A Navy Sailor on a rooftop in the desert?

[whitehall]

First let me say that I have nothing but the utmost respect for the memory of sniper Chris Kyle. He was a true hero and he did his duty with the utmost skill. My question is what the hell is a US Sailor doing on a rooftop in the desert? Seals are trained as Sailors. They go through Navy Boot Camp and learn whatever boot sailors learn like tying knots and swabbing decks and they have Navy ratings. I read Luttrell's book and it seems that Basic Seal training centers around withstanding hypothermia and paddling around in rubber boats. The best example of a Seal mission was rescuing Capt. Phillips from the Somoli pirates but they have no reason to be on a rooftop in the desert or on patrol in the mountains. The problem for the Navy was that they kept cranking out Seal graduates and started believing the hype and since we haven't had a Navy war in 75 years they didn't have much to do so they expanded the mission. The U.S. Army Rangers and Special Forces are well equipped to handle sniper missions and the Marines have had skilled snipers since the late great Gy. Sgt. Carlos Hathcock was killing V.C. Luttrell's book indicated that the Seals aren't really that good at ground tactics since his patrol was surrounded and wiped out and the hastily formed rescue was wiped out before they got off the helicopters. Luttrell was ultimately rescued by Army Rangers while hiding out in an Afghan village rather than rescued Afghans in a battle as the movie suggests.

 

[NLT]

Read up on the Seals.

 

[whitehall]

Seals, formerly U.D.T. have a unique set of skills related to combat at sea. They were initially used to scout amphibious landing sites in WW2 and to clear mine fields and to counter sabotage to U.S. ships. Seal basic school hasn't changed much since WW2 according to Luttrell's book "Lone Survivor". The training centers around the ability to withstand freezing sea water and to paddle rubber boats sometimes while unconscious. There is no shortage of skilled Army Troops or Marines for large ground operations and Marine Recon and Army Rangers are well equipped for special operations like snipers and intelligence. The confusion in rank structure and supplies and equipment of Navy personnel operating in the middle of Army and Marine missions isn't worth the trouble. According to Luttrell the elitist attitude of the Seals who refuse to be housed with other Military personnel because "we might blurt out secrets in our sleep" just adds to the confusion. What's the point of using Navy Trained Seals an a land based mission? Give them something to do and reinforce the hype?

 

[bodecea]

Read up on the Seals.

What NLT said.

 

[whitehall]

Read up on the Seals.

What NLT said.

Doesn't an eyewitness account of modern Seal training and missions by a retired Seal constitute "reading up"? Yeah, I base my opinion on the content of Luttrell's book. Do you suggest other sources or do you just want to post a couple of words and hope the post goes away?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Read up on Kyle.

 

[Tom Sweetnam]

Navy Seals. The only thing they ever did in Vietnam was bounce beach balls on their noses all day and conduct raids on the mess hall where they stole all the herring.

 

[whitehall]

I know what Kyle did and I respect him for it. He was a Sailor who did his duty and did it well. He isn't responsible for the Pentagon's decision to use Navy personnel in a land operation. He was just a tool and a political tool if you will. Is it alleged that the U.S. Army Special Forces and Rangers and the U.S. Marines who pioneered the use of snipers in Vietnam are incapable of coming up with snipers as skilled as Seals who attend the same sniper schools? It's a matter of funding and cooperation and basic training that makes the U.S. Army Rangers and Special Forces and the U.S. Marines the best at what they do. Why put a Sailor on a rooftop in the desert?

 

[Cross]

Kinda like asking why SEALS jump out of air planes like lawn darts...because they are trained to and then ordered to...

along the same line of reasoning behind some Army Special Forces going through the Combat Diving Qualification Course..."Special" doesn't mean limited skills or capabilities...

 

[whitehall]

Kinda like asking why SEALS jump out of air planes like lawn darts...because they are trained to and then ordered to...

along the same line of reasoning behind some Army Special Forces going through the Combat Diving Qualification Course..."Special" doesn't mean limited skills or capabilities...

Soldiers go through combat driving courses because the job involves combat driving. I bet there ain't a single Soldier who as ever learned to paddle a rubber raft or endure hypothermia training. That's the difference between the Army and the Navy.

 

[Cross]

Kinda like asking why SEALS jump out of air planes like lawn darts...because they are trained to and then ordered to...

along the same line of reasoning behind some Army Special Forces going through the Combat Diving Qualification Course..."Special" doesn't mean limited skills or capabilities...

