A question for Muslims

[PoliticalChic]

Do you think illiteracy might possibly be related to poverty?

Or do you think illiteracy in Appalachia during the last century was due to Christianity?

What's your excuse for your own ignorance?

And in what section of the bible did you find instructions on how to beat wives as in Sura 4:34, or which Christian sect restricts education to males, or practices female genital mutilation?

Now, what was that about ignorance?

Now what was that about poverty? You avoided my question.[/QUOTE]

Your question as to poverty is far too limiting, and the answer is cyclical. The society caused the povery as it causes the illiteracy.

We both know that I’ve seen evidence of your desire to reach out, to give a helping hand to everyone, but you are making a mistake here.
This is not a case of me picking on Islam, as in some sort of prejudice, or bigotry, but rather an attempt to set the record straight.

All of my point are documented and thought out. I have not only discussed the points where Islam is at odds with both the West, but also at odds with human nature.

In other posts I have stated a ways for Islam to become more at one with the world today. In the words of the great Kemal Ataturk, “We must liberate our concepts of justice, our laws and our legal institutions from the bonds which, even though they are incompatible with the needs of our century, still hold a tight grip on us.”

Ataturk was separating political Islam from the Koran. It is his wisdom which will free the Moslem world, and especially Moslem women.

If your disagreements with me are based on a full understanding of the subject at hand, and you support Islam as it is today, then I have misjudged you.

If you disagree because you are not aware of the veracity of my points, then it behooves you to engage in further study.

Trying to be “even handed” is not always judicious.

 

[Anguille]

Your question as to poverty is far too limiting, and the answer is cyclical. The society caused the povery as it causes the illiteracy.

We both know that I’ve seen evidence of your desire to reach out, to give a helping hand to everyone, but you are making a mistake here.
This is not a case of me picking on Islam, as in some sort of prejudice, or bigotry, but rather an attempt to set the record straight.

All of my point are documented and thought out. I have not only discussed the points where Islam is at odds with both the West, but also at odds with human nature.

In other posts I have stated a ways for Islam to become more at one with the world today. In the words of the great Kemal Ataturk, “We must liberate our concepts of justice, our laws and our legal institutions from the bonds which, even though they are incompatible with the needs of our century, still hold a tight grip on us.”

Ataturk was separating political Islam from the Koran. It is his wisdom which will free the Moslem world, and especially Moslem women.

If your disagreements with me are based on a full understanding of the subject at hand, and you support Islam as it is today, then I have misjudged you.

If you disagree because you are not aware of the veracity of my points, then it behooves you to engage in further study.

Trying to be “even handed” is not always judicious.

I support no religion. I am an atheist. But I also do not support bigotry and hate speech which is what many posts at USMB concerning Muslims are filled with. I have Muslim friends, some I grew up with, and know a bit about the religion and how diverse the many sects are. It's stupid and wrong to try to equate all of Islam with the wrongdoings of a few terrorists and fundamentalists. You would never blame Unitarians for what David Koresh did, would you?

The whole Muslim bashing scene is frighteningly reminiscent of the attitudes held not so long ago towards Jews. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you and also fear what might come in the future if such things are allowed to continue un questioned and unchallenged.


Not sure what you mean by "Trying to be “even handed” is not always judicious".

 

[PoliticalChic]

Your question as to poverty is far too limiting, and the answer is cyclical. The society caused the povery as it causes the illiteracy.

We both know that I’ve seen evidence of your desire to reach out, to give a helping hand to everyone, but you are making a mistake here.
This is not a case of me picking on Islam, as in some sort of prejudice, or bigotry, but rather an attempt to set the record straight.

All of my point are documented and thought out. I have not only discussed the points where Islam is at odds with both the West, but also at odds with human nature.

In other posts I have stated a ways for Islam to become more at one with the world today. In the words of the great Kemal Ataturk, “We must liberate our concepts of justice, our laws and our legal institutions from the bonds which, even though they are incompatible with the needs of our century, still hold a tight grip on us.”

Ataturk was separating political Islam from the Koran. It is his wisdom which will free the Moslem world, and especially Moslem women.

If your disagreements with me are based on a full understanding of the subject at hand, and you support Islam as it is today, then I have misjudged you.

If you disagree because you are not aware of the veracity of my points, then it behooves you to engage in further study.

Trying to be “even handed” is not always judicious.

I support no religion. I am an atheist. But I also do not support bigotry and hate speech which is what many posts at USMB concerning Muslims are filled with. I have Muslim friends, some I grew up with, and know a bit about the religion and how diverse the many sects are. It's stupid and wrong to try to equate all of Islam with the wrongdoings of a few terrorists and fundamentalists. You would never blame Unitarians for what David Koresh did, would you?

