"A free thinker is Satan's slave"

[Si modo]

I don't care what you say you consider yourself. A freethinker is an atheist.

Atheists do not have a monopoly on free thinking.

LOL that's certainly true, but I have to say koshergrl's statement is making my point for me.

An atheist, of course, is someone who does not believe in God or gods. A free thinker is someone whose thinking isn't bound by dogma. Obviously those are not identical concepts.

For everyone's information, I'm a Pagan. I have opinions about the nature of deity and divinity that are unconventional and would take too long to go into on this thread if I could even explain them, but I certainly believe that the Gods exist. So no, I am not an atheist.

Not that it really matters. The point here would be the same even if I were.

Yup. Anyone who surrenders critical thought for ANY dogma (and I emphasize the word, dogma), religious or otherwise, is no longer a free thinker. Faith and free thinking can certainly coexist because they involve separate types of thought and their processes.

Faith is a set of beliefs and beliefs are ideas an individual accepts as true without any proof - more an emotional and right brain process, IMO. Free thought, in my book, implies the application of critical thought which is more a left brain process.

That's the way I see it.

 

[nitroz]

2+2=4

omg! I'm going to hell!

 

[koshergrl]

I don't care what you say you consider yourself. A freethinker is an atheist.

Atheists do not have a monopoly on free thinking.

Si Modo, look up the term. The TERM "free thinker" means atheist..someone who challenges religion.

And of course they don't have a monopoly on the ACT of free thinking, they are a mess. But they hide behind that term.

My objection was the fact that Dragon pretended that the term "free thinker" when used by the CHURCH meant something else.

 

[Si modo]

I don't care what you say you consider yourself. A freethinker is an atheist.

Atheists do not have a monopoly on free thinking.

Si Modo, look up the term. The TERM "free thinker" means atheist..someone who challenges religion.

And of course they don't have a monopoly on the ACT of free thinking, they are a mess. But they hide behind that term.

My objection was the fact that Dragon pretended that the term "free thinker" when used by the CHURCH meant something else.

Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint that holds opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or other dogmas.[1][2][3] The cognitive application of freethought is known as "freethinking," and practitioners of freethought are known as "freethinkers."[4][5]

Oh, the HORROR!

(Please tell me that you are not serious.....)

 

[koshergrl]

2+2=4

omg! I'm going to hell!

Probably, but that is not evidence that you are a free thinker.

FREE THINKER does not mean logical, nitwit. Though that's what the atheists WANT you to believe.

 

[koshergrl]

Atheists do not have a monopoly on free thinking.

Si Modo, look up the term. The TERM "free thinker" means atheist..someone who challenges religion.

And of course they don't have a monopoly on the ACT of free thinking, they are a mess. But they hide behind that term.

My objection was the fact that Dragon pretended that the term "free thinker" when used by the CHURCH meant something else.

Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint that holds opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or other dogmas.[1][2][3] The cognitive application of freethought is known as "freethinking," and practitioners of freethought are known as "freethinkers."[4][5]

Oh, the HORROR!

(Please tell me that you are not serious.....)

Si, the way the church used it and the way it has been used for the most part is as a description of ATHEISTS...

Here is a cut and paste of the first three hits on a search of "freethinker definition"...

freethinker (n) - Bing Dictionary


free·think·er [ free thíngkər ]

1. somebody who does not accept dogma: an independent thinker who refuses to accept established views or teachings, especially on religion

Synonyms: individualist, free spirit, nonbeliever, skeptic, nonconformist, rationalist


Bing Dictionary

• Freethinker - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster ...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Definition of FREETHINKER: one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially: one who doubts or denies religious dogma
  www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freethinker
  
• Freethinker | Define Freethinker at Dictionary.com
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  noun a person who forms opinions on the basis of reason , independent of authority or tradition, especially a person whose religious opinions differ from established
  

My ONLY point is that the term, contrary to what militant atheists like Dragon and a few others would have us believe, has a specific meaning particular to ATHEISTS.

So holding up the church for ridicule on the basis that they are attacking LOGICAL thinkers is disengenuous...they are not attacking logical thinkers, they are making a point about atheists, and about the term that atheists use to describe themselves when they want to lend themselves credibility...."freethinkers".

