A Liberal is a Libertarian addled with guilt and self loathing

[Luissa]

Mani a libertarian's aim is to repeal many laws and regulations already on the books, while most liberals' aim is to continue ADDING them.

Today's liberal is nothing even close to a libertarian except perhaps that they see eye to eye on certain types of social issues.

But even THERE, there's a difference in how to go about handling them.

Libertarians would typically prefer to leave social and moral issues to the states to decide, while liberals seem to want the federal government to legislate it.

If you're referring to a classical liberal, then you pretty close to correct. Classical liberals are libertarians by virtue of philosophical and ideological positions. But then, today's liberal is nothing even CLOSE to a classical liberal, now is he/she?

I am liberal and I am for states having the right to decide if they want such things as making certain drugs legal, I am also not against guns, but I do think once the supreme court ruled on abortions it became a federal issue.
The funniest part about the whole thing is, is right wingers talk about how they want the government out of their lives. Of course that only means their lives, they sure as hell want to be involved in other people's lives when it comes to abortions, gay marriage, and drugs.

Well just like there are some issues that liberals and libertarians agree on, there are some that traditional conservatives and libertarians agree on.

Trust me, I distance myself from traditional conservatives when it comes to their hypocrisy on government being out of our lives.

Legislating drug use and marriage actually seems like something I would expect out of today's liberal, considering they're the ones who most want government to run our everyday lives.

There's no set in stone definition for any ideology. Everyone takes a little from everywhere, whether they want to admit it or not.

My brother and I argue quite often about politics, for he loves Hannity and I love to push his bottons on that issue. Anyways he told me I am an old school liberal the other day, whatever that means.

 

[Oddball]

I am confused here, are you saying there are no liberals that want the war on drugs stopped?

Outside of a couple of stray guys like Dennis Kucinich, no.

The vast majority of them are at least for the status quo, if not for expanding the failed policy as a cynical way to show that they can be "tough on crime" too.

You have two of the bluest state trying to legalize marijuana right now, which would stop part of the war on drugs. Obama's drug czar who is from Seattle, decriminalized marijuana in Seattle because he thought it was all a waste of money. I will try to find an article on the state house here and liberals sponsoring the two bills right now. There might not be any liberals right now at a national level who are for stopping the war on drugs but there are sure plenty at the state levels.
And PS NIxon started the war on drugs, and Reagan expanded on it.

Decrim of marijuana in dribs and drabs is not the same as coming out and proposing the abandonment of the federal policy and dismantling of the DEA.

When someone of any stature higher than Dennis Kucinich comes out in favor of that, you come get me.

 

[Paulie]

I am liberal and I am for states having the right to decide if they want such things as making certain drugs legal, I am also not against guns, but I do think once the supreme court ruled on abortions it became a federal issue.
The funniest part about the whole thing is, is right wingers talk about how they want the government out of their lives. Of course that only means their lives, they sure as hell want to be involved in other people's lives when it comes to abortions, gay marriage, and drugs.

Well just like there are some issues that liberals and libertarians agree on, there are some that traditional conservatives and libertarians agree on.

Trust me, I distance myself from traditional conservatives when it comes to their hypocrisy on government being out of our lives.

Legislating drug use and marriage actually seems like something I would expect out of today's liberal, considering they're the ones who most want government to run our everyday lives.

There's no set in stone definition for any ideology. Everyone takes a little from everywhere, whether they want to admit it or not.

My brother and I argue quite often about politics, for he loves Hannity and I love to push his bottons on that issue. Anyways he told me I am an old school liberal the other day, whatever that means.

He probably means classical, which is just a LABEL away from being a libertarian.

I still don't think you're quite a classical liberal, though. You're a centrist who leans more so to the left than the right.

 

[Paulie]

Outside of a couple of stray guys like Dennis Kucinich, no.

The vast majority of them are at least for the status quo, if not for expanding the failed policy as a cynical way to show that they can be "tough on crime" too.

You have two of the bluest state trying to legalize marijuana right now, which would stop part of the war on drugs. Obama's drug czar who is from Seattle, decriminalized marijuana in Seattle because he thought it was all a waste of money. I will try to find an article on the state house here and liberals sponsoring the two bills right now. There might not be any liberals right now at a national level who are for stopping the war on drugs but there are sure plenty at the state levels.
And PS NIxon started the war on drugs, and Reagan expanded on it.

Decrim of marijuana in dribs and drabs is not the same as coming out and proposing the abandonment of the federal policy and dismantling of the DEA.

When someone of any stature higher than Dennis Kucinich comes out in favor of that, you come get me.

Yeah decrim is a joke if you ask me. "we're still going to tax your ass for being caught with it, but you just don't have to go to jail now".

That flies in the face of some of the most important reasons for legalizing it to begin with.

 

[Luissa]

Outside of a couple of stray guys like Dennis Kucinich, no.

The vast majority of them are at least for the status quo, if not for expanding the failed policy as a cynical way to show that they can be "tough on crime" too.

