A leader with courage and principles

[Kalam]

BBC News - Merkel honours Danish Muhammad cartoonist Westergaard

If only we had an American president in the last 20 years who understood this.

If you question something that happened to Jews seventy years ago, you're put in jail. If you're a filthy ape who slanders Rasul Allah (SAWS), you're presented with a "press freedom award." How remarkably Western!

What do you mean? I am quite sure you can ask any questions you want, even in Iran. Just be careful not to ask them in the hearing of any of the rats that work for the Iranian government. Are you another idiot that wants to rewrite history? Please let me know if you are, so I can stop treating you with the respect I do.

I did not comment on whether or not I believe the Holocaust took place. I do, though I recognize that casualty figures may have been inflated somewhat as they often are when mass murder occurs. None of that matters in this discussion, of course.

I'm not sure why you brought up Iran. I was referring very clearly to Germany's criminalization of Holocaust denial and pointing out how ridiculously hypocritical they are.

Germany Moves to Silence Holocaust Deniers Across Europe | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 19.01.2007

 

[California Girl]

LOL now that's funny!!

In Germany if you publiclly deny the Holocaust happened or publish words of doubt about the official Holocaust story.

You will be convicted as a criminal and sent to prison as several people already have been.

So much for Free Speech in Germany

I don't agree with that myself, but I do think they have a reason to remember that part of their history. I think that makes it justified, for them.

The German people are forced by law to accept the "Official" story concerning the so called Holocaust.

I wonder how Americans would react if we were forced under threat of prison to accept 100% the Warren Report about the Kennedy assassination ?

Sunni, for the second time in 24 hours, I have to take issue with your inability to find legitimate analogies. In order to be taken seriously, you really need to get your game. Your analogy is, again, borderline pathetic.

The 'so called' Holocaust is a historical fact - there is nothing 'so called' about it. Otherwise, where the hell are the 6 million Jews that were alive at the beginning of WWII and have never been seen since. What do you think happened? The fucking Rapture?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I don't agree with that myself, but I do think they have a reason to remember that part of their history. I think that makes it justified, for them.

So it makes sense to deny freedom of speech because of crimes committed in the past by a country?

Not to me, but I am not a German. If you have a problem with their laws, take it up with them.

I'm not a German either, so it's not up to me to take issue with their laws. I was more taking issue with your justifying their denying the freedom of speech just because of crimes committed by their government generations ago.

I was also pointing out hypocrisy. It's hypocritical for a nation to hand out an award for freedom of speech to somebody who offended a religion, when they will throw people in jail for saying something that offends a different religion.

 

[Dr Grump]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has defended Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, whose cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad caused anger in 2006. A depiction of Muhammad's turban as a fused bomb sparked global outrage when it was published in Denmark.
Presenting him with a press freedom award, Mrs Merkel said Mr Westergaard was entitled to draw his caricatures.
"Europe is a place where a cartoonist is allowed to draw something like this," she said.

"We are talking here about the freedom of opinion and the freedom of the press," Ms Merkel said at the ceremony in the German city of Potsdam.

BBC News - Merkel honours Danish Muhammad cartoonist Westergaard

If only we had an American president in the last 20 years who understood this.

Yeah and if he did that, you'd give him shit if Islamofascists started blowing up shit due to him doing so...

 

[Sunni Man]

I don't agree with that myself, but I do think they have a reason to remember that part of their history. I think that makes it justified, for them.

The German people are forced by law to accept the "Official" story concerning the so called Holocaust.

I wonder how Americans would react if we were forced under threat of prison to accept 100% the Warren Report about the Kennedy assassination ?

Sunni, for the second time in 24 hours, I have to take issue with your inability to find legitimate analogies. In order to be taken seriously, you really need to get your game. Your analogy is, again, borderline pathetic.

The 'so called' Holocaust is a historical fact - there is nothing 'so called' about it. Otherwise, where the hell are the 6 million Jews that were alive at the beginning of WWII and have never been seen since. What do you think happened? The fucking Rapture?

Auschwitz use to have a plaque that read 4 million Jews died here.

A few years ago the figures were revised and the government replaced it with one that now reads 1.5 million died here.

So instantly 2.5 so called jewish victims disappeared.

Yet everyone is still told the official number is 6 million.


Just another example of the false myth known as the Holohoax.

 

[Charles_Main]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has defended Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, whose cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad caused anger in 2006. A depiction of Muhammad's turban as a fused bomb sparked global outrage when it was published in Denmark.
Presenting him with a press freedom award, Mrs Merkel said Mr Westergaard was entitled to draw his caricatures.
"Europe is a place where a cartoonist is allowed to draw something like this," she said.

"We are talking here about the freedom of opinion and the freedom of the press," Ms Merkel said at the ceremony in the German city of Potsdam.

BBC News - Merkel honours Danish Muhammad cartoonist Westergaard

If only we had an American president in the last 20 years who understood this.

LOL now that's funny!!

In Germany if you publiclly deny the Holocaust happened or publish words of doubt about the official Holocaust story.

