A question for the pro-abortion aka pro-choice crowd

[catzmeow]

It's terminating a life. But spin it whichever way you want to clear your conscience.

Is that life sentient?

Is a woman who spontaneously aborts (miscarries) at 10 weeks committing a grave sin?

 

[BDBoop]

I will, I believe you say exactly what you feel then when you're called out on it you say I was only being silly.

As I understand you to know from personal experience; life is far too short for the games you are attempting to play.

I don't play games.

Even worse - you don't know when you do.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

It's terminating a life. But spin it whichever way you want to clear your conscience.

Is that life sentient?

Is a woman who spontaneously aborts (miscarries) at 10 weeks committing a grave sin?

Miscarriages are horrible but perfectly natural.

There are serious problems with your sentient argument. First, it confuses harm with hurt and the experience of harm with the reality of harm. One can be harmed without experiencing the hurt that sometimes follows from that harm, and which we often mistake for the harm itself.

For example, a temporarily comatose person who is suffocated to death might experience no hurt, but he is nevertheless harmed. Hence, one does not have to experience harm, which is sometimes manifested in hurt, in order to be truly harmed.

Second, if sentience is the criterion of full humanness, then the reversibly comatose, the momentarily unconscious, and the sleeping would all have to be declared nonpersons. Like the presentient unborn, these individuals are all at the moment nonsentient though they have the natural inherent capacity to be sentient.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

As I understand you to know from personal experience; life is far too short for the games you are attempting to play.

I don't play games.

Even worse - you don't know when you do.

Typical liberal, she thinks she knows more about me than I do.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Why do women abort their babies?

I understand there may be an ample number of reasons, but what, in your opinion would be the concensus?

I think it's purely for selfish reasons for the most part.

Your thoughts.

I was a volunteer at The StoreFront (teen crisis shelter) in San Diego. The majority of girls who were pregnant there, had been raped by a family member, former "friend" or strangers. All of them were between 12 and 17 years old.

I hold absolutely no judgment of them, given those circumstances.

As far as "convenience" abortions? While I dont' condone them, again I'm just not the "cast the first stone" type. It's hard for me to put myself in the shoes of a woman who had BC fail, a boyfriend take off or whatever would lead to such a decision. I'm sure it's never easy.

 

[BDBoop]

I don't play games.

Even worse - you don't know when you do.

Typical liberal, she thinks she knows more about me than I do.

Oh? But I do know what I see here.

 

[Xchel]

in the first trimester isn't killing a child. It's killing a clump of cells.

It stops being a clump of cells actually in the first 2 weeks...so no in the first trimester it isn't a clump of cells...that is before implantation that it divides into a variety of cells..after implantation it starts to take shape and by the 6th week it is recognizable as a baby, having arms, legs, a head, etc..that is hardly a clump of cells.

 

[Moonglow]

So instead of letting these children have a chance at life even if they must languish for a few years, you would rather see them dead.

First off, an abortion in the first trimester isn't killing a child. It's killing a clump of cells. Nature already performs this action on 30% of all pregnancies....it's called a miscarriage. If it's good enough for mother nature, then there is clearly nothing immoral about it.

Second, a high percentage of the children who wind up in foster care for abuse/neglect also wind up in our prison system for criminal behavior.

If you'd worked with my clients, you might see that an abortion in the first trimester would have been the best thing, all around, for that individual. I have 8 clients who are in prison for homicide. In 2 cases, they committed multiple homicides.

Had they been aborted, these kids would never have taken someone else's life.

I find it interesting how concerned you people always are about someone else's theoretical child, and how utterly unconcerned you are about existing children who are being abused, neglected, ignored, starved, maltreated, beaten and the like.

It's terminating a life. But spin it whichever way you want to clear your conscience.

I just killed my sperm!

 

[LaterTrader]

Why do women abort their babies?

I understand there may be an ample number of reasons,.........

Yes, there are an AMPLE number of reasons.....none of which is any of your business.

I would ask the counter question to your question.........


why do you insist upon denying American citizens their rights to privacy, their rights to their own religious beliefs, and denying them their own private health and welfare concerns, as well as their own ability to make informed decisions that will help them make the best choices for their own lives? Are you and your fellow believers just despots who want to control other people?

If you want to be a busy-body, sticking your nose into every other woman's vagina and womb, and insisting upon total ownership of that womb, according to your own, personal religious beliefs, then find a country to live in where you can be king or queen.
We don't do that here in the USA. Nor should any citizen ever inflict their emotionally-charged, personal beliefs upon another human being here!

 

[Valerie]

I believe the Bible is the Word of God, however the passage you cited did not advocate abortion simply because it never stated the woman was pregnant or if she was then what was to be done about the baby.

"If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him... then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and the priest shall say unto the woman,

'The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell... and this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot': And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot... and this woman shall bear her iniquity."