The whole Muslim bashing scene is frighteningly reminiscent of the attitudes held not so long ago towards Jews. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you and also fear what might come in the future if such things are allowed to continue un questioned and unchallenged.


Not sure what you mean by "Trying to be “even handed” is not always judicious".

My posts are by no means hate speech, what ever that is supposed to mean. My posts are very specific, and it seems that you would rather take them as a whole, and ignore every point, every noted evil recommended in the Koran.

The saviors of the Moslems are folks like Kemal Atatur, Irshad Manji, and the others who are willing to treat the more atavistic harsh Suras the way Christians treat those verses that are brutal and of another time.

You are dead wrong if you think you are supporting Islam by thinking it is just fine as it is.

By even handed, I mean it seems that you are offended by any negative statements, no matter whether if they are true or not.

I suspect that you are not familiar with the specifics of the Koran.

This is as simple as I can make it.

 

[Anguille]

My posts are by no means hate speech, what ever that is supposed to mean. My posts are very specific, and it seems that you would rather take them as a whole, and ignore every point, every noted evil recommended in the Koran.

I've addressed several of your points. Don't pretend otherwise. Spreading lies about Muslims, such as saying female circumcision/mutilation is a Muslim religious practice, is inciting hate. Saying the Koran recommends evil is hate speech. You know very well it's just as open to a wide spectrum of interpretation as is the Torah and the Bible.

The saviors of the Moslems are folks like Kemal Atatur, Irshad Manji, and the others who are willing to treat the more atavistic harsh Suras the way Christians treat those verses that are brutal and of another time.

I'm very glad to see reform among the fundamentalist Muslims just as I am very glad to see reform amongst the fundamentalist Christians and Jews. The fundamentalists of all three religions have more in common with each other than they have with the mainstream religion from which they grew. You'd do better for society to decry the influence of fundamentalism that to single out Muslims as a whole.

You are dead wrong if you think you are supporting Islam by thinking it is just fine as it is.

As I said above, I support no religion. Only religious people and their right to practice their religion in any way that does no harm to others which is exactly how the majority of Muslims, like the majority of Christians and Jews and other religious folk, practice theirs.

By even handed, I mean it seems that you are offended by any negative statements, no matter whether if they are true or not.

even-handed synonym | Thesaurus.com
Main Entry: even-handed Part of Speech: adjective Definition: impartial and fair Synonyms: aboveboard, balanced, disinterested, equitable, fair, fair-and-square, honest, honorable, impartial, just, justifiable, neutral, nonpartisan, objective, on the level*, on the level, reasonable, right, square, straight, unbiased, unprejudiced, upright, virtuous, on the up-and-up * = informal/non-formal usage

Main Entry: disinterested Part of Speech: adjective Definition: detached, uninvolved Synonyms: aloof, candid, casual, dispassionate, equitable, even-handed, impartial, impersonal, indifferent, lackadaisical, negative, neutral, nonpartisan, outside, perfunctory, remote, unbiased, unconcerned, unprejudiced, unselfish, withdrawn, incurious, just watching the clock, not giving a damn, uncurious Notes: if you are disinterested, you have no stake in the outcome of an event and you are impartial - but if you are uninterested, you simply don't care; disinterested is 'impartial, neutral' and uninterested is 'bored, lacking interest'
uninterested means 'having no interest in, being indifferent to'; disinterested means 'having no personal interest or stake in; being unbiased toward' Antonyms: biased, concerned, interested, involved, passionate, prejudiced

 

[PoliticalChic]

quote] I've addressed several of your points. Don't pretend otherwise. Spreading lies about Muslims, such as saying female circumcision/mutilation is a Muslim religious practice, is inciting hate. Saying the Koran recommends evil is hate speech. You know very well it's just as open to a wide spectrum of interpretation as is the Torah and the Bible.

Lest one read my posts through a distorted prism, and assume some sort of prejudice or bigotry, I suggest that knowledge of the following is a prerequisite to judging my perspective:
Are you familiar with all of the following?
1. The massacre of the Banu Qurayzah tribe

2. Intolerance as a hallmark of Islam

a. The meaning of Dhimmi

b. The Jizya

3. The Treaty of Hudaybiyya

4. Taqiyya

5. Although forbidden to the faithful, except in the case of rape of infidel women, the Koran promises the following to warriors who have died in battle for Islam: sex outside of marriage, alcoholic beverages, homosexuality.