You have two of the bluest state trying to legalize marijuana right now, which would stop part of the war on drugs. Obama's drug czar who is from Seattle, decriminalized marijuana in Seattle because he thought it was all a waste of money. I will try to find an article on the state house here and liberals sponsoring the two bills right now. There might not be any liberals right now at a national level who are for stopping the war on drugs but there are sure plenty at the state levels.
And PS NIxon started the war on drugs, and Reagan expanded on it.

Decrim of marijuana in dribs and drabs is not the same as coming out and proposing the abandonment of the federal policy and dismantling of the DEA.

When someone of any stature higher than Dennis Kucinich comes out in favor of that, you come get me.

I haven't seen any Republicans come out against it, and in Washington State they don't just want to decriminalize it, they want to legalize it for people over 21 and sell it in the liquor stores. We also will probably be voting on it here soon, and I will bet you 100 bucks that the Westside of the the state which is very liberal will vote for legalization, and I the eastside of the state which is more conservative and right leaning will vote no on the issue.
Republicans started the War on Drugs, and in my opinion I know a hell of a lot more liberals who are for stopping the War on Drugs, then I do conservatives.

 

[Oddball]

I haven't seen any Republicans come out against it, and in Washington State they don't just want to decriminalize it, they want to legalize it for people over 21 and sell it in the liquor stores. We also will probably be voting on it here soon, and I will bet you 100 bucks that the Westside of the the state which is very liberal will vote for legalization, and I the eastside of the state which is more conservative and right leaning will vote no on the issue.
Republicans started the War on Drugs, and in my opinion I know a hell of a lot more liberals who are for stopping the War on Drugs, then I do conservatives.

We're not talking about republicans here......Their up to their asses in the drug war failure as well.

 

[Luissa]

Well just like there are some issues that liberals and libertarians agree on, there are some that traditional conservatives and libertarians agree on.

Trust me, I distance myself from traditional conservatives when it comes to their hypocrisy on government being out of our lives.

Legislating drug use and marriage actually seems like something I would expect out of today's liberal, considering they're the ones who most want government to run our everyday lives.

There's no set in stone definition for any ideology. Everyone takes a little from everywhere, whether they want to admit it or not.

My brother and I argue quite often about politics, for he loves Hannity and I love to push his bottons on that issue. Anyways he told me I am an old school liberal the other day, whatever that means.

He probably means classical, which is just a LABEL away from being a libertarian.

I still don't think you're quite a classical liberal, though. You're a centrist who leans more so to the left than the right.

I know what he meant.
And I try to tell him what you said, but my Republican brothers just have it in their head I am some extreme liberal. I should have you send them an email.

Now my brother's are cons but not when it comes to social issues, my one brother is a self employed sub contractor, and the other one owns a construction company, and has hit the certain tax bracket.

 

[Luissa]

I haven't seen any Republicans come out against it, and in Washington State they don't just want to decriminalize it, they want to legalize it for people over 21 and sell it in the liquor stores. We also will probably be voting on it here soon, and I will bet you 100 bucks that the Westside of the the state which is very liberal will vote for legalization, and I the eastside of the state which is more conservative and right leaning will vote no on the issue.
Republicans started the War on Drugs, and in my opinion I know a hell of a lot more liberals who are for stopping the War on Drugs, then I do conservatives.

We're not talking about republicans here......Their up to their asses in the drug war failure as well.

I was wondering.

And I know there isn't a lot of liberals who will speak out at a national level, but a lot of liberals my age especially in my state want the War on Drugs to stop. We for one like to watch movies like " The Union", and " American Drug War: The last White Hope".

 

[Oddball]

Republicans started the War on Drugs, and in my opinion I know a hell of a lot more liberals who are for stopping the War on Drugs, then I do conservatives.

BZZZZZZT!!!!...Wrong-o!!

The Marijuana Tax Act passed in 1937.

Marihuana Tax Act of 1937 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Luissa]

Republicans started the War on Drugs, and in my opinion I know a hell of a lot more liberals who are for stopping the War on Drugs, then I do conservatives.

BZZZZZZT!!!!...Wrong-o!!

The Marijuana Tax Act passed in 1937.

Marihuana Tax Act of 1937 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That didn't start the War of Drugs as we know it.

 

[Oddball]

Oh yeah, it did....Everything devolved from that point on.

 

[Luissa]

Republicans started the War on Drugs, and in my opinion I know a hell of a lot more liberals who are for stopping the War on Drugs, then I do conservatives.

BZZZZZZT!!!!...Wrong-o!!

The Marijuana Tax Act passed in 1937.

Marihuana Tax Act of 1937 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You shouldn't have been so trigger happy!

