and is a major conduit for supplies to anti assad forces from sunni gulf states while gulf states supply funding to anti shia/iran isis.
- germans showing up to do something, not sure what

I'm sure I forgot some one.

Then there's the why.

-The mods want assad, isis, iran, hezbollah, russia, turkey gone to run democratic country. Would probably lose the first election 14,000,000 to 8
- al nusra wants to get rid of assad, isis and eventually the mods. institute sharia.
- hezbollah/lebanon wants rid of assad, isis, nusra and eventually the mods, establish shia crescent as barrier to sunnis/saudi
- iraq wants isis dead is schizzo on saudi/sunni vs iran/shia wants turkey, russia out, assad dead
- iran wants shia control as buffer to sunni/saudi. wants to shut up kurds. and piss off/spit at US,
- turkey couldn't give rats ass about syria wants isis to keep kurds busy while erdogans family makes money off of oil shipped by isis. probably barking up wrong tree with russians.
-saudis/allies want assad dead, sunnis in control as buffer to iran/shia
- Russians couldn't give rats ass about syria want isis, mods, nusra dead. wants to block oil/nat gas pipeline thru area. having fun trying out new weapons, spitting at the US, looking macho back home. siding with shia vs sunni to counter opec rival saudi. Keeping western powers busy while reestablishing control over former soviet block. Waiting for photo op of bare chested Putin sitting on cruise missile.
- US & allies want assad, isis, al nusra dead. want iran, russia, hezbollah out. Want turkey to shut up, kurds to fight
isis, nusra but not mods and turkey and then shut up. want sunni control as buffer to iran/shia and to piss off russians and put oil/gas pipeline through area. Want iraq to stop being sunni vs shia schizzo. want mods to set up democratic govt patterned after New Jersey.
- isis wants to kill & rape everyone, destroy the world, die, get 72 virgins.

- Oh and all parties other than US and allies, kill the jews.

A point to make here is that the US is the backstop for Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Israel. As such the US has more influence over these States actions than perhaps you are willing to give credit to.

America seems to be more of a Sugar Daddy than backstop for Israel. We have been wringing our hands and begging for a stop to "settlements" as a necessary pre-condition to any serious "peace talks" for forty years. Netanyahu laughs in our faces as he cashes his welfare check.

 

[Fishlore]

- Oh and all parties other than US and allies, kill the jews.

Actually, the world record for killing Jews is held by Germany with Russia as the runner-up. Did you ever wonder what it is about the Jews that has made so many people from the days of Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar react so violently? The Romans kicked them out of Palestine almost two thousand years ago and our ancestors have been slaughtering them gleefully ever since. Why can't we all just get along?

 

[baileyn45]

- Oh and all parties other than US and allies, kill the jews.

Actually, the world record for killing Jews is held by Germany with Russia as the runner-up. Did you ever wonder what it is about the Jews that has made so many people from the days of Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar react so violently? The Romans kicked them out of Palestine almost two thousand years ago and our ancestors have been slaughtering them gleefully ever since. Why can't we all just get along?

Good question. The strange thing is if you took each pogrom in isolation a different reason would seem to be at fault. Pharaoh a conqueror, the romans worried about insurrection, the nazis looking for a scapegoat. Is it possible to just to in the wrong place at the wrong time so often for so long?

 

[Tehon]

I posted this in another thread. This has to be the most convoluted mess ever. Although I did change something that was wrong. Of course this sin't exactly an academic treatise just a rant.