6.Islam has given rise to a culture that has institutionalized, and continues in the 21st century, human sacrifice, murder, misogyny, stamping out of indivuality, abolition of human happiness and sexualiy and promises the most drastic punishments for infractions of these, including, heaven forfend, leaving Islam for another religion.

If you have not yet made yourself familiar with the above, then forming an opinion about Islam is akin to planning to become a fireman without being aware of the nature of fire.

 

[Anguille]

Could you please fix the quotes in your post?

 

[Anguille]

Lest one read my posts through a distorted prism, and assume some sort of prejudice or bigotry, I suggest that knowledge of the following is a prerequisite to judging my perspective:
Are you familiar with all of the following?
1. The massacre of the Banu Qurayzah tribe

2. Intolerance as a hallmark of Islam

a. The meaning of Dhimmi

b. The Jizya

3. The Treaty of Hudaybiyya

4. Taqiyya

5. Although forbidden to the faithful, except in the case of rape of infidel women, the Koran promises the following to warriors who have died in battle for Islam: sex outside of marriage, alcoholic beverages, homosexuality.

6.Islam has given rise to a culture that has institutionalized, and continues in the 21st century, human sacrifice, murder, misogyny, stamping out of indivuality, abolition of human happiness and sexualiy and promises the most drastic punishments for infractions of these, including, heaven forfend, leaving Islam for another religion.

If you have not yet made yourself familiar with the above, then forming an opinion about Islam is akin to planning to become a fireman without being aware of the nature of fire.

I was just reading some posts of yours in another thread from a few months ago. You were conversing with Kalam and actually coming around to sounding open minded. You sounded sincere in that thread about wanting to know more about Islam and not being led by the nose by a bunch of bigots and accomplished hate mongers. I think you are generally sincere about wanting to understand things and get the whole picture. You are obviously intelligent and which is why I debate with you instead of tuning out like I often do with the loonies that often haunt this board. But now it seems like you have regressed since that time when you and Kalam were conversing.
I have no idea what you are refering to in half of that list you present , (sounds like a sequel to the Lord of the rings or something) and the other stuff .. well, how is being familiar with "2.Intolerance as a hallmark of Islam", "6.Islam has given rise to a culture that has institutionalized, and continues in the 21st century, human sacrifice, murder, misogyny," and etc useful as a prerequisite to judging your perspective other than to lead me to conclude you are a raving lunatic?

I actually am familiar with statements like yours above and they have helped me become aware of and form an opinion about Muslim bashers and psycho bigots and the nature of the scary fires they fuel in order to incite oppression of and sometimes even violence towards Muslims.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Could you please fix the quotes in your post?

There are no quotes in my post.

I have listed a number of points that you are either familiar with, or not.

If not, you should make yourself familiar with same, so as to have an informed opinion of the nature of Islam.

 

[Anguille]

Could you please fix the quotes in your post?

There are no quotes in my post.

I have listed a number of points that you are either familiar with, or not.

If not, you should make yourself familiar with same, so as to have an informed opinion of the nature of Islam.

You quote me saying things you said, not what I said. You need to delete some of the script to make it right.

 

[Ravi]

the Koran promises the following to warriors who have died in battle for Islam: sex outside of marriage, alcoholic beverages, homosexuality.

Link?

 

[Sunni Man]

Appropriate use of phrase, you should be afraid. Very afraid. Your ignorance is showing.

"Interestingly, the report found that the total number of books translated into Arabic yearly is no more than 330, or one-fifth of those translated in a small country like Greece.

Indeed, the total number of books translated into Arabic during the 1,000 years since the age of Caliph Al-Ma’moun [a ninth-century Arab ruler who was a patron of cultural interaction between Arab, Persian, and Greek scholars—WPR] to this day is less than those translated in Spain in one year."
Arab Human Development Report - Worldpress.org

"Back in 2003 we all gasped in shame when a UN report pointed out that more books are translated into Spanish a year than have been translated into Arabic in a millennium. We gasped but we were not surprised, not really. "
Translating More Books Into Arabic

Is it just me, or do your posts reek of "Hey, I know something too!"

I'm eagerly waiting to see how this is attributable to Islam.

The backwardness of the (Islamic) society makes them fodder for all the totalisms, such as Nazism, Communism, and Islamism.

So the backwardness of Christian Germany and Italy made them folder for their societies to embrace Nazism?

