A question - Intelligent Design

no1tovote4 said:
That is where you are incorrect. There is as much empirical evidence for one as the other. The Evolution theory has huge holes in it, and needs something to get it past that little hump of not even one single species has been found with a complete record of evolution.

The possibility of completing an evolutionary record, a complete one, for a living species is a massive, possibly impossible (at this point) undertaking. However, the assertion that existance of "missing links" points to Intelligent Design is ludicrous. ID is a completely arbitrary conclusion to jump to re: missing links.

There is as much evidence for ID as there is for evolution. Come oooon man. You say there are holes in evolution as a theory. Intelligent Design IS a hole,

NO1TOVOTE4 said:
There is a missing piece in every case that makes guesses part of the "theory". The empirical evidence doesn't match up to the theory. At best it should be presented as a Hypothesis and not a theory. Those gaps suggest that ID may have played a part in that Evolution, and guessing that there may have been intervention is equally valid as guessing what pieces are missing in the evolutionary ladder.

Guessing that there was Intelligent Intervention in evolution is equally as valid as extrapolating from what we do know about the history of organisms on the earth to try to understand what links all organisms? Sooooo using existing evidence as "best guess" model is equally as valid as...making stuff up. Heh. Right.
 
CivilLiberty said:
When I first encountered real creationists in the 80s, I honestly thought is was a practical joke. I really could not believe that people thought this way. You might call this my "theory of ignorance" - we can prove that creationists are ignorant, but we can't "prove" the mechanism that causes them to be ignorant!

hahah - I crack myself up...

Andy

Well, Mr. Cracked, explain why Einstein himself went from being agnostic to a believer in God.
Are you accusing Einstein of also being an "ignorant" creationist?
 
nakedemperor said:
The possibility of completing an evolutionary record, a complete one, for a living species is a massive, possibly impossible (at this point) undertaking. However, the assertion that existance of "missing links" points to Intelligent Design is ludicrous. ID is a completely arbitrary conclusion to jump to re: missing links.

There is as much evidence for ID as there is for evolution. Come oooon man. You say there are holes in evolution as a theory. Intelligent Design IS a hole,
No, Intelligent Design is one theory for the filling of those holes. It has EXACTLY as much validity as your guess.


Guessing that there was Intelligent Intervention in evolution is equally as valid as extrapolating from what we do know about the history of organisms on the earth to try to understand what links all organisms? Sooooo using existing evidence as "best guess" model is equally as valid as...making stuff up. Heh. Right.

You can use the existing evidence as a best guess model either way. There have been numerous sites created by scientists posted in this thread already that will show that existing evidence can make one think either way. As I said before there is the same validity to both theories.

Ignoring the evidence that doesn't fit your theory isn't very scientific either. Now waiting for actual evidence to back up your theory is. Simply saying one person may be disingenuous because they don't espouse the current theory of the day doesn't mean that you are right any more than using the Bible to prove your theory does.

When guesses and theories are all you have to back up your argument and neither one can be proven, it therefore is obvious that it takes just as much Faith to believe in one over the other.
 
My general comments in ID, Creationism and Evolution.


1) I recognize that creationist/young earthers are separate from IDers. Creationist/young earthers (that is, though that believe the literal biblical concept that the earth was created at once, 6000 years ago, and that man was made from clay, etc) are ignorant to the point of deserving the same ridicule that can be placed on "flat earth" society members and those that believe the sun revolves around the earth, and that the earth is the center of the universe. These obsolete ideas based on superstition are laughable and ridiculous.

2) IDers (Intelligent Design Proponents) seem to have a broader willingness to accept certain facts, particularly those relating to the age of the earth and the universe. Although, very often I find IDers seem to be more interested in attempting to align creationism with evolution. ID then is often an attempt at a grand unifying theory of life.

3) IDers also seem to have subsets that include "space aliens". L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology is one religion that espouses this belief.

4) Some IDers (and some creationists) seem interested in "data fitting" selected facts to "fit" their specified conjecture. IDers have attempted to make a distinction known as "Micro" and "Macro" evolution in an attempt to reconcile creationism with the facts of evolution. (That is, as scientific evidence builds, they concede to the facts).

5) Evolutionists are scientists, who are interested in drawing conclusions from evidence and facts, as opposed to "data fitting" facts to fit conjecture.



It's important to point out that science of evolution is all about the study of the development of the natural world. ID is a conjecture of "what might have happened", and lacking support in any form of evidence.

ID, then, is not a science, it is a philosophy.


--
ID BY GOD:

ID by "god" asserts that there is an omnipotent and sentient "supreme being", that manipulate(s) nature to achieve certain ends.

In order for this theory to be true, it requires that there actually be a "god". There is no way to prove the existence of a God - unless it were to make itself known to us directly, nor is there any proof that there IS a god. Therefore, it is impossible to prove this form of ID.
--
ID BY SPACE ALIENS

ID by "Space Aliens" asserts that at least at some point, or many points, space aliens planted DNA seed, or manipulated developing DNA.

In order for this theory to be true, it requires that there actually be "space aliens". There is no way to prove the existence of a Space Aliens - unless they are to make themselves known to us directly, nor is there any proof that there ARE space aliens. Therefore, it is impossible to prove this form of ID.
--


Either of these ID conjectures is equally valid, and equally invalid. They are suppositions with no supporting evidence.



CHAOTIC DESIGN

This is not "intelligent" design in that it does not require a sentient being to manipulate evolution with forethought.

Chaotic design is that of random chance, with "failing" chances eliminated though natural selection, and "Successful" outcomes being reinforced by selection.

