A question about salvation, being born again...

[Wyatt earp]

Any where in the scripture that says you can renounce you being a born again chirstian / renounce your salvation?


The senero : you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you were baptised ...


Later on your 7 year old son or daughter was raped , tortured and murdered ...


You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

What I read says that the Bible does not address it..



Discuss...



.

 

[night_son]

Any where in the scripture that says you can renounce you being a born again chirstian / renounce your salvation?


The senero : you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you were baptised ...


Later on your 7 year old son or daughter was raped , tortured and murdered ...


You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

What I read says that the Bible does not address it..



Discuss...



.

The easiest--and perhaps--best answer is: it's complicated.

What is your denomination? Your Church? Is your faith in and relationship with the Logos--Christ defined solely by the historical doctrines of either, or is it more personal, primal, intimate? Calvinists and other Protestants believe in Perseverance of the saints, or the perseverance of God in behalf of the saints, which essentially holds that no, one cannot be lost or fallen from God because once he or she has been "saved" the decision to "not be saved" is no longer a human one, but in God's hands alone, and God will never abandon or sever the "saved" from His covenant. Others call the same doctrine "Eternal security" or "Held by God". Catholicism is split on the matter. Some Catholic scholars believe being "saved" is eternal; salvation is assured. Others believe God allows men to be severed or fall away from ultimate salvation.

Then you have the concept of "carnal Christians" who think that since they are "saved" they can commit any sin--any atrocity--and still be guaranteed salvation. However, because they are not demonstrating "true saving faith" through "sanctification" which involves an insatiable desire for obedience to the living Word and desire to seek righteousness, they have not truly accepted Christ. Being "saved" at birth or how ever else, breaks the bondage of sin and frees the spirit toward these pursuits. So here, in the concept of the carnal Christian, could be an "out" for the fellow in your scenario, but there's also an important contradiction at work here. And it says that while the "born again" cannot just go out rape and pillage and expect to be rewarded with eternal life, someone who has been "saved" will not want to do that to begin with, due to sanctification and breakage of the bonds of sin, but according to some scholars, God will never abandon the "saved" regardless of acts after the fact.

So, to answer your question: it's complicated. Myself, I believe that a "good" man of faith, a "saved" believer cannot sever himself from ultimate salvation, but could use some redemption from time to time. However, I also believe Man was created to embody a small part of the Logos, and in fact does embody it from birth, in the form of his body, free will and personal responsibility and the moral foundations of factual right and wrong, so can never be "severed" from God, although can be condemned.

There's plenty of information out there on-the-line to be digested on the matter. Starting with "Perseverance of the saints". Also plenty of supporting biblical corroboration if you Google around. I do not like to post scripture online, so finding it is up to you.

 

[The Professor]

Within the Christian community, there is disagreement regarding whether or not salvation can be lost The “once saved, always saved” believers can find Bible verses to justify their belief in everlasting salvation. Here are a few examples of the verses they rely on (all references are to the KJV):

“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand” (John 10:28).

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand” (John 10:29).

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?” (Romans 8:35).

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come.. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”(Romans 8:38, 39).

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25).

However, not all Christians believe in the “once saved, always saved” doctrine. They believe salvation can be lost if after accepting Christ they return to a life of sin. Here are a few examples of the verses they rely upon:such verses:

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame” (Hebrews 6:4-6).

“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin....….For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Hebrews 10: 12-18; 26-31, emphasis my own).

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire” (2 Peter 2:20-22, emphasis my own).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:21-26).

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. ” (1 John 2:3-5).

That's the best I can do for you. What confuses me is that you describe someone who would “pray and tell him [ God] you don't want to go to heaven, you want to go to hell.” This tells me that the person acknowledge the existence of both. If he/she believes - as most Christians do - that Heaven is a place of endless joy and Hell a place of endless torment, your question regarding whether anyone could renounce your salvation is moot because one would not and could not ever choose the latter over the former. I do understand how a man would react with hurt and anger because he blames God for allowing what happened to his daughter. Been there, done that. My only son put a gun to his head when he was only twenty four.

One of the questions for the ages is: Why does God let bad things happen to good people? I don't know the answer to that one. I personally believe in a continued existence after death. For me, the idea of eternal life puts this brief physical existence in proper perspective: an eternity of joy will erase every human sorrow no matter how great; all the suffering we endured will no longer hurt in any way.

CONCLUSION: I've given you all I have. If your post applies to you, rather than being a hypothetical question, all I can say is that you will get through this. Your daughter already has.

Have a good night.

 

[JustAnotherNut]

Well of course YOU can turn your back on God......but once He's got you under His wing, He doesn't let go. Thing is, He understands the pain of losing a child to violence and/or any other hurts & disappointments we go thru. He's had billions of kids turn their backs on Him, but He's always there waiting to take you back.