Or the backwardness of Christian Russia led them to communism?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Lest one read my posts through a distorted prism, and assume some sort of prejudice or bigotry, I suggest that knowledge of the following is a prerequisite to judging my perspective:
Are you familiar with all of the following?
1. The massacre of the Banu Qurayzah tribe

2. Intolerance as a hallmark of Islam

a. The meaning of Dhimmi

b. The Jizya

3. The Treaty of Hudaybiyya

4. Taqiyya

5. Although forbidden to the faithful, except in the case of rape of infidel women, the Koran promises the following to warriors who have died in battle for Islam: sex outside of marriage, alcoholic beverages, homosexuality.

6.Islam has given rise to a culture that has institutionalized, and continues in the 21st century, human sacrifice, murder, misogyny, stamping out of indivuality, abolition of human happiness and sexualiy and promises the most drastic punishments for infractions of these, including, heaven forfend, leaving Islam for another religion.

If you have not yet made yourself familiar with the above, then forming an opinion about Islam is akin to planning to become a fireman without being aware of the nature of fire.

I was just reading some posts of yours in another thread from a few months ago. You were conversing with Kalam and actually coming around to sounding open minded. You sounded sincere in that thread about wanting to know more about Islam and not being led by the nose by a bunch of accomplished bigots and hate mongers. I think you are generally sincere about wanting to understand things and get the whole picture. You are obviously intelligent and which is why I debate with you instead of tuning out like I often do with the loonies that often haunt this board. But it seems like you have regressed since that time when you and Kalam were conversing.
I have no idea what you are refering to in half of that list you present , (sounds like a sequel to the Lord of the rings or something) and the other stuff .. well, how is being familiar with "2.Intolerance as a hallmark of Islam", "6.Islam has given rise to a culture that has institutionalized, and continues in the 21st century, human sacrifice, murder, misogyny," and etc useful as a prerequisite to judging your perspective other than to lead me to conclude you are a raving lunatic?

I actually am familiar with statements like yours above and they have helped me form an opinion about and become aware of Muslim bashers and psycho bigots and the nature of the scary fires they fuel in order to incite oppression of and sometimes even violence towards Muslims.

Thank you for admitting that you are not familiar with a number of the phrases. I would be more than happy to explain any that you would like.

Either I am a "raving lunatic," or you are a fool with strong opinions based on zero knowledge.

I can document, identify and explain any of the items, including the #2 and #6 you have isolated.

I simply ask you to have an open mind, as in 'based on the veracity of her post, she may have a point. I'll have to rethink this." Why don't you try that?

For example, intolerance. Historically, Muhammad is known to have stated, on his deathbed, spoke of the cleansing of the Arabian peninsula of all non-Moslems.
Conversation with Lawrence Wright, page 4 of 6

Non-believers are forbidden from entering the Mecca, or even surrounding areas, except on business for a limit of three days.

and "Muslims must present non-Muslims with the three choices of Sura 9:29 of the (Koran): conversion, submission with second-class status under Islamic rule, or death."

"It is clear quite clear that under Islamic Law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical Muslim or modern scholars... Sura II.217 reads: “… But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever , his works shall come to nothing in this world and the next, and they are the companions of the fire for ever.” Al-Thalabi and al -Khazan concur. Al-Razi in his commentary on II:217 says the apostate should be killed."
Dhimmi Watch: Islam, Apostasy, and Human Rights

Even today:
"Their views are grounded in Shari'a law. All major schools of Islamic jurisprudence stipulate that a sane adult male must be put to death for abandoning Islam, though varying interpretations persist on whether females should be killed or merely imprisoned. Many Islamic states outlaw apostasy and seven list it as a capital offense."
Fear Stalks Muslim Apostates in the West

My conversation with Kalam, as I recall, was whether or not he believed the following:
Is the individual radical? A simple test, according to Tawfik Hamid, in his book, “Inside Jihad,” is to ask if the subject of questioning supports the following:
A) Killing of Apostates, those who decide to leave the religion
B) Beating of women, and stoning them to death for infractions
C) Calling Jews Pigs and Monkeys
D) Declaring war on non-Muslims either to convert them, or to have them pay a second-class citizen tax
E) Enslave and rape female war prisoners, as in Darfur
F) Fight and kill Jews as preparation for the end days
G) Kill gays

Can you imagine the necessity for composing such a test? It is generally thought that about 10% of Moslems are radical, but this does not include those who support radical Islam with 'charity,' or other support.
For example, from the Daily Mail, UK:
British Muslim woman convicted of penning poems about beheadings
By ARTHUR MARTIN - More by this author » Last updated at 08:30am on 9th November 2007
Comments (32)
An airport worker who wrote poems about beheadings is the first woman to be found guilty under new terror laws.
Samina Malik, who liked to call herself a "lyrical terrorist", called for attacks on the West and described "poisoned bullets" capable of killing an entire street in her poetry.
The 23-year-old Muslim wrote of her desire to become a martyr and listed her favourite videos as the "beheading ones".
How to Behead


