A Matter Of Honor

Discussion in 'Middle East - General' started by NATO AIR, Sep 28, 2005.

  1. NATO AIR
    Offline

    NATO AIR Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    4,275
    Thanks Received:
    282
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    USS Abraham Lincoln
    Ratings:
    +282
    Once the investigation is complete, heads need to roll, and I don't just mean in the 82nd Airborne....completely unsat

     
  2. CSM
    Offline

    CSM Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,907
    Thanks Received:
    708
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Northeast US
    Ratings:
    +708
    I will wait and see on this one...I am not so sure the good Capt or the letter is legit. I will check it out though.
     
  3. theim
    Offline

    theim Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,628
    Thanks Received:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    Ratings:
    +234
    I agree that confusion on what is and is not acceptable needs to be cleared up. But the one argument that I am getting annoyed with is this one:

    Which sounds just fine, except this kind of pie-in-the-sky attitude is the exact thing that drives imbeciles like Amnesty International to declare that Gitmo is a gulag because of Harry Potter being read by females and Infidel guards daring to touch the Q'u'r'a'n without gloves, and that anything less than putting up inmates in a five-star hotel suite is torture. Hey, we're Americans, so we must be held to a higher standard. Any other Imperialist Warmongering Power Controlled By the Zionist Entity would only go for four stars.

    Now I'm not saying its cool to break people's legs or cut open their arms or anything reminescent of...oh...pretty much any enemy we have ever fought against.

    Which leads me to agree with the overall point of the letter. A standard must be marked that makes Soviet-style stuff totally out of bounds, but at the same time fully states that non-gloved guards and Harry Potter-reading females are acceptable.
     
  4. CSM
    Offline

    CSM Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,907
    Thanks Received:
    708
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Northeast US
    Ratings:
    +708
    Yep, he is for real all right.

    That being said I'll wait on the investigation to be complete before passing judgement. I am willing to bet that the libs will be crying for administration blood before that though. I find it really ironic that those so unwilling to condemn all Muslims as terrorists are the same folks who want the entire US condemned because of the actions of a few.

    I would also point out that unless the 82d is different, every soldier is taught how to handle prisoners and should know exactly how they are to be treate. I never had anyone indicate anything less than the Geneva Convention as acceptable. I know of no units that have been told otherwise either...and I know of a lot of units.

    What really disturbs me is that no commander in this officer's chain of command had the balls to take a stand and state precisely what was the correct course of action and state exactly how the prisoners were to be treated.
     
  5. NATO AIR
    Offline

    NATO AIR Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    4,275
    Thanks Received:
    282
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    USS Abraham Lincoln
    Ratings:
    +282
    We discussed this today during our GMT (general military training), which we actually are doing for the first time in 2 years because we now have an 0-6 XO (executive officer) who runs things with an iron fist (largely for the better)...

    An officer brought up a good point; the tactics utilized at Gitmo are not "abuse" because they are in a controlled environment with no chance of escape, no chance of attack from the outside, no outside interference, etc etc. HIGHLY CONTROLLED, STABLE ENVIRONMENT with very little crisis-like pressure to get information. We're taking our time with these guys.

    However, the same tactics when utilized in Iraq and Afghanistan have wrought disaster because they're under completely different circumstances now, there is no real stable environment, terrorists/insurgents everywhere, constant threat of attack, constant outside interference, and oh by the way, the pressure to get intel is often severe. the insurgent you capture at noon may have the key to a terrorist bombing you've heard about that is supposed to happen that night, you know the insurgent knows, but he won't tell you, now you're under pressure and forced to take actions you normally wouldn't to try to get information out of him.

    This along with the fact the Army was using poorly trained personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan because it didn't have enough intel and military police. Whereas at Gitmo, the Navy has special billets for the master at arms (and temporary master at arms) (navy military police) that entail extensive training and supervision before they actually go to Gitmo and have regular responsibilties.
     
  6. NATO AIR
    Offline

    NATO AIR Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    4,275
    Thanks Received:
    282
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    USS Abraham Lincoln
    Ratings:
    +282
    That is also what really disturbs me, besides the consequences of this for our counter-insurgency efforts in iraq and afghanistan.

    but seriously, even on the most messed up day on my ship or in the navy (and there are quite a few), i could never imagine something so important be so ignored by the chain of command. yet its happened here, and its happened on other occasions in our past, always to our detriment.

    an understandable outcry may come from the military that it is the civilians like rumsfeld who are really to blame for this, and that may have some truth. but at this point, we can only sit back and watch the scandal explode, because the captain's bravery in coming forward may encourage others to come out of the shadows.
     
  7. CSM
    Offline

    CSM Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,907
    Thanks Received:
    708
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Northeast US
    Ratings:
    +708
    I tend to agree that using Reserves and Guard troops as prison guards/MPs without at least some mentoring by active duty supervisors is just asking for trouble. It is very disturbing that any leader in the chain of command, regardless of level in that chain, would turn a blind eye or even condone or abet prisoner abuse.
     
  8. NATO AIR
    Offline

    NATO AIR Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    4,275
    Thanks Received:
    282
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    USS Abraham Lincoln
    Ratings:
    +282
    Yes, i mean, we have people from around the ship who go TDY (TAD in the navy :D ) to ship's security, and 9 out of 10 are not nearly as skilled or reliable as the master-at-arms. Now, I imagine them in a situation where they're in Iraq or Afghanistan, filling a Master-At-Arms billet or an MP billet, and I can see the problem and the potential for disaster right there. We just need more MP's and intel folks. Right?
     
  9. CSM
    Offline

    CSM Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,907
    Thanks Received:
    708
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Northeast US
    Ratings:
    +708
    Yep. I suspect that there is more than a little politics involved as well. By that I mean that some officers get where they are because of political connections rather than skill and competency...I know this for a fact. Such officers are generally a detriment to begin with. Please note that not all officers fall in the latter category. Also, it is far more prevalent in the Reserves and National Guard, though the active component is not free of political influence. This is particularly true for the field grade ranks beyond LtCol and above.
     
  10. CSM
    Offline

    CSM Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,907
    Thanks Received:
    708
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Northeast US
    Ratings:
    +708
    Absolutely. Regardless, we need more professionalism in our forces, particularly for MPs and Intel fields.
     

Share This Page