Most people think that once you become a Christian life is all lollipops & fairy tales and easy peasy…...but it's really just the opposite. That's when the real battle for your soul begins, and Satan works overtime with his lies, deceit and evil to get you to turn your back on God. But even if you do, God is still there because He is victorious

 

[SweetSue92]

Any where in the scripture that says you can renounce you being a born again chirstian / renounce your salvation?


The senero : you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you were baptised ...


Later on your 7 year old son or daughter was raped , tortured and murdered ...


You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

What I read says that the Bible does not address it..



Discuss...



.

This is not a serious request. It's just to test Christians. Right?

 

[Penelope]

Any where in the scripture that says you can renounce you being a born again chirstian / renounce your salvation?


The senero : you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you were baptised ...


Later on your 7 year old son or daughter was raped , tortured and murdered ...


You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

What I read says that the Bible does not address it..



Discuss...



.

Where do you think your 7 year old daughter would be? Why would you want to go to the opposite place as her?

 

[hobelim]

Any where in the scripture that says you can renounce you being a born again chirstian / renounce your salvation?


The senero : you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you were baptised ...


Later on your 7 year old son or daughter was raped , tortured and murdered ...


You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

What I read says that the Bible does not address it..



Discuss...



.

This is not a serious request. It's just to test Christians. Right?

It seems more of a set up for people to argue amongst themselves while he sits back and laughs.




discuss.

 

[hobelim]

You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

lol...


it depends on the mood he is in or if he is on vacation or has his phone turned off. I heard he could be a little testy.

But..... if he was feeling generous and it was midnight during the full moon on a high holiday and you light a candle, pledge allegiance to the flag, drink some vodka, deny collusion, bring him the broomstick of the wicked witch of the west, and then burn some human dung as a soothing and fragrant offering, he just might grant your request and turn you from a great big bear into a blind monkey with tiny hands.

Can I get an ooh ohh ahh ahh?

 

[Wyatt earp]

Any where in the scripture that says you can renounce you being a born again chirstian / renounce your salvation?


The senero : you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you were baptised ...


Later on your 7 year old son or daughter was raped , tortured and murdered ...


You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

What I read says that the Bible does not address it..



Discuss...



.

The easiest--and perhaps--best answer is: it's complicated.

What is your denomination? Your Church? Is your faith in and relationship with the Logos--Christ defined solely by the historical doctrines of either, or is it more personal, primal, intimate? Calvinists and other Protestants believe in Perseverance of the saints, or the perseverance of God in behalf of the saints, which essentially holds that no, one cannot be lost or fallen from God because once he or she has been "saved" the decision to "not be saved" is no longer a human one, but in God's hands alone, and God will never abandon or sever the "saved" from His covenant. Others call the same doctrine "Eternal security" or "Held by God". Catholicism is split on the matter. Some Catholic scholars believe being "saved" is eternal; salvation is assured. Others believe God allows men to be severed or fall away from ultimate salvation.

Then you have the concept of "carnal Christians" who think that since they are "saved" they can commit any sin--any atrocity--and still be guaranteed salvation. However, because they are not demonstrating "true saving faith" through "sanctification" which involves an insatiable desire for obedience to the living Word and desire to seek righteousness, they have not truly accepted Christ. Being "saved" at birth or how ever else, breaks the bondage of sin and frees the spirit toward these pursuits. So here, in the concept of the carnal Christian, could be an "out" for the fellow in your scenario, but there's also an important contradiction at work here. And it says that while the "born again" cannot just go out rape and pillage and expect to be rewarded with eternal life, someone who has been "saved" will not want to do that to begin with, due to sanctification and breakage of the bonds of sin, but according to some scholars, God will never abandon the "saved" regardless of acts after the fact.

So, to answer your question: it's complicated. Myself, I believe that a "good" man of faith, a "saved" believer cannot sever himself from ultimate salvation, but could use some redemption from time to time. However, I also believe Man was created to embody a small part of the Logos, and in fact does embody it from birth, in the form of his body, free will and personal responsibility and the moral foundations of factual right and wrong, so can never be "severed" from God, although can be condemned.

There's plenty of information out there on-the-line to be digested on the matter. Starting with "Perseverance of the saints". Also plenty of supporting biblical corroboration if you Google around. I do not like to post scripture online, so finding it is up to you.

What is your denomination? Your Church?


Raised a Catholic , uncle that's a preist , a few great aunt nuns in my family..

Later on I church hop, babtist, methodist, etc..etc.. went to this one church for a while and we had a rabbi, priest and a preacher at the same church ..it was a community Church of God they called themselves.

I just brought up this question because in the past month been reading a few history books about the Christian religion.

.

 

[Wyatt earp]

BTW I got this question from the Arminanians (spl?) Around 90 AD?


1. On their own humans can do no good

2. Before the foundation of the world, God choose to save everyone who could freely chose to trust Christ

3. Jesus died for everyone, but his death only redeems believers


4. People can coose to reject God's attempts to save them

5. Scripture doesn't clearly state weather Christian's can forfeit their salvation.




.