The term was first used by President Richard Nixon in 1969,[1] and its use of war as metaphor is similar to the War on Poverty announced by President Lyndon B. Johnson in 1964. On May 13, 2009, Gil Kerlikowske, the current Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, signaled that the Obama administration would not use the term "War on Drugs," as he claims it is counter-productive and is contrary to the policy favoring treatment over incarceration in trying to reduce recreational drug use.[2]

Contents [hide]
War on Drugs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And here is my tin foil hat theory, which I borrowed from The Union. Nixon hated hippies, and what did hippies do a lot of? He couldn't arrest them for protesting, but he could arrest them for drugs.

 

[Luissa]

Oh yeah, it did....Everything devolved from that point on.

I was not talking about when the drugs became illegal, I am talking about the " War on drugs" started, when they actually started enforcing the laws and targeting drug trafficing.

 

[Political Junky]

If you take away the support of social programs, Liberals are very close to Libertarians in terms of political beliefs. That's the only major difference between the two that I've seen.

They agree on Abortion, Drugs, Civil Liberties, etc.

Dog we had this discussion via PM a while ago, or rather I did, you never responded back to me. I told you what mine, and many other libertarians' positions were and I didn't hear back from you.

Either you agree with those positions or not. If not, you're probably just a regular modern day liberal.

You know what I have a problem with, is some people thinking that if you are liberal it means you think this way or that way. I know don't like to think so, but most of us have a mind of are own.

It's the cons who all follow in lockstep.

 

[xsited1]

So says a friend of mine.


What say you?

Obviously false. Most liberals I know are 'addled with guilt and self loathing'. What's up with that?

 

[manifold]

Fuck the party that commandeered and obfuscated the ideology.

To Allign Libertarian ideology with the concept of "states" rights is to betray a fundamental ignorance of the ideology itself. A true Libertarian ideologue is pro-choice. For the same reasons he is pro keeping 100% of his productive earnings, yadda yadda.

Try to at least be consistent with the ideologies you espouse. mmkay?

Libertarians are not 100% anti-tax, Mani. At least the kind with the small l, anyway. I'm all for the taxation that is authorized in the constitution, I'm simply for lowering spending to a point where most of what is taken TODAY, wouldn't be necessary to take.

That's pretty much in line with a traditional conservative of today.

The states rights issue is something you'll be very hard pressed to try and lump just one ideology into. Not all libertarians are the same. To try and pigeon hole libertarians is no different than trying to pigeon hole liberals or conservatives. It's counter-productive to the discussion to do so.

My point is that Libertarianism and states rights are separate issues. States rights is a contitutional issue, not strictly speaking an ideological matter. At the end of the day, just ask yourself what you'd support in your state, ideologically speaking. And a libertarian would be pro-choice. Period.

 

[Oddball]

Oh yeah, it did....Everything devolved from that point on.

I was not talking about when the drugs became illegal, I am talking about the " War on drugs" started, when they actually started enforcing the laws and targeting drug trafficing.

That would be with the Marijuana Tax Stamp act.

The policy didn't come into being in one fell swoop.

 

[Paulie]

Fuck the party that commandeered and obfuscated the ideology.

To Allign Libertarian ideology with the concept of "states" rights is to betray a fundamental ignorance of the ideology itself. A true Libertarian ideologue is pro-choice. For the same reasons he is pro keeping 100% of his productive earnings, yadda yadda.

Try to at least be consistent with the ideologies you espouse. mmkay?

Libertarians are not 100% anti-tax, Mani. At least the kind with the small l, anyway. I'm all for the taxation that is authorized in the constitution, I'm simply for lowering spending to a point where most of what is taken TODAY, wouldn't be necessary to take.

That's pretty much in line with a traditional conservative of today.

The states rights issue is something you'll be very hard pressed to try and lump just one ideology into. Not all libertarians are the same. To try and pigeon hole libertarians is no different than trying to pigeon hole liberals or conservatives. It's counter-productive to the discussion to do so.

My point is that Libertarianism and states rights are separate issues. States rights is a contitutional issue, not strictly speaking an ideological matter. At the end of the day, just ask yourself what you'd support in your state, ideologically speaking. And a libertarian would be pro-choice. Period.

What a state government decides is MUCH different from what the federal government decides. If a state happens to take a much more authoritarian approach on something, so be it. There are 49 others. And it's much easier to fight locally or at least statewide, than to fight the fed, in the event that the populous wants to see something changed.

And no, a libertarian does not have to be 100% pro-choice. You are making the classic mistake of confusing a libertarian with an all-out anarchist. MANY libertarians support specific laws and regulations, typically those authorized by the constitution.

And if you're only referring to pro-choice as far as the issue of abortion, I might be a little more inclined to agree. Although many libertarians still view abortion as a form of killing, and killing is a crime that almost everyone agrees should be legislated.

You're being too absolute in your viewpoints on ideologies.

 

[manifold]

A libertarian opposes any law that is purely grounded in morality. That is, you can do what you want if it doesn't affect me. That includes abortion, whether you can come to grips with it or not Paulie.

True story.

 

[Anguille]

What do you call a fraudulent Libertarian?

A Fibbertarian, of course. Or maybe a Fraubertarian? A Libaudulent?