I know people use it incorrectly and to mean something else. But in THIS instance, it has a specific meaning. And that meaning is not "any logical thinker".

 

[Big Fitz]

That's a billboard making the rounds, allegedly put up by various churches. I can't verify that it isn't a hoax and it may be. But whether or not any churches have actually displayed that billboard, that IS the thinking of many conservative Christians. I've seen it expressed by certain posters here.

In fact, I think we can take it a bit further: traditional Christianity and freedom in general are enemies. Freedom is a value that's antithetical to traditional Christianity. Not to the teachings of Jesus, mind -- but to traditional Christian teaching.

To a traditional Christian, there is a very, very narrow range of thought, feeling, and action that are permissible. To think freely is to be a heretic or an unbeliever. To feel freely is to lust, to desire, almost certainly to be an adulterer or fornicator in one's imagination, and in some cases to be a homosexual; it's to be angry at times, to long for what traditional morality says should not be yours, to envy and resent.

Freedom means nothing if it is not freedom to sin. Traditional Christianity is opposed to sin. Therefore, traditional Christianity is opposed to freedom.

Replace the word "women" with "free thinker".

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wse_hgca220&feature=related]BEST Movie Line ever in film history - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Si modo]

Si Modo, look up the term. The TERM "free thinker" means atheist..someone who challenges religion.

And of course they don't have a monopoly on the ACT of free thinking, they are a mess. But they hide behind that term.

My objection was the fact that Dragon pretended that the term "free thinker" when used by the CHURCH meant something else.

Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint that holds opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or other dogmas.[1][2][3] The cognitive application of freethought is known as "freethinking," and practitioners of freethought are known as "freethinkers."[4][5]

Oh, the HORROR!

(Please tell me that you are not serious.....)

Si, the way the church used it and the way it has been used for the most part is as a description of ATHEISTS...

Here is a cut and paste of the first three hits on a search of "freethinker definition"...

freethinker (n) - Bing Dictionary

free·think·er [ free thíngkər ]

1. somebody who does not accept dogma: an independent thinker who refuses to accept established views or teachings, especially on religion

Synonyms: individualist, free spirit, nonbeliever, skeptic, nonconformist, rationalist


Bing Dictionary

• Freethinker - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster ...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Definition of FREETHINKER: one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially: one who doubts or denies religious dogma
  www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/freethinker
  
• Freethinker | Define Freethinker at Dictionary.com
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  noun a person who forms opinions on the basis of reason , independent of authority or tradition, especially a person whose religious opinions differ from established
  

My ONLY point is that the term, contrary to what militant atheists like Dragon and a few others would have us believe, has a specific meaning particular to ATHEISTS.

So holding up the church for ridicule on the basis that they are attacking LOGICAL thinkers is disengenuous...they are not attacking logical thinkers, they are making a point about atheists, and about the term that atheists use to describe themselves when they want to lend themselves credibility...."freethinkers".

I know people use it incorrectly and to mean something else (and mostly incorrectly). But in THIS instance, it has a specific meaning. And that meaning is not "any logical thinker".

Not seeing freethinkers being equivalent to atheists or the reverse.

Anyway, churches don't define words for me. Regardless, although there is religious dogma, all dogma is not religious.

You know that.

And, I've known Dragon for years, now. He is not an atheist. You keep saying that, but he is not.

I don't buy hook, line, and sinker ANY dogma of any kind.

 

[Big Fitz]

2+2=4

omg! I'm going to hell!

now now... you just have to think more freely and imagine a world where there are other answers for 2+2.

I'm all for keeping an open mind, but don't keep it so open your brains fall out.

 

[Dragon]

Koshergrl is missing the point.

First of all, as I said in the OP I can't be sure that billboard isn't a hoax. If I had to guess, I'd say probably it is, and that no church actually posted those words. So the church's WORDS and what they meant by them (if they even said them to begin with) aren't the issue here.

This isn't something that I'm saying a church has said, it's something I'm saying that traditional Christians BELIEVE, whether they say it or not, and whether that billboard is real or not. If it is, then maybe "atheist" is all the church meant by "free thinker."

