A Non-Believer's Perception of Christianity and Its Adherents

[JBeukema]

why is he begging for you?

 

[C-101]

Ha ha! I like that term: mega church. I guess this is one point, of many, where one has to have faith in order to "Get it".

Essentially yes. Parables unless explained by Christ in detail later in a Gospel can often be the hardest concepts to understand without some measure of faith or in other words "connection" to the Lord.

I guess its a matter of perspective, then?

Oh yes, definitely.

For me, there is no getting past the violence. A morality story based upon violence, even if the morality in the story isn't, is too open for misinterpretation and misconstrument for violence and seems inappropriate, especially for a faith which preaches "to turn the other cheek".

Ah, and this is where some knowledge of the Bible is required.

In the Old Testament, God introduced the concept of "an eye for an eye is a tooth for a tooth" whereas Christ comes along in the New Testament essentially revoking that concept by replacing it with "love your enemies" or in other words do not be vengeful.

Amazingly, these seeming "contradictions" are related to the plan of having an Old Testament and a New Testament later on. Christ did not just come to act as a sacrifice for our sins but also to bring about change and shake the foundation of Jewish tenets that were either devised by Men or corrupted from God's original intentions.

One thing that is clear in Matthew is that Christ states that He "did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it". What this means is that Man is no longer under the harsh laws of the flesh in the past, but under the Spirit of the Lord. A very complex topic and one that is intensely debated by "scholars". I say use scripture when in doubt instead of arguing. Here we go:

Colossians 2:11-23 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ.

Buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, and who raised Him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths,

Which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind.

And not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations--

“Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”

Which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

. . .

Romans 6:8-14 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.

For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that he lives, He lives to God.

Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

And do not present your members as instruments for unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

. . .

Romans 7:1-6
Or do you not know, brethren, that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is freed from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

But now we have been delivered from that law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Again, a complex matter. This new found liberty through Christ perplexes some "scholars" because they were raised believing that the Ten Commandments were sacred and unbreakable.

Christ symbolizes a new beginning, a new sense of liberty under the Spirit, a new set of standards by which a Christian should live, a preference of love/forgiveness over hate/vengeance, a removal of dependence upon law for guidance, and overall an invitation for anyone to seek, worship, and emulate Him so that they may some day join Him in Heaven.

So while the violence of the Old Testament may "turn you off", look to the New Testament for answers and explanations of the events of the Old Testament.

It is utterly amazing how interconnected every book of the Bible is to each other. Picking up a Bible with cross-references in the middle margins helps immensely with making this connections.

Ah, but there are consequences other than Hell. The only people who might not think so are those with antisocial personality disorder (people without consciences). I'm an agnostic so I have to find a reason for existence as there is seemingly no creator to have given me one. Now this is a very abstract and difficult subject to relate and one which would require a whole thread unto itself, so let me just make it short: My morality is based on giving life meaning. To act inhumanely or cause harm causes my life to be meaningless, and that is worse than death, even an eternal death (no afterlife). So I am forced to, if I wish to avoid meaninglessness, to act morally (and obviously my morals are different than yours but there are many ways in which they are similar). That is why, even though I don't believe in Hell, I will not commit evil acts.

Anyone is able to directly recognize immediate consequences for their actions in this life and act appropriately to reflect the nature of those consequences. However, Christians not only look at immediate consequences but at eternal consequences as well. The belief that you have not only consequences to face in this life but also after life in the presence of our Creator should establish a greater degree of morality and purpose.

But, as always, that is my opinion.

I think I understand why that would make sense to one with faith, but let me try to explain why it doesn't for someone like me:

I am a person whose mind works to make sense of the Universe, naturally we all are. All the stimuli that my senses encounter everyday are organized in my mind so that I can best understand my perceived reality. Part of the method for doing this is logic and reason, scientific logic and reason. Everything I've been exposed to regarding religion doesn't vibe with my personal experiences thereby making it impossible for me to have faith in any one religion. Sure, I could just choose to "believe" in Christianity but it wouldn't be sincere because I would have to somehow disbelieve or ignore what I've experienced. I would be one of those Christians who is just buying Afterlife Insurance. God would know the difference, would He not? Either way I am destined for Hell. So instead, I will be true to myself and live my life sincerely instead of being disingenous and living as a Christian. Does that make sense?