 

[Wyatt earp]

You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

lol...


it depends on the mood he is in or if he is on vacation or has his phone turned off. I heard he could be a little testy.

But..... if he was feeling generous and it was midnight during the full moon on a high holiday and you light a candle, pledge allegiance to the flag, drink some vodka, deny collusion, bring him the broomstick of the wicked witch of the west, and then burn some human dung as a soothing and fragrant offering, he just might grant your request and turn you from a great big bear into a blind monkey with tiny hands.

Can I get an ooh ohh ahh ahh?

Testy?


No I always search for the truth , not a sheep or a parrot.


.

 

[hobelim]

You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

lol...


it depends on the mood he is in or if he is on vacation or has his phone turned off. I heard he could be a little testy.

But..... if he was feeling generous and it was midnight during the full moon on a high holiday and you light a candle, pledge allegiance to the flag, drink some vodka, deny collusion, bring him the broomstick of the wicked witch of the west, and then burn some human dung as a soothing and fragrant offering, he just might grant your request and turn you from a great big bear into a blind monkey with tiny hands.

Can I get an ooh ohh ahh ahh?

Testy?


No I always search for the truth , not a sheep or a parrot.


.

Then you will find your answer in 2 Peter 2: 20-22

 

[Wyatt earp]

Any where in the scripture that says you can renounce you being a born again chirstian / renounce your salvation?


The senero : you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you were baptised ...


Later on your 7 year old son or daughter was raped , tortured and murdered ...


You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

What I read says that the Bible does not address it..



Discuss...



.

Where do you think your 7 year old daughter would be? Why would you want to go to the opposite place as her?

That brings up another, would your daughter be your daughter in heaven, would your son be your son? Would your parents be your parents...


Remember scripture says if a man dies his brother should marry his wife..

She couldn't have 2~5 husband's in heaven, they couldn't fight over a wife in heaven.



.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Any where in the scripture that says you can renounce you being a born again chirstian / renounce your salvation?


The senero : you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you were baptised ...


Later on your 7 year old son or daughter was raped , tortured and murdered ...


You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

What I read says that the Bible does not address it..



Discuss...



.

Since God is imagined and scripture is subjective, if you can imagine yourself "Saved", you can imagine yourself "Un-Saved".

 

[hobelim]

Any where in the scripture that says you can renounce you being a born again chirstian / renounce your salvation?


The senero : you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you were baptised ...


Later on your 7 year old son or daughter was raped , tortured and murdered ...


You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

What I read says that the Bible does not address it..



Discuss...



.

Since God is imagined and scripture is subjective, if you can imagine yourself "Saved", you can imagine yourself "Un-Saved".

"Our Savior. Two thieves. One is supposed to have been saved and the other . . . (he searches for the contrary of saved) . . . damned."

"Saved from what?"

"We are all born mad, some remain so."

Waiting for Godot ....Samuel Beckett

 

[william the wie]

Predestination to both salvation and damnation was done before the foundation of the world. According to the parables of the Sower and the Tares nearly 90% of even the most strict congregations are damned.

 

[BreezeWood]

... but his death only redeems believers

that would require reading their book that is not legible by a standard language, best to believe what is spoken.

 

[hobelim]

... but his death only redeems believers

that would require reading their book that is not legible by a standard language, best to believe what is spoken.

 

[Wyatt earp]

... but his death only redeems believers

that would require reading their book that is not legible by a standard language, best to believe what is spoken.

I should find it and read it.


.

 

[Penelope]

Any where in the scripture that says you can renounce you being a born again chirstian / renounce your salvation?


The senero : you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you were baptised ...


Later on your 7 year old son or daughter was raped , tortured and murdered ...


You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

What I read says that the Bible does not address it..



Discuss...



.

Where do you think your 7 year old daughter would be? Why would you want to go to the opposite place as her?

That brings up another, would your daughter be your daughter in heaven, would your son be your son? Would your parents be your parents...


Remember scripture says if a man dies his brother should marry his wife..

She couldn't have 2~5 husband's in heaven, they couldn't fight over a wife in heaven.



.

Any where in the scripture that says you can renounce you being a born again chirstian / renounce your salvation?


The senero : you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you were baptised ...


Later on your 7 year old son or daughter was raped , tortured and murdered ...


You morned and hated GOD so much, you pray and tell him you don't want to go to heaven , you want to go to hell..



Can you do it ? Will GOD accept your request?

What I read says that the Bible does not address it..



Discuss...



.

Where do you think your 7 year old daughter would be? Why would you want to go to the opposite place as her?

That brings up another, would your daughter be your daughter in heaven, would your son be your son? Would your parents be your parents...


Remember scripture says if a man dies his brother should marry his wife..

She couldn't have 2~5 husband's in heaven, they couldn't fight over a wife in heaven.



.

You wouldn't want your daughter or son to see you suffering in hell would you?
According to scripture:
Luke 16:23–26
23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’