You will be convicted as a criminal and sent to prison as several people already have been.

So much for Free Speech in Germany

Only because Germany has SPECIFIC laws against such speech. Not sure why, might be because they were responsible for the Holocaust.

lol

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If you question something that happened to Jews seventy years ago, you're put in jail. If you're a filthy ape who slanders Rasul Allah (SAWS), you're presented with a "press freedom award." How remarkably Western!

What do you mean? I am quite sure you can ask any questions you want, even in Iran. Just be careful not to ask them in the hearing of any of the rats that work for the Iranian government. Are you another idiot that wants to rewrite history? Please let me know if you are, so I can stop treating you with the respect I do.

I did not comment on whether or not I believe the Holocaust took place. I do, though I recognize that casualty figures may have been inflated somewhat as they often are when mass murder occurs. None of that matters in this discussion, of course.

I'm not sure why you brought up Iran. I was referring very clearly to Germany's criminalization of Holocaust denial and pointing out how ridiculously hypocritical they are.

Germany Moves to Silence Holocaust Deniers Across Europe | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 19.01.2007

I mentioned Iran because you made a point that it was illegal to ask about what happened to Jews during the Holocaust. Since the official Iranian position is that the Holocaust is Zionist propaganda, I thought it relevant to my point that you can still ask about the Holocaust there.

As far as I know, it is not illegal to challenge how many people were killed in the Holocaust, as long as you do not deny if occurred. I would not be surprised if the numbers are off, maybe by as much as 3 figures. I don't know why you would want to quibble about a few thousand when millions were killed though.

 

[Trajan]

To be fair, I haven't read this whole interview yet just saw some articles with quotes.

President Obama to Pastor Jones: 'Stunt' Endangers Troops ? Full Transcript of Exclusive Interview - George Stephanopoulos' Bottom Line


I'd like if he remembered that it's not just the US press corp who are listening...It would be nice to see him admonish against the possible violent outburst, not just admonish the minister, and stress our history in the context of freedom of religion and expression.

well he do spend a lot of time making it known to Islamic councils, governments etc. that he wanted to hit the reset button....maybe he could use some of that ...uhm, 'good will' hes built up?

 

[Kalam]

I mentioned Iran because you made a point that it was illegal to ask about what happened to Jews during the Holocaust. Since the official Iranian position is that the Holocaust is Zionist propaganda, I thought it relevant to my point that you can still ask about the Holocaust there.

As far as I know, it is not illegal to challenge how many people were killed in the Holocaust, as long as you do not deny if occurred.

See:

§ 130 Public Incitement (1985, Revised 1992, 2002, 2005)

(1) Whoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace:

1. incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or
2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population,

shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.

(...)

(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or belittles an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the type indicated in Section 6 subsection (1) of the Code of Crimes against International Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.

(4) Whoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner that assaults the human dignity of the victims by approving of, denying or rendering harmless the violent and arbitrary National Socialist rule shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.​

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So it makes sense to deny freedom of speech because of crimes committed in the past by a country?

Not to me, but I am not a German. If you have a problem with their laws, take it up with them.

I'm not a German either, so it's not up to me to take issue with their laws. I was more taking issue with your justifying their denying the freedom of speech just because of crimes committed by their government generations ago.

I was also pointing out hypocrisy. It's hypocritical for a nation to hand out an award for freedom of speech to somebody who offended a religion, when they will throw people in jail for saying something that offends a different religion.

How is it hypocrisy?

The law we are discussing is specifically aimed at people who want to deny a particular part of Germany's history. I do not agree with the law, and I have not defended it, I just admit I can see the justification for it. They want all of their citizens to remember history, and guard against it happening again. Within the limits of their Constitution and law, they fully support free speech.

Funny thing, that is exactly what we do here. We recognize limits on free speech, and many people want to impose more. I do not agree with them either, but that does not automatically make them wrong.

How is it hypocrisy to award someone for speaking up when the rest of the world hides away in fear. The hypocrites in this case are the people who argue that this type of speech is offensive and inflammatory, and we should ban it, when they speak the same way about other religions.

People really should think about what words really mean so that they are not so pat to misuse them.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has defended Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, whose cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad caused anger in 2006. A depiction of Muhammad's turban as a fused bomb sparked global outrage when it was published in Denmark.
Presenting him with a press freedom award, Mrs Merkel said Mr Westergaard was entitled to draw his caricatures.
"Europe is a place where a cartoonist is allowed to draw something like this," she said.

"We are talking here about the freedom of opinion and the freedom of the press," Ms Merkel said at the ceremony in the German city of Potsdam.

BBC News - Merkel honours Danish Muhammad cartoonist Westergaard

If only we had an American president in the last 20 years who understood this.

Yeah and if he did that, you'd give him shit if Islamofascists started blowing up shit due to him doing so...

I think you have me confuse with someone else. If you look around on this board you will see that I have repeatedly stated that it is not the fault of the people who say things that terrorists exist, it is the fault of the people who remain silent.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

BBC News - Merkel honours Danish Muhammad cartoonist Westergaard

If only we had an American president in the last 20 years who understood this.