Chaotic design does not require the existence of a "higher power" or even "space aliens". All it needs is a chaotic environment (which we have) and lots of time (the last 3.5 billion years is plenty).


Evidence of chaotic systems abound - please show me evidence of god or space aliens.




Best Regards,


Andy
 
ScreamingEagle said:
Well, Mr. Cracked, explain why Einstein himself went from being agnostic to a believer in God.
Are you accusing Einstein of also being an "ignorant" creationist?


Einstein was a high functioning autistic (Asperger syndrome). What is sometimes referred to as a "savant" (though "idiot savant" is too extreme here).

His enormous aptitude for mathematics and physics is unquestionable. However, he proved himself a literal dunce in other areas of life.

Also, did he have a"belief in god" or was he a creationist that actually disbelieved in evolution?

Regards,


Andy


God is a figment of man's ego.
 
manu1959 said:
hey andy
what if you are wrong and there is a god?
that will be a bad day for ya huh?


I could never believe in a god that gave me a free thinking mind - and then condemned me for using it.

Regards


Andy
 
CivilLiberty said:
I could never believe in a god that gave me a free thinking mind - and then condemned me for using it.

Regards


Andy

He gives you free WILL. It is up to you if you will follow his dictates in life or not.
 
CivilLiberty said:
I could never believe in a god that gave me a free thinking mind - and then condemned me for using it.

Regards


Andy

intersting point.........but that is not what i asked you

funny thing is....you are given free will and a set of moral and ethical guidlines to follow....if you blow it he will forgive you if you ask....

so, what if there is a god?
 
CivilLiberty said:
He that does not exist can dictate nothing.


Regards,


Andy

And it is a good thing for you (well, in this world at least) that He gave you the free-will to think this way.
 
no1tovote4-- I can't make you see that one "guess" has infinitely more empyirical data supporting it than the other. Enough evidence to be able to call it something more than a guess. However, as you don't seem interested in finding out for yourself how solid the "theory" of evolution is, we'll call it an educated guess. Making the leap of faith and connecting the numberless dots with the concept of "Intelligent Design" (God done it) you abandon empirical evidence, and your guess does not become an educated one, it becomes a truly faith-based one.

I have faith that I will wake up tomorrow and the world will be more or less the same. Day will be light, up will be up, etc. etc. However, it is FAITH. I cannot prove to you that tomorrow will exist as today did. Would you put this on par with the belief in a god-thing, in terms of long leaps of faith? I think not.
 
question:

just because there are books and theories on eveolution does not make it so as they still have not prooved the moment of the jump from slime to inteligent man.....but you all have faith that it will be found....the WMD of evolution if you will
 
manu1959 said:
intersting point.........but that is not what i asked you

funny thing is....you are given free will and a set of moral and ethical guidlines to follow....if you blow it he will forgive you if you ask....

so, what if there is a god?


Well golly batman, if there is a god and he will forgive me if I ask, then no problem! How convenient.


BUT, assuming I'm right, and there is no god, then you are living your life based on a lie, and you'll never get your life back.

I'd rather live my life based on truth.


Regards,


Andy
 
CivilLiberty said:
Well golly batman, if there is a god and he will forgive me if I ask, then no problem! How convenient.

For somebody that likes to think they are well versed in many subjects, you sure are lacking.

It doesn't quite work the way you obviously HOPE it does.

CivilLiberty said:
BUT, assuming I'm right, and there is no god, then you are living your life based on a lie, and you'll never get your life back.

Never get our lives back? Are we not living our lives now? And if you are right, once we are dead, we will never know if it is a lie or not. No harm no foul right? (for the record, THERE IS A GOD!)

CivilLiberty said:
I'd rather live my life based on truth.

Another idiotic statement. How do you know your life now is based on truth? You don't. You just assume, in your arrogance, that it is.
 
CivilLiberty said:
Well golly batman, if there is a god and he will forgive me if I ask, then no problem! How convenient.


BUT, assuming I'm right, and there is no god, then you are living your life based on a lie, and you'll never get your life back.

I'd rather live my life based on truth.


Regards,


Andy

i am often amazed at the style of argument people use in this type of discussion, i asked you a simple question... what if there is a god?...and you end up telling me (mind you i have never said what i belive in) that i am wasting my life, living a lie and that my life is not based on truth.....

is this style of argument intended to win me over to your school of thought or is there some other secrete plan?
 
manu1959 said:
i am often amazed at the style of argument people use in this type of discussion, i asked you a simple question... what if there is a god?...and you end up telling me


What I ended up telling you were responses to your further queries.


Back to your original query:

WHAT IF THERE IS A GOD?


So what? What's he going to do? Condemn me for searching for the truth and finding that he does not exist? If he were to condemn me for this then he can pretty much fuck off.

If he did exist, then at such a point as he were to make himself known to me directly (as you Christians say, at the pearly gates), then I will happily admit my misguided ways and ask for forgiveness. As you Christians are fond of saying, all you have to do is ask for forgiveness. So I'll ask right then and there.

Trust me, there's nothing I'd like more than to be proven wrong. I really wish there were an eternal existence - a "heaven" if you will. But wishing does not make it true, any more than santa clause.

I mean, it must be nice to believe in fairy tails. I really really wish I could.

But I am not a Christian. I'm a buddhist/Unitarian (if you want a label for me), and we search for the truth. We live each day as if each day were a precious holiday. We rejoice in life, love and happiness.

So again, back to the original query:

WHAT IF THERE IS A GOD


My answer: it does not matter.


Best Regards,


Andy
 

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