Numbers 5:11-31

“The Adultery Test”

I didn't site anything, Valerie did. Confused much?

Yes you liberal pukes do confuse me.

You're confused, alright... A true conservative would recognize that such a private decision is not the business of government!


In the United States, 9 out of 10 abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks (first trimester) of pregnancy. Most of these are done within the first 9 weeks of pregnancy.

Very few abortions are done after 16 weeks of pregnancy. But some women have to delay abortions because they have trouble with paying for, finding, or traveling to an abortion specialist.






And despite your misunderstanding of the Biblical citation, The Lord instructed Moses on the Law regarding infidelity whereby the Priest was assigned to Judge her circumstances and give the "bitter water" accordingly. What The Lord described was clearly an aborted pregnancy as the proper consequence for her infidelity...



If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry...


Mostly, I cite this Old Testament verse to demonstrate the hypocrisy of phony "conservatives" who use the Bible to rationalize their fear and loathing...

 

[Xchel]

Why do women abort their babies?

I understand there may be an ample number of reasons,.........

Yes, there are an AMPLE number of reasons.....none of which is any of your business.

I would ask the counter question to your question.........


why do you insist upon denying American citizens their rights to privacy, their rights to their own religious beliefs, and denying them their own private health and welfare concerns, as well as their own ability to make informed decisions that will help them make the best choices for their own lives? Are you and your fellow believers just despots who want to control other people?

If you want to be a busy-body, sticking your nose into every other woman's vagina and womb, and insisting upon total ownership of that womb, according to your own, personal religiour beliefs, then find a country to live in where you can be king or queen.
We don't do that here in the USA. Nor should any citizen ever inflict their emotionally-charged, personal beliefs upon another human being here!

We get to tell them at the point that the child inside them becomes compatible with life. I have serious issues with any abortion beyond first trimester and for good reason...babies are viable after 20 weeks...before then by 16 weeks they are only growing and nothing more...your choice has limits...the limit at which it impedes on the choice of another human being...so if you want choice FINE no problem with that...have 20 abortions if you think that is cool..but make sure you make that choice within 10 weeks because that is more than enough time, especially with the abortion pill.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Why do women abort their babies?

I understand there may be an ample number of reasons,.........

Yes, there are an AMPLE number of reasons.....none of which is any of your business.

I would ask the counter question to your question.........


why do you insist upon denying American citizens their rights to privacy, their rights to their own religious beliefs, and denying them their own private health and welfare concerns, as well as their own ability to make informed decisions that will help them make the best choices for their own lives? Are you and your fellow believers just despots who want to control other people?

If you want to be a busy-body, sticking your nose into every other woman's vagina and womb, and insisting upon total ownership of that womb, according to your own, personal religious beliefs, then find a country to live in where you can be king or queen.
We don't do that here in the USA. Nor should any citizen ever inflict their emotionally-charged, personal beliefs upon another human being here!

I haven't denied anyone of anything. But it's obvious you do not value human life.

 

[koshergrl]

Privacy is not a right that supercedes the right of a child to live.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Why do women abort their babies?

I understand there may be an ample number of reasons, but what, in your opinion would be the concensus?

I think it's purely for selfish reasons for the most part.

Your thoughts.

I was a volunteer at The StoreFront (teen crisis shelter) in San Diego. The majority of girls who were pregnant there, had been raped by a family member, former "friend" or strangers. All of them were between 12 and 17 years old.

I hold absolutely no judgment of them, given those circumstances.

As far as "convenience" abortions? While I dont' condone them, again I'm just not the "cast the first stone" type. It's hard for me to put myself in the shoes of a woman who had BC fail, a boyfriend take off or whatever would lead to such a decision. I'm sure it's never easy.

Abortion is not the only option. But it seems to be the most convenient.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I didn't site anything, Valerie did. Confused much?

Yes you liberal pukes do confuse me.

You're confused, alright... A true conservative would recognize that such a private decision is not the business of government!


In the United States, 9 out of 10 abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks (first trimester) of pregnancy. Most of these are done within the first 9 weeks of pregnancy.

Very few abortions are done after 16 weeks of pregnancy. But some women have to delay abortions because they have trouble with paying for, finding, or traveling to an abortion specialist.






And despite your misunderstanding of the Biblical citation, The Lord instructed Moses on the Law regarding infidelity whereby the Priest was assigned to Judge her circumstances and give the "bitter water" accordingly. What The Lord described was clearly an aborted pregnancy as the proper consequence for her infidelity...



If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry...


Mostly, I cite this Old Testament verse to demonstrate the hypocrisy of phony "conservatives" who use the Bible to rationalize their fear and loathing...

Who said anything about the government?

Nice straw man you got there.

Oh and there was no mention of pregnancy in that passage.

 

[LaterTrader]

Why do women abort their babies?

I understand there may be an ample number of reasons,.........

Yes, there are an AMPLE number of reasons.....none of which is any of your business.