Well, sincerity is needed or else you're wasting your time. But profound changes in character have been witnessed by myself and many others when one is repeatedly exposed to true spirituality in Christianity.

Granted, if you go to a mega church focused on commercialism or a church where everyone is looking at their watches instead of developing their faith as a Christian you will find it hard to experience any sense of belonging.

Sadly, good churches are hard to come by these days but every once in awhile you will come across a rare church that emits a strong sense of spirituality.

Churches that display the true spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues are even rarer; an event I have witnessed only a few times in my life. (True tongues, that is.)

Couldn't God show himself to people like me, or to each individual on a basis which is most appropriate for that individual that would convince them of His existence? Why not? Why must He rely solely on faith when He gave us the ability to reason, which makes us, human beings, unique from every form on life on Earth? From a non-believer's perspective, this illogic is inescapable and unacceptable.

God will not force Himself upon anyone. People are at liberty to believe in Him or not.

Faith achieves a sort of loyalty, love, and dedication that is far superior to that of knowledge as the people in the Old Testament had. For even though Man possessed knowledge of God in the Old Testament they still rejected Him or only professed their admiration in words and not in heart. Once again, Romans Chp. 1 brilliantly demonstrates this fact, so if you get a chance read it or head on over to biblegateway on the web if you do not possess a Bible.

Anyway, non-believers live in a closed box of sorts in which only that which is logical, probable, and scientific is allowed. As long as they remain in that closed box they will never see the light of God nor find any truth in Christianity. God surpasses the logic, reasoning, and understanding of Men, and failure to realize that will result in a very negative outlook on Christianity.

I think you did. But I also think that for a person without faith and who relies on logic, that is a helluva hump to overcome. Especially when, for me, the "truth" of reality is impossible to know.

Being a true Christian is not easy, but getting over the "hump" as you say is well worth the effort. For many years I sat in church not understanding anything or even remotely experiencing any sort of faith. It was not until I actually began a daily habit of praying and reading the Bible that I first experienced the power of God.

So faith is not something you can simply absorb by being the presence of it, but rather it is something you must desire and open your heart to.

Reading the Bible was something that was always a strong source of faith just because of the weight of truth that can be felt by reading it with an open mind and heart.

I have not yet failed in my quest to find answers in the Bible and I have actually had a point by point correspondence with an agnostic friend of mine concerning the Bible. Never once did it fail under the test of my friend's skepticism. In fact, he never did really respond to me after I went all out and I wrote a paper using scripture all the way. He sort of conceded the debate and instead opted to use science as a means of "disproving" Christianity. Quite frankly, I was not interested in a debate of evolution. The nature of "how" is unimportant to me, however the "why" is extremely important to me.

Why is God so demanding of His acceptance? Is He really that worried about His popularity? Is He so petty and egomaniacal that his creations must love and worship Him? Now don't take that the wrong way, I'm not trying to insult your God. Its just how I, and many non-believers, perceive Him and why we reject Him.

I find that a strange response to a paragraph where I pointed out that Christ said "every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven Men". Is He really that demanding?

Of course, He expects much of his believers in faith but He is willing to accept anyone who accepts Him into Heaven.

Let's see, forgiveness of all sins and entry into Paradise in exchange for faith, repentance, devoted service, a strong sense of morality, and love.

Now that's what I call a steal!

But you see, its not baseless from my point of view. I don't want to be associated with a faith that is subject to corruption. Another of the many reasons why I, instead, do not have religious faith at all.

Well, I think you would be hard pressed to find any calling in life that is not subject to corruption.

Organized religion is just one of many countless things that man corrupts over time.

Actively defining who you are and what you stand for definitely helps to separate yourself from the corruption.

My pleasure. And displeasure. Ha!

Yeah, my brother is in the Army Reserves. Served in Special Operations as a PSYOP and was on occasion attached to units from the Marines and Navy SEALS during his tour in al-Anbar province in Iraq. He always gives me a laugh with some of his stories. When he was in AIT he told me that when he was receiving training in the driving of a Humvee the instructor told him to drive it like he stole it, lol.

Okay, but, nonetheless, many Christians have supported these wars (for whatever reason). I thought, and correct me if I am wrong, that Jesus preached to "turn the other cheek".

