A Middle-Age Child's Nutty Demand

[gallantwarrior]

The church acknowledges there is sin in the world and victory over sin is fleeting at best. Certainly expanding the knowledge of sex and its availability, while decreasing the voice of morality will not improve a thing. Then again, that wasn't really your intent now, was it?

I don't really have any intent, just an opinion on what is the most economical thing to do here. I don't want to get into personal details here but I can tell you that unwanted pregnancies can be brutal on people. And not just the people who cause the event. When a 16 and 17 year old pair of kids end up pregnant because they lacked access to birth control but at the same time, did not want to abort, let me tell you what happens: Two very unprepared young people with little education and little earning power and little parenting skills end up trying to do something with the odds stack incredibly against them. The mother ends up single with a child she can't support and goes on the public dole. Even if the father tires, he didn't get to go to even tech school so he's not educated enough to earn much of a living and now he has two roofs to try and maintain. The child doesn't get raised right and he ends up being a criminal and yet more cost to society.

Now... I said I didn't want to get too personal, but that's a short version, first hand story from a middle class, Christian, Baptist raised white boy who was an honor roll student and on his way to UNC to be an orthodontist. But something else happened. I am pro life but I sure do support birth control for anyone who is anywhere near realistic about how unwanted pregnancies happen. My sister, who talked this same talk that I hear right here in this place, recently admitted to me that she sat down with her 16 year old son's - girlfriends- mother and had a talk about BC. And the girl is now on it. I am SURE our church has NO IDEA she is on it but the reality is that my sister watched me not only alter the path of my life, but also bring into the world a son, whom I do love very much, but unfortunately is a statisitc, sitting in prison.

Now... you don't HAVE to take my word for it, but I am not operating in theory here.

No, your just full of excuses and generalizations. People have choices and sometimes make poor ones.

You can tell a lot about a person by the way they deal with their decisions, both good and bad.

 

[Sweet Willy]

The church acknowledges there is sin in the world and victory over sin is fleeting at best. Certainly expanding the knowledge of sex and its availability, while decreasing the voice of morality will not improve a thing. Then again, that wasn't really your intent now, was it?

I don't really have any intent, just an opinion on what is the most economical thing to do here. I don't want to get into personal details here but I can tell you that unwanted pregnancies can be brutal on people. And not just the people who cause the event. When a 16 and 17 year old pair of kids end up pregnant because they lacked access to birth control but at the same time, did not want to abort, let me tell you what happens: Two very unprepared young people with little education and little earning power and little parenting skills end up trying to do something with the odds stack incredibly against them. The mother ends up single with a child she can't support and goes on the public dole. Even if the father tires, he didn't get to go to even tech school so he's not educated enough to earn much of a living and now he has two roofs to try and maintain. The child doesn't get raised right and he ends up being a criminal and yet more cost to society.

Now... I said I didn't want to get too personal, but that's a short version, first hand story from a middle class, Christian, Baptist raised white boy who was an honor roll student and on his way to UNC to be an orthodontist. But something else happened. I am pro life but I sure do support birth control for anyone who is anywhere near realistic about how unwanted pregnancies happen. My sister, who talked this same talk that I hear right here in this place, recently admitted to me that she sat down with her 16 year old son's - girlfriends- mother and had a talk about BC. And the girl is now on it. I am SURE our church has NO IDEA she is on it but the reality is that my sister watched me not only alter the path of my life, but also bring into the world a son, whom I do love very much, but unfortunately is a statisitc, sitting in prison.

Now... you don't HAVE to take my word for it, but I am not operating in theory here.

No, your just full of excuses and generalizations. People have choices and sometimes make poor ones.

And your idea is that rather than offer the choice of BC so that there an extra choice beside the poor one, let's deny young people a choice that will save them and the rest of us from having to raise unwanted children.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Not so fast.....

"How's the great contraception mandate battle of 2012 playing out? If you read the Washington Post's news coverage, the issue is supposedly killing Republicans among female voters. But the newest Washington Post/ABC poll tells a different story.

Then, from March 7 to 10--a week into the national media firestorm surrounding Rush Limbaugh's degrading remarks about Georgetown Law student and liberal activist Sandra Fluke--Washington Post/ABC conducted another poll. It found Obama's approval rating at 46 percent, down four points from February, and his disapproval rating at 50 percent, up four points from February.

The Post/ABC poll asked Americans, "Do you think health insurance companies should or should not be required to cover the full cost of birth control for women?" It found that 61 percent of Americans think insurance companies should be required to pay for it. But if "the insurance is provided through a religiously affiliated employer that objects to birth control, however, support for this requirement drops to 49 percent (52 percent of women, 45 percent of men)." (It's worth noting that polls on this issue have varied significantly depending on how the question is asked. When a poll specifies that the "federal government" is the entity requiring employers to pay for birth control coverage, support for the mandate in general is evenly split.)