LOL now that's funny!!

In Germany if you publiclly deny the Holocaust happened or publish words of doubt about the official Holocaust story.

You will be convicted as a criminal and sent to prison as several people already have been.

So much for Free Speech in Germany

Only because Germany has SPECIFIC laws against such speech. Not sure why, might be because they were responsible for the Holocaust.

lol

I am not sure why either, but I would be willing to bet that has something to do with it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I mentioned Iran because you made a point that it was illegal to ask about what happened to Jews during the Holocaust. Since the official Iranian position is that the Holocaust is Zionist propaganda, I thought it relevant to my point that you can still ask about the Holocaust there.

As far as I know, it is not illegal to challenge how many people were killed in the Holocaust, as long as you do not deny if occurred.

See:

§ 130 Public Incitement (1985, Revised 1992, 2002, 2005)

(1) Whoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace:

1. incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or
2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population,

shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.

(...)

(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or belittles an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the type indicated in Section 6 subsection (1) of the Code of Crimes against International Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.

(4) Whoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner that assaults the human dignity of the victims by approving of, denying or rendering harmless the violent and arbitrary National Socialist rule shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.​

Are you citing this to show me I am right? Or do you think it proves me wrong?

 

[Kalam]

I mentioned Iran because you made a point that it was illegal to ask about what happened to Jews during the Holocaust. Since the official Iranian position is that the Holocaust is Zionist propaganda, I thought it relevant to my point that you can still ask about the Holocaust there.

As far as I know, it is not illegal to challenge how many people were killed in the Holocaust, as long as you do not deny if occurred.

See:

§ 130 Public Incitement (1985, Revised 1992, 2002, 2005)

(1) Whoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace:

1. incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or
2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population,

shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.

(...)

(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or belittles an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the type indicated in Section 6 subsection (1) of the Code of Crimes against International Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.

(4) Whoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner that assaults the human dignity of the victims by approving of, denying or rendering harmless the violent and arbitrary National Socialist rule shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.​

Are you citing this to show me I am right? Or do you think it proves me wrong?

Read what you said and try reading the text of the law again.

 

[Tom Clancy]

Don't worry. We will have a President who will understand things like this when Sarah Palin takes the Oath in 2012. She is a patriotic fine American who is a Natural Born Citizen that meets Article 2 Section 1 Clause 5 of the Constitution unlike Obama who does not meet the qualifications of it.

 

[Bfgrn]

LOL now that's funny!!

In Germany if you publiclly deny the Holocaust happened or publish words of doubt about the official Holocaust story.

You will be convicted as a criminal and sent to prison as several people already have been.

So much for Free Speech in Germany

I don't agree with that myself, but I do think they have a reason to remember that part of their history. I think that makes it justified, for them.

The German people are forced by law to accept the "Official" story concerning the so called Holocaust.

I wonder how Americans would react if we were forced under threat of prison to accept 100% the Warren Report about the Kennedy assassination ?

We WERE 'forced to accept 100% the Warren Report about the Kennedy assassination' but no one told the American people.

11-25-63 Memo from Nicholas Katzenbach, Deputy Attorney General to William Moyers, Special Assistant to President Johnson (105-82555-18th NR 50)

 

[blu]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has defended Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, whose cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad caused anger in 2006. A depiction of Muhammad's turban as a fused bomb sparked global outrage when it was published in Denmark.
Presenting him with a press freedom award, Mrs Merkel said Mr Westergaard was entitled to draw his caricatures.
"Europe is a place where a cartoonist is allowed to draw something like this," she said.

"We are talking here about the freedom of opinion and the freedom of the press," Ms Merkel said at the ceremony in the German city of Potsdam.

BBC News - Merkel honours Danish Muhammad cartoonist Westergaard

If only we had an American president in the last 20 years who understood this.

Don't worry. We will have a President who will understand things like this when Sarah Palin takes the Oath in 2012. She is a patriotic fine American who is a Natural Born Citizen that meets Article 2 Section 1 Clause 5 of the Constitution unlike Obama who does not meet the qualifications of it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

See:

Are you citing this to show me I am right? Or do you think it proves me wrong?

Read what you said and try reading the text of the law again.

Will that help me read your mind? My guess is that it will not, so I will simply rephrase the question, do you think this proves me right, or wrong?

 

[Kalam]

Are you citing this to show me I am right? Or do you think it proves me wrong?

Read what you said and try reading the text of the law again.

Will that help me read your mind? My guess is that it will not, so I will simply rephrase the question, do you think this proves me right, or wrong?

• You: "As far as I know, it is not illegal to challenge how many people were killed in the Holocaust, as long as you do not deny if occurred."
  
• The law: "Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or belittles an act committed under the rule of National Socialism"

Notice the discrepancy. Even if you were right, a leader who shakes hands with Muslim-hating chimpanzees and jails people for denying that the Holocaust occurred cannot be considered "principled" and "courageous."