I would ask the counter question to your question.........


why do you insist upon denying American citizens their rights to privacy, their rights to their own religious beliefs, and denying them their own private health and welfare concerns, as well as their own ability to make informed decisions that will help them make the best choices for their own lives? Are you and your fellow believers just despots who want to control other people?

If you want to be a busy-body, sticking your nose into every other woman's vagina and womb, and insisting upon total ownership of that womb, according to your own, personal religiour beliefs, then find a country to live in where you can be king or queen.
We don't do that here in the USA. Nor should any citizen ever inflict their emotionally-charged, personal beliefs upon another human being here!

We get to tell them at the point that the child inside them becomes compatible with life. I have serious issues with any abortion beyond first trimester and for good reason...babies are viable after 20 weeks...before then by 16 weeks they are only growing and nothing more...your choice has limits...the limit at which it impedes on the choice of another human being...so if you want choice FINE no problem with that...have 20 abortions if you think that is cool..but make sure you make that choice within 10 weeks because that is more than enough time, especially with the abortion pill.

You don't get to TELL them anything! You get to lecture. The life of the woman is ALWAYS paramount. Simply because medical science has advanced to allow for a child to be delivered from a womb earlier than 28 weeks and survive does not give anyone any right to pry into the life of that woman.

You don't get to tell any man on the street who he can and cannot sleep with tonight. Same goes for the process of pregnancy. And, as a man, I'm not planning on any abortions in my lifetime. So you have all you want, and think of me when you have them. As the old saying goes, if you're against abortion, just don't have one. That's all the power you get in your lifetime, not the power to control another human being's body.

Now, being rational for a moment, (instead of hysterical at your desires to control other women's bodies), VERY TRUE, at a certain moment in time, a child becomes viable outside the womb, be that 22 weeks, or 33 weeks, all dependent upon the child, the mother's nutrition, the mother's overall health, etc. Fetuses in poor villages in Africa and some parts of China are routinely spontaneously aborted by the mother's body at 30 weeks, and the child stands no chance of survival ex utero. In a relatively advanced medical society like western Europe and North America, we know that 99% of fetuses at 28 weeks CAN AND DO survive ex-utero, with proper medical intervention, (incubators, etc etc. at a cost of $thousands a day for several weeks). So, if you wish, rational legislators will impose reasonable decision times, 15 weeks, 20 weeks, 24 weeks. No fetus is EVER "viable" at 15 weeks, given current technology. 15 weeks, about 3.5 months, a reasonable time for decision-making for adults, not maybe as reasonable for teen mothers who hide the pregnancy from their family and friends. So let's all agree, some reasonable time, 20 weeks, 24 weeks, whatever we agree upon. That is the time a mother has to make the decision and the commitment, (a life-long commitment)!

But for the anti-abortion advocates, those who INSIST upon the child being born, no matter WHO impregnated the mother, relative, father, uncle, rapist, one-night-stand...for those of you who insist upon maintaining control of that woman's womb, know this, you should not, and you do not!

 

[IndependntLogic]

Why do women abort their babies?

I understand there may be an ample number of reasons, but what, in your opinion would be the concensus?

I think it's purely for selfish reasons for the most part.

Your thoughts.

I was a volunteer at The StoreFront (teen crisis shelter) in San Diego. The majority of girls who were pregnant there, had been raped by a family member, former "friend" or strangers. All of them were between 12 and 17 years old.

I hold absolutely no judgment of them, given those circumstances.

As far as "convenience" abortions? While I dont' condone them, again I'm just not the "cast the first stone" type. It's hard for me to put myself in the shoes of a woman who had BC fail, a boyfriend take off or whatever would lead to such a decision. I'm sure it's never easy.

Abortion is not the only option. But it seems to be the most convenient.

"Convenient"? For a 12 year old girl who has been gang-raped by her brother and a few of his friends? You're going to sentence her to carrying a daily reminder of that trauma, every day for almost 10% of her current life? How compassionate.
And you're going to personally take care of the child after it's born? Didn't think so. People who will shoulder no responsibility find it easy to talk about how others should.

 

[koshergrl]

Talk about hysterical. It's so hysterical there's no point to even responding to it.

Try to come up with some sort of real argument.

 

[koshergrl]

I see you've added, in mahogany bold, a description of all the logical fallacies you've included in your posts. Thank you.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Talk about hysterical. It's so hysterical there's no point to even responding to it.

Try to come up with some sort of real argument.

If you're referring to me, read my first post. I sued to volunteer at a teen crisis center. 1 out of 4 girls in this country will be raped by the age of 17. More in the inner cities.
What I described was very real to the girls I counseled. Shame that it is real and that it happens every day in this country, several times a day.

But I'm sure that sitting in the safety of your nice home, it seems "hysterical" to you. It would be too horrible to be real.

You may now continue judging those you don't know for having gone through experiences you could never imagine....