The bottom line is that it's not clear at all that the fight over the contraception/abortifacient mandate has hurt Republicans."
Obama Fares Worse Among Women after Month-Long Contraception Mandate Battle | The Weekly Standard

I'm not sure I understand how this relates, completely. I see that there is a split there about whether or not contraception should be provided but contraception isn't really what I was getting at with the above post. I'm talking about sexual habits. The stuff that causes babies. The number of people who support / do not support birth control on an insurance plan doesn't speak to the facts of sexual promiscuity, which is the heart of this matter. We know how many Christians we have in the country and we know what the incidents of teen pregnancy, unwanted pregnancy and abortion are. There is little doubt that Christians have lost control of the issue in a big way. If they have been unable to step up to the plate and show us some results on lowering these rates of sex related cost to society, there is just no kind of authority here to get in the way of the public trying to address the issue, no matter what opinion polls say. The number of sex related incidents are not a matter of opinion. These are black and white facts and in a country that is widely recognized and held as a Christian nation, this a monumental failure of the church to show results in it's own flock.

Try this: Once upon a time, the family was an important social unit. Divorce was very uncommon, an admission of failure for both parties. Divorce used to require a grounds be provided before being granted. Now, we have "no-fault" divorce where one or both parties appear before a magistrate and declare they just cannot deal with being married, no specific reason needed. What once occurred because of some shameful behavior now is "no fault".
Once upon a time, becoming pregnant out-of-wedlock was shameful. The family was shamed, the girl was shamed, in some instances, even the boy was shamed. If the sperm donor could not be persuaded to "do the right thing", the young lady in question was shipped off to the a suitable relative until relieved of her shameful burden, often given up for adoption or taken in by another relative.
Much of the behavior presented as entertainment, in every public venue, used to be shameful. Nudity, foul language, criminal activity, brutality, sexuality, etc. were all considered unacceptable for decent people.
Of course, we do have a choice. We can turn off, tune out, and maybe play Monopoly with our children, eat dinner around the family table. But for various reasons, excuses, it is far easier not to do those things. We should be ashamed that we have allowed ourselves to be dragged down into the cesspool our society has become. That will not happen until we pull our collective heads out of our collective butts and demand decency, live decency. We need to reclaim shame.

Interestingly enough, my father was born out of wed lock in 1947 to a 16 year old mother. The father was a NC State Trooper, a Jr. deacon in the church. You, of course, pretty much laid out the rest of the story. I have it set to music even if you'd like to hear:

Jon Durham - A Good Hard Rain - Tindeck MP3 Download

He was adopted by poor farmers ... well... you'll just have to listen.

 

[saveliberty]

And your idea is that rather than offer the choice of BC so that there an extra choice beside the poor one, let's deny young people a choice that will save them and the rest of us from having to raise unwanted children.

It is offered, you just think free and devoid of morality is a requirement. Is that what you call your grandchild? Unwanted?

 

[Sweet Willy]

And your idea is that rather than offer the choice of BC so that there an extra choice beside the poor one, let's deny young people a choice that will save them and the rest of us from having to raise unwanted children.

It is offered, you just think free and devoid of morality is a requirement. Is that what you call your grandchild? Unwanted?

My son.

He was not planned. I wouldn't wish the decisions I have made on anyone. I have my shame but not so much so that I hide from a rational discussion of the issue.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I'm not sure I understand how this relates, completely. I see that there is a split there about whether or not contraception should be provided but contraception isn't really what I was getting at with the above post. I'm talking about sexual habits. The stuff that causes babies. The number of people who support / do not support birth control on an insurance plan doesn't speak to the facts of sexual promiscuity, which is the heart of this matter. We know how many Christians we have in the country and we know what the incidents of teen pregnancy, unwanted pregnancy and abortion are. There is little doubt that Christians have lost control of the issue in a big way. If they have been unable to step up to the plate and show us some results on lowering these rates of sex related cost to society, there is just no kind of authority here to get in the way of the public trying to address the issue, no matter what opinion polls say. The number of sex related incidents are not a matter of opinion. These are black and white facts and in a country that is widely recognized and held as a Christian nation, this a monumental failure of the church to show results in it's own flock.