But be that as it may, traditional Christianity IS opposed to free thinking, and to freedom in general, as those words literally mean -- not just atheism, but any freedom of thought, and any freedom of feeling, and any freedom of action, and freedom generally.

Traditional Christianity is an anti-freedom religion. And THAT is what I mean. What the church meant by the word "freethinker," if any church even said that in the first place, is irrelevant.

 

[Si modo]

Koshergrl is missing the point.

First of all, as I said in the OP I can't be sure that billboard isn't a hoax. If I had to guess, I'd say probably it is, and that no church actually posted those words. So the church's WORDS and what they meant by them (if they even said them to begin with) aren't the issue here.

This isn't something that I'm saying a church has said, it's something I'm saying that traditional Christians BELIEVE, whether they say it or not, and whether that billboard is real or not. If it is, then maybe "atheist" is all the church meant by "free thinker."

But be that as it may, traditional Christianity IS opposed to free thinking, and to freedom in general, as those words literally mean -- not just atheism, but any freedom of thought, and any freedom of feeling, and any freedom of action, and freedom generally.

Traditional Christianity is an anti-freedom religion. And THAT is what I mean. What the church meant by the word "freethinker," if any church even said that in the first place, is irrelevant.

Oh, please. There are plenty of free thinkers of every religion. When any religious person goes fundy, though, they surrender free thought. Absolutely.

If that's what you meant - fundies - I completely agree.

 

[koshergrl]

You can go back to pretending you are ignoring me, Dragon, you stupid piece of shit.

"
In order to avoid any misunderstandings, let me clarify what I mean. In stating that an Evangelical Christian cannot be a freethinker, I am not saying that Evangelical Christians are gullible or that there are no Evangelical scholars worth taking seriously. On the contrary, having attended an Evangelical university, I know first-hand that there are intelligent Evangelicals. (As an aside, I wish that more Evangelicals could return the favor and admit there are honest, intelligent atheists who are familiar with the facts and yet are convinced there is no God.) But a person's intelligence has nothing to do with whether he or she is a freethinker. A person can be very smart and not be a freethinker; likewise, an uneducated person can be a freethinker. Freethought is an epistemology, one that is incompatible with an Evangelical worldview.
That Evangelicals cannot be freethinkers is confirmed by leading Evangelical scholars themselves. For example, in addressing the 'problem' of doubt, theologian William Lane Craig writes:
It is unbiblical to think of doubt as a virtue; to the contrary, doubt is always portrayed in the Scriptures as something detrimental to spiritual life. Doubt never builds up; it always destroys.[3]
Craig then proceeds to argue that Christians should not confuse "thinking about their faith with doubting their faith." Then, in a passage that I think reveals why it is so difficult for Christian websites to link to opposing websites like the Secular Web, Craig states that Christian teachers who encourage their students to doubt their faith are literally acting as "Satan's advocate in the classroom!" Therefore, Craig declares, he "resolved never to present objections to Christianity without also presenting and defending various solutions to those objections."[4] Given Craig's worldview, that is exactly what he should do. But that is also why Evangelicals cannot be freethinkers. Unlike Evangelicals, freethinkers do not consider doubt a 'problem'; on the contrary, freethinkers believe doubt is healthy and should be encouraged."

Is "Freethinker" Synonymous with Nontheist?

 

[Dragon]

Oh, please. There are plenty of free thinkers of every religion. When any religious person goes fundy, though, they surrender free thought. Absolutely.

If that's what you meant - fundies - I completely agree.

That's what I meant. I even pointed out, at least once and I think twice, that there are Christians who aren't like that at all. Which is why I have been at pains to always say "traditional Christianity" here, and not just "Christianity."

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The TERM "free thinker" means atheist..someone who challenges religion.

Wrong again.

As already correctly noted: one can be a ‘free thinker’ and a theist.

You can go back to pretending you are ignoring me, Dragon, you stupid piece of shit.

That’s not very ‘Christian’ of you.

 

[Dragon]

The TERM "free thinker" means atheist..someone who challenges religion.

Wrong again.

As already correctly noted: one can be a ‘free thinker’ and a theist.

You can go back to pretending you are ignoring me, Dragon, you stupid piece of shit.

That’s not very ‘Christian’ of you.