Hold him
Tie the arms behind his back
And bandage his legs together
Just by the ankles
Blindfold the punk
So that he won’t hesitate as much
For on seeing the sharp pointy knife
He’ll begin to shake
And continuously scream like an eedyat
And jiggle like a jelly
Trust me–this will sure get you angry
It’s better to have at least two or three brothers by your side
Who can hold the fool
Because as soon as the warm sharp knife
Touches his naked flesh
He’ll come to know what’ll happen
It’s not as messy or as hard as some may think,
It’s all about the flow of the wrist.
No doubt that the punk will twitch and scream
But ignore the donkey’s ass
And continue to slice back and forth
You’ll feel the knife hit the wind and food pipe
But don’t stop
Continue with all your might.
About now you should feel the knife vibrate,
You can feel the warm heat being given off,
But this is due to the friction being caused.


.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Could you please fix the quotes in your post?

There are no quotes in my post.

I have listed a number of points that you are either familiar with, or not.

If not, you should make yourself familiar with same, so as to have an informed opinion of the nature of Islam.

You quote me saying things you said, not what I said. You need to delete some of the script to make it right.

specify the post

 

[PoliticalChic]

the Koran promises the following to warriors who have died in battle for Islam: sex outside of marriage, alcoholic beverages, homosexuality.

Link?

Sex outside of marriage is forbidden to the extent of murder of those, almost exclusively the women, who infract the rule. Yet a warriors’ death entitles him to all sorts of free sex, and even “rivers of wine.”(Sura 47:15) Except, of course, the Koran allows the rape of infidel women (Sura 33:50). Deprived of normal sex, the culture also allows rape of women who refuse to wear headscarves (“An Islamic mufti in Copenhagen has sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are "asking for rape.")
The Copenhagen Post

And as a legal sentence: June 22, 2002 A Pakistani tribal council in Meerwala, a village in southern Punjab province, ordered that an 18-year-old girl be gang raped by four members of the council, to punish her family after her 11-year –old brother was seen walking unchaperoned with a girl from another tribe. Hundreds of people stood outside laughing and cheering as the men took turns in a mud hut.

And they will even be given pre-pubescent young boys, “beautiful, perpetually fresh pearls” (Sura 52:24, 56:17, 76:19)

 

[PoliticalChic]

I'm eagerly waiting to see how this is attributable to Islam.

The backwardness of the (Islamic) society makes them fodder for all the totalisms, such as Nazism, Communism, and Islamism.

So the backwardness of Christian Germany and Italy made them folder for their societies to embrace Nazism?

Or the backwardness of Christian Russia led them to communism?

Possibly, depending on your definition of backward.

All three are cults that seek a utopia that requires the destruction of what exists currently.

Communism alone destroyed over 100 million in this hunt for 'a workers' paradise."

Nazism, you are aware of.

Islam, how many have been offered the three choices of Sura 9:29 of the (Koran): conversion, submission with second-class status under Islamic rule, or death?

 

[Sunni Man]

You do realize the Quran says that the young boys are only waiters who serve NON- alcholic wine?

 

[Sunni Man]

The backwardness of the (Islamic) society makes them fodder for all the totalisms, such as Nazism, Communism, and Islamism.

So the backwardness of Christian Germany and Italy made them folder for their societies to embrace Nazism?

Or the backwardness of Christian Russia led them to communism?

Possibly, depending on your definition of backward.

All three are cults that seek a utopia that requires the destruction of what exists currently.

Communism alone destroyed over 100 million in this hunt for 'a workers' paradise."

Nazism, you are aware of.

Islam, how many have been offered the three choices of Sura 9:29 of the (Koran): conversion, submission with second-class status under Islamic rule, or death?

I see you are doing the old side step PoliticalChic

Seeing how you used the word initially.

Typical

 

[Ravi]

You do realize the Quran says that the young boys are only waiters who serve NON- alcholic wine?

bwahahahaha! Why would the Quran promise young boys as waiters?

 

[PoliticalChic]

You do realize the Quran says that the young boys are only waiters who serve NON- alcholic wine?

Now, now, you know many have interpreted these Sura as license for pederasty.
"Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness."
and
"•Sura 52:24. "And there shall wait on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."

In none of these Sura is the role of the fresh young boys stated.
True?

 

[Sunni Man]

Sura 52:24. And there shall "wait" on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls

If you have ever been to the middle east.

All waiters are male.