Try this: Once upon a time, the family was an important social unit. Divorce was very uncommon, an admission of failure for both parties. Divorce used to require a grounds be provided before being granted. Now, we have "no-fault" divorce where one or both parties appear before a magistrate and declare they just cannot deal with being married, no specific reason needed. What once occurred because of some shameful behavior now is "no fault".
Once upon a time, becoming pregnant out-of-wedlock was shameful. The family was shamed, the girl was shamed, in some instances, even the boy was shamed. If the sperm donor could not be persuaded to "do the right thing", the young lady in question was shipped off to the a suitable relative until relieved of her shameful burden, often given up for adoption or taken in by another relative.
Much of the behavior presented as entertainment, in every public venue, used to be shameful. Nudity, foul language, criminal activity, brutality, sexuality, etc. were all considered unacceptable for decent people.
Of course, we do have a choice. We can turn off, tune out, and maybe play Monopoly with our children, eat dinner around the family table. But for various reasons, excuses, it is far easier not to do those things. We should be ashamed that we have allowed ourselves to be dragged down into the cesspool our society has become. That will not happen until we pull our collective heads out of our collective butts and demand decency, live decency. We need to reclaim shame.

Interestingly enough, my father was born out of wed lock in 1947 to a 16 year old mother. The father was a NC State Trooper, a Jr. deacon in the church. You, of course, pretty much laid out the rest of the story. I have it set to music even if you'd like to hear:

Jon Durham - A Good Hard Rain - Tindeck MP3 Download

He was adopted by poor farmers ... well... you'll just have to listen.

And what, pray tell, is wrong with being a poor farmer? An off-grid, poor farmer? We are never hungry. And riches can be counted in more than a bank account balance or the amount of "stuff" you lay claim to.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Try this: Once upon a time, the family was an important social unit. Divorce was very uncommon, an admission of failure for both parties. Divorce used to require a grounds be provided before being granted. Now, we have "no-fault" divorce where one or both parties appear before a magistrate and declare they just cannot deal with being married, no specific reason needed. What once occurred because of some shameful behavior now is "no fault".
Once upon a time, becoming pregnant out-of-wedlock was shameful. The family was shamed, the girl was shamed, in some instances, even the boy was shamed. If the sperm donor could not be persuaded to "do the right thing", the young lady in question was shipped off to the a suitable relative until relieved of her shameful burden, often given up for adoption or taken in by another relative.
Much of the behavior presented as entertainment, in every public venue, used to be shameful. Nudity, foul language, criminal activity, brutality, sexuality, etc. were all considered unacceptable for decent people.
Of course, we do have a choice. We can turn off, tune out, and maybe play Monopoly with our children, eat dinner around the family table. But for various reasons, excuses, it is far easier not to do those things. We should be ashamed that we have allowed ourselves to be dragged down into the cesspool our society has become. That will not happen until we pull our collective heads out of our collective butts and demand decency, live decency. We need to reclaim shame.

Interestingly enough, my father was born out of wed lock in 1947 to a 16 year old mother. The father was a NC State Trooper, a Jr. deacon in the church. You, of course, pretty much laid out the rest of the story. I have it set to music even if you'd like to hear:

Jon Durham - A Good Hard Rain - Tindeck MP3 Download

He was adopted by poor farmers ... well... you'll just have to listen.

And what, pray tell, is wrong with being a poor farmer? An off-grid, poor farmer? We are never hungry.

Who said there was anything wrong with that? That's where I come from.

 

[saveliberty]

And your idea is that rather than offer the choice of BC so that there an extra choice beside the poor one, let's deny young people a choice that will save them and the rest of us from having to raise unwanted children.

It is offered, you just think free and devoid of morality is a requirement. Is that what you call your grandchild? Unwanted?

My son.

He was not planned. I wouldn't wish the decisions I have made on anyone. I have my shame but not so much so that I hide from a rational discussion of the issue.

I would guess you can free yourself of shame. Most likely you were a good parent and he made poor choices against your advice huh? No one know the future and he could well do great things still.

 

[Immanuel]

And your idea is that rather than offer the choice of BC so that there an extra choice beside the poor one, let's deny young people a choice that will save them and the rest of us from having to raise unwanted children.

It is offered, you just think free and devoid of morality is a requirement. Is that what you call your grandchild? Unwanted?

My son.

He was not planned. I wouldn't wish the decisions I have made on anyone. I have my shame but not so much so that I hide from a rational discussion of the issue.

You know, I read your story and I was not going to comment because it was personal, but I need to commend you and the mother of your son, not sure if you married her. You chose to give life when you could have taken the easy way out and had an abortion.

As I was reading the story, I was thinking, "did you ever hear of adoption?" but you made a choice and seem to have stuck with it through thick and thin. I think that is commendable.