Lets see you you have moderate anti Assad fighters(quit laughing there are probably a couple) who are fighting Assad and isis.
- Other islamists al nusra and the like fighting with the mods against Assad and isis.
- Assad forces fighting the mods, nusra, isis and almost turkey.
- the Kurds fighting isis, turkey and apparently not openly yet but vary wary of iran
- iraq fighting isis, royally pissed at turkey, have internal divisions between shia and sunni and not particularly fond of the kurds. oh and they don't like Assad.
- hezbollah fighting isis with Irans backing,and not very fond of any of the sunnis
- Iran supporting hezbollah, at times the kurds(for the moment), and iraqs shia which of course worries iraqs sunnis as well as all the other sunnis.
- bombing of isis by US, Britain, France, assad forces, formerly canadians, i think the aussies have gotten involved - bombing of isis and mods/al nusra by russia and of course occasionally fuel trucks heading for turkey. wary of the US & allies
- turkey backing & buying oil from isis to fight the kurds and worried about shia iran/hezbollah
- the US supporting the mods, nusra and supposedly inadvertenly isis. at odds with russia, looking to topple Assad. Have ME allies funding isis. worried about iran, hezbollah, nusra. .supposedly pissed at turkey but is a nato ally. praying the Isrealis stay out of it.
- saudis & other gulf countries supplying anti Assad forces and most seem to believe funding isis as a counter to iran
- lebanon has hezbollah and is a major conduit for supplies to anti assad forces from sunni gulf states while gulf states supply funding to anti shia/iran isis.
- germans showing up to do something, not sure what

I'm sure I forgot some one.

Then there's the why.

-The mods want assad, isis, iran, hezbollah, russia, turkey gone to run democratic country. Would probably lose the first election 14,000,000 to 8
- al nusra wants to get rid of assad, isis and eventually the mods. institute sharia.
- hezbollah/lebanon wants rid of assad, isis, nusra and eventually the mods, establish shia crescent as barrier to sunnis/saudi
- iraq wants isis dead is schizzo on saudi/sunni vs iran/shia wants turkey, russia out, assad dead
- iran wants shia control as buffer to sunni/saudi. wants to shut up kurds. and piss off/spit at US,
- turkey couldn't give rats ass about syria wants isis to keep kurds busy while erdogans family makes money off of oil shipped by isis. probably barking up wrong tree with russians.
-saudis/allies want assad dead, sunnis in control as buffer to iran/shia
- Russians couldn't give rats ass about syria want isis, mods, nusra dead. wants to block oil/nat gas pipeline thru area. having fun trying out new weapons, spitting at the US, looking macho back home. siding with shia vs sunni to counter opec rival saudi. Keeping western powers busy while reestablishing control over former soviet block. Waiting for photo op of bare chested Putin sitting on cruise missile.
- US & allies want assad, isis, al nusra dead. want iran, russia, hezbollah out. Want turkey to shut up, kurds to fight
isis, nusra but not mods and turkey and then shut up. want sunni control as buffer to iran/shia and to piss off russians and put oil/gas pipeline through area. Want iraq to stop being sunni vs shia schizzo. want mods to set up democratic govt patterned after New Jersey.
- isis wants to kill & rape everyone, destroy the world, die, get 72 virgins.

- Oh and all parties other than US and allies, kill the jews.

A point to make here is that the US is the backstop for Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Israel. As such the US has more influence over these States actions than perhaps you are willing to give credit to.

I'd agree with that particularly in the case of Israel. In the case of Turkey and the Saudis i'm less certain.

In the case of ISIS, perhaps being used as a proxy against Iran, I'd have to wonder if that aligns with US objectives. In addition, it seems to me the Saudis have had no problem turning a blind eye to non state funding of wahabis all over the globe. Again it may at times align with US objectives but not always. I also sometimes wonder how much that influence goes the other way, the US appears to turn a blind eye to wahabi sponsorship as well.

As far as Turkey, Erdogan seems more and more willing to go his own way. It seems to me Turkey is ever so slowly turning to the east. Particularly since I think any thought of joining the EU seems more remote by the day.

The Israelis rely on the US for their very survival. The Saudis as well, but in a sunni dominated area of the world perhaps not as much. The Turks on the other hand can probably sit on the fence and play both sides a little more comfortably.

As i mentioned I posted this ramble on another thread and some one rightly pointed that there is another level to the mess, the tribal ties. Add that to the mix and it would make one hell of who's who chart.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia have security agreements with the US. I find it hard to believe that Erdogan would would risk war with Russia without the security of NATO backing.