You may find this strange, but Christians sometimes support wars in the interests of what they think is best for the country. Not necessarily fighting it themselves, but rather support the troops in their mission. I myself, find it necessary to support just wars that genuinely combat evil. I think a heavier moral weight would be on my mind to sit around and do nothing while more Americans are needlessly killed.

Not really. I don't think the GOP is the party of the KKK, but the KKK votes Republican. Now why is that?

I did not know that there was polling data for the KKK.

I don't think science attempts to impose barriers so much as understand the nature of reality. Its a method of taking human perception and aligning it with reality as accurately as it can. To do this it uses mathematics (a kind of language) and language. By default that makes it so we can not actually know reality as it is (that and the fact that we perceive reality through our senses). We can not perceive reality objectively and therefore we can not know absolute truth. I think this is dicomfitting for many people; I know it is for me. But science is just a method of explaining reality so that human beings can understand what is happening around them. I guess God didn't concern Himself with that in the Bible?

No, because God does not operate within the confines of science.

Acts of divinity are in a category of their own, and merit no explanation grounded in science as such acts supersede that which is believed to be possible.

Furthermore, Paul writes that no one knows the mind of God and that His ways past are unsearchable.

Yes. Will you? I don't know. I wouldn't find it easy to forgive someone for doing that to me. But that doesn't change the fact that I should. I even thought that such forgiveness ,"as I forgive those who trespass against me", was a lesson of the Christian faith.

Here's a good scripture:

1 John 1:8-9 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Those acts described above just don't seem that terrible to me. If someone denies me, commits sins without remorse, and ridicules my beliefs, I don't think they deserve to feel as though they are burning alive for eternity. I think mercy should be unconditional. Retribution is not justice, and is not, as I perceive it, right or good.

Whether you like it or not, mercy is not unconditional. There must be repentance on the believer's part. If there is no repentance, no remorse, no call for forgiveness then forgiveness will not be granted because you did not ask for it.

The famous Biblical quote, "Ask, and it will be given to you" represents this clearly.

That, I would think, IS the point of faith and spiritual well-being: unconditional mercy and forgiveness and therefore: love of my fellow man.

If mercy was unconditional there would be no point in worshiping God or having faith. Faith is a necessity for forgiveness.

I'm just telling you how it is with Christianity. If you feel differently about it then I'm afraid I cannot say much more.

There is a branch of philosophy out there that wonders if we really do have free will. Let me explain: if you choose to murder somone, is it simply a decision you made or is it a long string of cause and effect, from your genetic predispositions, environmental factors, life situations etc. Kinda like the butterfly in Africa whose wings cause a hurricane in the Carribean. All the little factors in your life are what affects your decisions, and your previous decisions affect your future ones, even and especially the bad ones. This is a logical hypothesis and one that can't be verified or refuted with science. As human beings who wish to be in control of ourselves and our lives, this idea is repugnant to us. But that doesn't mean that it isn't valid and, to me, there does seem to be some logical validity to it. So I don't know if I am personally responsible for my actions and decisions, but that doesn't mean that I don't take responsibility for them. But, being unsure whether I practice free will or if I am forced, directly or indirectly, to make the decisions I do (not to mention the uncertainty principle of quantum mechanics which demonstrates that the occurrences in the Universe are probabilities and not certainties) I don't feel certain that the Creator would send his creations to Hell based upon their decisions.

External factors can only influence decision making. The human is able to go with the decision that is most accommodating to external factors or to go against the direction that such factors might point the person into.

Final decisions come down to the person, not genetics or environmental factors.

Are you talking about Christianity being more corrupted than other faiths? The above is a little vague.

Knowing that corruption is a given, the corruption can only be judged as compared to other instances of corruption. If corruption is relatively higher than it can be a problem.

Well, that seems to be the nature of life, huh?

Undoubtedly.

 

[JBeukema]

God will not force Himself upon anyone. People are at liberty to believe in Him or not.

according to the bible, god chooses who will be drawn to god- you have no say, so the 'choice' in meaningless

 

[C-101]

God will not force Himself upon anyone. People are at liberty to believe in Him or not.

according to the bible, god chooses who will be drawn to god- you have no say, so the 'choice' in meaningless

You say much and prove little.

 

[JBeukema]

it also says god's the source of all evil and suffering