Don't answer this because this discussion is too personal anyway, but I wonder if your parents and her parents helped you out. If I had been in your shoes, I would have gone to my parents and asked them to adopt the child, if the mother's parents couldn't or wouldn't.

I commend you and the mother of your son for making that difficult decision. The fact that your son is now in prison... well, I don't know the circumstances to that nor can I comment except to say that I hope all works out for the best for him.

Immie

 

[Sweet Willy]

It is offered, you just think free and devoid of morality is a requirement. Is that what you call your grandchild? Unwanted?

My son.

He was not planned. I wouldn't wish the decisions I have made on anyone. I have my shame but not so much so that I hide from a rational discussion of the issue.

I would guess you can free yourself of shame. Most likely you were a good parent and he made poor choices against your advice huh? No one know the future and he could well do great things still.

I was a terrible parent. I was unprepared to be one and had no business with a child at the age of 17. Now, I probably had more pride and "decent" Christian upbringing than most. I spent my Junior and Senior years of High School going to class from 8 - 3:30 and pumping diesel fuel from 4 - 12 in order to support a family and graduate from school. My son was at my graduation. His mother and I stayed together for four years but ultimately did not make it as a family. I never took then, nor have I ever taken one single penny of public assistance. Once his mother left with my son, she did take PA and had several other children before it was all said and done. I paid support but that doesn't raise the child and the fact is, children from broken homes are astronomically more likely to end up in all sorts of trouble.

In the end, my mistake in the back seat of an Oldsmobile, despite being raised with a fine Baptist upbringing, COST YOU. I know better now. I did not know better then. Does that put the food stamps my son consumed back in the kitty? Does it get him out of prison and out of the public pocket?

It is MUCH better to allow access, even pay for access if we have to, for birth control, in my humble and I think qualified, opinion.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Parents helped... considered adoption, she couldn't bear the thought of it.

You know, I understand that most of this site is just a big mud slinging contest, but if you can't get personal about WHY you believe what you believe, a lot of this talk is just talk. I don't want to listen to someone tell me they believe a certain way because the church says so or Obama says so or Rush says so. Tell me what you life experience says and then we're onto something.

 

[Immanuel]

Parents helped... considered adoption, she couldn't bear the thought of it.

You know, I understand that most of this site is just a big mud slinging contest, but if you can't get personal about WHY you believe what you believe, a lot of this talk is just talk. I don't want to listen to someone tell me they believe a certain way because the church says so or Obama says so or Rush says so. Tell me what you life experience says and then we're onto something.

It is not that I don't think you should get personal or that I don't get personal myself, but I tend to avoid commenting on someone's personal experience, because inevitably, someone else takes your comments and twists them around into something you didn't say.

Likely, they will have me telling you that I think you are an awful person because your son ended up in prison before the night is through.

Immie

 

[Sweet Willy]

Parents helped... considered adoption, she couldn't bear the thought of it.

You know, I understand that most of this site is just a big mud slinging contest, but if you can't get personal about WHY you believe what you believe, a lot of this talk is just talk. I don't want to listen to someone tell me they believe a certain way because the church says so or Obama says so or Rush says so. Tell me what you life experience says and then we're onto something.

It is not that I don't think you should get personal or that I don't get personal myself, but I tend to avoid commenting on someone's personal experience, because inevitably, someone else takes your comments and twists them around into something you didn't say.

Likely, they will have me telling you that I think you are an awful person because your son ended up in prison before the night is through.

Immie

No worries. I stand up and take whatever I have coming for my short comings and misgivings.

 

[Immanuel]

Parents helped... considered adoption, she couldn't bear the thought of it.

You know, I understand that most of this site is just a big mud slinging contest, but if you can't get personal about WHY you believe what you believe, a lot of this talk is just talk. I don't want to listen to someone tell me they believe a certain way because the church says so or Obama says so or Rush says so. Tell me what you life experience says and then we're onto something.

It is not that I don't think you should get personal or that I don't get personal myself, but I tend to avoid commenting on someone's personal experience, because inevitably, someone else takes your comments and twists them around into something you didn't say.

Likely, they will have me telling you that I think you are an awful person because your son ended up in prison before the night is through.

Immie

No worries. I stand up and take whatever I have coming for my short comings and misgivings.

Obviously you do. So you should also take the compliments when they come your way.

Immie

 

[gallantwarrior]

Parents helped... considered adoption, she couldn't bear the thought of it.

You know, I understand that most of this site is just a big mud slinging contest, but if you can't get personal about WHY you believe what you believe, a lot of this talk is just talk. I don't want to listen to someone tell me they believe a certain way because the church says so or Obama says so or Rush says so. Tell me what you life experience says and then we're onto something.