Soldiers go through combat driving courses because the job involves combat driving. I bet there ain't a single Soldier who as ever learned to paddle a rubber raft or endure hypothermia training. That's the difference between the Army and the Navy.

Not "combat driving" you posted, "Combat Diving" I posted.

Special Forces Combat Diver Qualification Course SFCDQC

"SFCDQC has also added four days of training with combat rubber raiding craft and one day of kayak training. Teams now plan and conduct a double-duck operation (deploying, by parachute, two rubber boats bundled together) and helocast into a turtle-back dive and a beach landing site."

even the Rangers train in rubber boats...hypothermia training also...

 

[BULLDOG]

I know what Kyle did and I respect him for it. He was a Sailor who did his duty and did it well. He isn't responsible for the Pentagon's decision to use Navy personnel in a land operation. He was just a tool and a political tool if you will. Is it alleged that the U.S. Army Special Forces and Rangers and the U.S. Marines who pioneered the use of snipers in Vietnam are incapable of coming up with snipers as skilled as Seals who attend the same sniper schools? It's a matter of funding and cooperation and basic training that makes the U.S. Army Rangers and Special Forces and the U.S. Marines the best at what they do. Why put a Sailor on a rooftop in the desert?

You might want to do a little research on this guy you call a hero. I give him credit for the things he actually did do, but there is a long list of verified lies he told about his so called adventures. Beyond the lie he told about Ventura, he told claimed that the military sent him to New Orleans After Katrina and he sat on top of the Super Dome and shot 30 looters. He also claimed to have found WMD's in Iraq and to have killed 2 people who tried to rob him at a gas station in Texas, but the cops let him go after the Pentagon told them he was a hero. What a hero.

 

[Politico]

I don't know what is really crawling up your butt Whitehall. SEAL stands for sea air and land. They can operate in a duck pond or your back yard.

 

[whitehall]

I have no problem with individual Seals or the Navy Seal concept which is to engage in small maritime operations. Rescuing Capt. Phillips is a perfect example of the expert execution of Seal training. I can't get around the fact that the greatest Military in the world had to reach out to the Navy to find a sniper for a mission in the desert. Marcus Luttrell remarks in his book "I had to ask myself what Navy Seals were doing at 10,000 feet in the Afghanistan mountains". Damn good question Luttrell's book, "Lone Survivor" is a remarkable book about personal survival after a combat mission failed and the hastily cobbled rescue mission was destroyed. The movie had it's inaccuracies but if you were paying attention it showed two different Military branches with their own support and supply logistics trying to do the same job independently of each other. What was the Pentagon trying to accomplish? Did the mission in Afghanistan deteriorate into political hype by pretending that Seals were some kind of supermen? Obviously they weren't and their leadership seemed (according to Luttrell) ill equipped to support the Troops in the field. What was the rescue plan? Jump on helicopters and hope for the best?

 

[Cross]

I have no problem with individual Seals or the Navy Seal concept which is to engage in small maritime operations. Rescuing Capt. Phillips is a perfect example of the expert execution of Seal training. I can't get around the fact that the greatest Military in the world had to reach out to the Navy to find a sniper for a mission in the desert. Marcus Luttrell remarks in his book "I had to ask myself what Navy Seals were doing at 10,000 feet in the Afghanistan mountains". Damn good question Luttrell's book, "Lone Survivor" is a remarkable book about personal survival after a combat mission failed and the hastily cobbled rescue mission was destroyed. The movie had it's inaccuracies but if you were paying attention it showed two different Military branches with their own support and supply logistics trying to do the same job independently of each other. What was the Pentagon trying to accomplish? Did the mission in Afghanistan deteriorate into political hype by pretending that Seals were some kind of supermen? Obviously they weren't and their leadership seemed (according to Luttrell) ill equipped to support the Troops in the field. What was the rescue plan? Jump on helicopters and hope for the best?

What do you not understand about the Unified Command structure and how SOCOM is tasked to support Combat Commanders as well and other CORE activities?

 

[whitehall]

I have no problem with individual Seals or the Navy Seal concept which is to engage in small maritime operations. Rescuing Capt. Phillips is a perfect example of the expert execution of Seal training. I can't get around the fact that the greatest Military in the world had to reach out to the Navy to find a sniper for a mission in the desert. Marcus Luttrell remarks in his book "I had to ask myself what Navy Seals were doing at 10,000 feet in the Afghanistan mountains". Damn good question Luttrell's book, "Lone Survivor" is a remarkable book about personal survival after a combat mission failed and the hastily cobbled rescue mission was destroyed. The movie had it's inaccuracies but if you were paying attention it showed two different Military branches with their own support and supply logistics trying to do the same job independently of each other. What was the Pentagon trying to accomplish? Did the mission in Afghanistan deteriorate into political hype by pretending that Seals were some kind of supermen? Obviously they weren't and their leadership seemed (according to Luttrell) ill equipped to support the Troops in the field. What was the rescue plan? Jump on helicopters and hope for the best?