And of course, that kind of behavior is why the little jerk IS on my ignore list (no pretense). But when someone else quotes her, I can still read it. This gives me a chance from time to time to see if someone has changed his/her ways and deserves to be taken off ignore.

In KG's case, clearly that moment has not yet arrived.

 

[Marie888]

That's a billboard making the rounds, allegedly put up by various churches. I can't verify that it isn't a hoax and it may be. But whether or not any churches have actually displayed that billboard, that IS the thinking of many conservative Christians. I've seen it expressed by certain posters here.

In fact, I think we can take it a bit further: traditional Christianity and freedom in general are enemies. Freedom is a value that's antithetical to traditional Christianity. Not to the teachings of Jesus, mind -- but to traditional Christian teaching.

To a traditional Christian, there is a very, very narrow range of thought, feeling, and action that are permissible. To think freely is to be a heretic or an unbeliever. To feel freely is to lust, to desire, almost certainly to be an adulterer or fornicator in one's imagination, and in some cases to be a homosexual; it's to be angry at times, to long for what traditional morality says should not be yours, to envy and resent.

Freedom means nothing if it is not freedom to sin. Traditional Christianity is opposed to sin. Therefore, traditional Christianity is opposed to freedom.

Spoken like a true slave of Satan, perhaps? J/K


Submission to God and/or submitting our thoughts to God and/or to others is still a CHOICE. It's called love and loving God and others is a choice we make all the time. It's a choice to be patient, not seek our own, and bear all things, endure all things. Does it come easy? Hell no! It's extremely difficult in many cases because alot of times we are thinking about "self".

Choosing to love God and loving others doesn't take away from our freedom to do so. It's still a choice we all make every day.

1 Cor 13: 4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

.

 

[Dragon]

Marie, I'm not referring to love, either of God or of others. There is no conflict between that and free, rational thought. The conflict is between free thought and dogma, not love.
Dogma puts the mind in prison, but love gives the heart wings.

 

[nitroz]

2+2=4

omg! I'm going to hell!

Probably, but that is not evidence that you are a free thinker.

FREE THINKER does not mean logical, nitwit. Though that's what the atheists WANT you to believe.

So that means planned parenthood and the other uses for contraception shouldn't be a big deal, right? Because there are other uses for contraception and planned parenthood aids people in planning and promotes safety and abstinence. That's logical.


So Illogical thinking will send you to hell?

If so, Santorum, Romney, and Limbaugh all are going to get whats coming to them.

 

[Marie888]

Marie, I'm not referring to love, either of God or of others. There is no conflict between that and free, rational thought. The conflict is between free thought and dogma, not love.
Dogma puts the mind in prison, but love gives the heart wings.

Love is 100% relevant to your topic because love is a choice.

Love IS our FREEDOM that no man can take from us. Love also rejoices in the truth. We wake in the morning having daily to make choices in everything we do; whether to love, or not to love.

When we love, we yield to God or others, but many times everything in our flesh wants to scream out against it. (Yes, depending on the situations or trials we each have) Over all, still, love is a specific choice and freedom we have.

In other words, I'm presenting to you that God is love. And that love is a choice. If you agree, how can your OP be correct?

.

 

[Dragon]

Love is 100% relevant to your topic because love is basis of choice.

Love IS our FREEDOM that no man can take from us. Love also rejoices in the truth. We wake in the morning having daily to make choices in everything we do; whether to love, or not to love.

When we love, we yield to God or others, but many times everything in our flesh wants to scream out against it. That is a specific choice and freedom we have.

In other words, I'm presenting to you that God is love. And that love is a choice. If you agree, how can your OP be correct?

.

It can be correct because, as I said, love is not dogma. In fact, absolutely nothing you have presented in this post is unique in any way to Christianity, any form of Christianity, let alone the dogmatic form. I can say the exact same thing as a Pagan, except maybe I would say Goddess or the Gods rather than God -- same concept, though.

To surrender one's heart to love is NOT the same as surrendering one's critical thought to a belief system. And love of God does NOT imply adherence to the rigid behavioral, belief, and feeling codes of traditional Christianity.

Simply put, traditional Christians do not own God, as much as they seem to think they do. Nor do they own love.