It is not that I don't think you should get personal or that I don't get personal myself, but I tend to avoid commenting on someone's personal experience, because inevitably, someone else takes your comments and twists them around into something you didn't say.

Likely, they will have me telling you that I think you are an awful person because your son ended up in prison before the night is through.

Immie

No worries. I stand up and take whatever I have coming for my short comings and misgivings.

You can always tell the quality of a person by how they deal with their actions, good or bad. You have my respect for your candor.

 

[saveliberty]

Granted I was marriedand we both received college degrees, we had three daughters. Still, there was a divorce and the one thing we did do right from then on was consider our daughters first and foremost. As a result, no one ended up in prison or pregnant before college graduations.

You're a part of the equation, not the whole thing. Parenting never ends. My oldest is three months pregnant after a divorce last summer. A surprise to be sure, not one single moment unwanted. You are a quality person SW. We see this very differently.

 

[Sweet Willy]

I don't think that seeing things differently is a bad thing, that's what makes us work as neighbors and countrymen. What I think is dysfunctional is when we carry on these conversations as a function of pure politics. I don't know the PC lady that started this topic, I'm sure she's a smart one but the argument is presented and supported as some sort of political football based on what is obviously a cold and hard political agenda. Lots of the folks here look to be working on campaigns, not problems. I don't know this lady, Fluke, don't want to know her. I don't defend her nor support her. I don't go out on a limb to bash her or praise her. I don't know her. I don't think anyone here knows her. Making any part of this discussion about her is either a mistake or just some people killing time for the sake of killing time.

The church doesn't hold enough sway over it's congregation to address the issue of teen pregnancy and unintended pregnancies. The solution of abstinence has been ineffective on a monumental scale. Abortion is at least morally questionable if not completely unacceptable to most Christians. Divorce, single parents and children living in poverty is going UP, not down, as the influence of the Church has been on the RISE in politics. This is not a hard picture to draw this very basic conclusion from: The church has failed it's own on the issue. Now it wants to stand in the way of others trying to address the same problem. It makes no sense fiscally or morally to actively stand in the way of birth control. If you do, you are effectively contributing to at least two other things that you don't want: ABORTIONS and CHILDREN IN POVERTY.

Time to rise above this pettiness about birth control pills. There are bigger fish to fry in this pond.

 

[saveliberty]

Part of the problem SW, is that you're asking us to prove a negative. I'm sure many people have NOT had a pregnancy because they thought about what was said in church and tried to be responsible. The church's issue is salvation from sin, not total sin prevention. Are you seriously suggesting the state has a higher moral authority than religion?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Part of the problem SW, is that you're asking us to prove a negative. I'm sure many people have NOT had a pregnancy because they thought about what was said in church and tried to be responsible. The church's issue is salvation from sin, not total sin prevention. Are you seriously suggesting the state has a higher moral authority than religion?

No, not at all. I don't think the state has much moral authority at all on the issue. The state's interest is economical. Prevention of unintended pregnancies save money. That's the angle. And I surely am not asking you to prove any sort of negative. I've never asked anyone to prove that the church kept anyone from having sex. I'm sure there must be those that are affected by the Churches values. But the numbers otherwise are just not ignorable. I've alluded to them several times now. Somewhere over 80% of our population is Christian. About half of the population reports attending church weekly and that is ON THE RISE. Another 15% says they attend once or twice a month, again, a number on the rise. We are not out of touch with the Church. Yet, while Church attendance is UP, the teen pregnancy numbers are horrible.

80% of teens pregnancies are out of wed.

80% of teen pregnancy is unintended.

40% of girls who had sex at 13 or 14 say it was INVOLUNTARY.

80% end up on welfare.

This is not hard to figure out. No, we can't prove the negative of how many pregnancies the churches influence may prevent, but we can see that despite the Churches overwhelming contact with Americans the numbers of people they DON'T REACH shows the ineffectiveness. Saying that we don't know how many pregnancies would happen without the church is a reason to NOT want birth control is like saying that because we don't know how many people hunter safety courses keep from getting shot, there is no need for a safety on the gun.

I'm sorry, maybe we just agree to disagree, but from where I sit, and I sit in the church too, the message isn't effective enough. And it's not because the kids aren't there. They are. There are just way too many of them having sex too early. And while I sure am rooting for the Church to make a better showing and gain ground, they aren't.... but I know what does work when people are allowed to have it.

 

[saveliberty]

Somehow, I think one morning of church is not enough. You have the whole rest of the week to see the opposite messages thrown at kids on TV, music, games and other media.