What do you not understand about the Unified Command structure and how SOCOM is tasked to support Combat Commanders as well and other CORE activities?

Tell me what I don't understand about the "Unified Command Structure"? Why would Army and Marine Combat Commanders want to reach out to limited mission specialists in the Navy when hundreds of qualified Snipers are already assigned to Army and Marine units with the logistic support already in place? My guess is that the fat asses in the Pentagon ordered the Army and Marines to accomodate the Seals with their Navy support units and different command structure for some obscure political gain related to the Hollywood version of the Seals.

 

[Cross]

I have no problem with individual Seals or the Navy Seal concept which is to engage in small maritime operations. Rescuing Capt. Phillips is a perfect example of the expert execution of Seal training. I can't get around the fact that the greatest Military in the world had to reach out to the Navy to find a sniper for a mission in the desert. Marcus Luttrell remarks in his book "I had to ask myself what Navy Seals were doing at 10,000 feet in the Afghanistan mountains". Damn good question Luttrell's book, "Lone Survivor" is a remarkable book about personal survival after a combat mission failed and the hastily cobbled rescue mission was destroyed. The movie had it's inaccuracies but if you were paying attention it showed two different Military branches with their own support and supply logistics trying to do the same job independently of each other. What was the Pentagon trying to accomplish? Did the mission in Afghanistan deteriorate into political hype by pretending that Seals were some kind of supermen? Obviously they weren't and their leadership seemed (according to Luttrell) ill equipped to support the Troops in the field. What was the rescue plan? Jump on helicopters and hope for the best?

What do you not understand about the Unified Command structure and how SOCOM is tasked to support Combat Commanders as well and other CORE activities?

Tell me what I don't understand about the "Unified Command Structure"? Why would Army and Marine Combat Commanders want to reach out to limited mission specialists in the Navy when hundreds of qualified Snipers are already assigned to Army and Marine units with the logistic support already in place? My guess is that the fat asses in the Pentagon ordered the Army and Marines to accomodate the Seals with their Navy support units and different command structure for some obscure political gain related to the Hollywood version of the Seals.

Why would a Marine Commander not request the best, a Two man SEAL sniper Team, Especially in a tough MOUT fight? They proved themselves to be a valuable asset for Commanders in Afghanistan and Iraq....What support that Kyle needed was not provided by the Unit he was attached to?

You obviously know that Kyle wasn't posted by the Pentagon...So I guess your beef is with SOCOM, NSWC or CENTCOM, still don't quite understand your point...unless your beef is really the Red Wings Operation which was quite different than Kyle's mission...

 

[Mr. H.]

Anyone notice in the movie how the sniper positioned his weapon atop the elliptical-shaped drum?
How stupid was that? It was rocking back and forth.

I mean, that shit was worse than the fake babby.

This movie was like eating mashed potatoes with chopsticks. Clint Eastwood can get off my lawn.

 

[Cross]

Anyone notice in the movie how the sniper positioned his weapon atop the elliptical-shaped drum?
How stupid was that? It was rocking back and forth.

I mean, that shit was worse than the fake babby.

This movie was like eating mashed potatoes with chopsticks. Clint Eastwood can get off my lawn.

Artistic License...just like much of Heartbreak Ridge..,it's a movie

 

[whitehall]

I think I have it figured out. A sniper's life was pretty short in the 20th century. In order to get a shot at an enemy and pick off an officer they had to put themselves in positions where they were vulnerable to other snipers and fire from ordinary soldiers. Vietnam snipers like Hathcock and Mawhinney operated close to the enemy and lived in the field for weeks with meager supplies. I'm not taking anything away from snipers in Iraq and Afghanistan. They lived pretty well in comparison to other conflicts but they performed an important duty in a war without uniforms. A jihad suicidal enemy could be considered a civilian with the stroke of a computer key if the media was inclined. The Pentagon was well aware of the Seal's Hollywood reputation so if they were placed in a position where civilians were the targets it might be more palatable to the news media and liberals if Seals pulled the trigger and not regular Soldiers. Why Seals ended up on patrol in the mountains is anybody's guess. Maybe we should ask the CIA.