A Flat Tax: Please help me understand how it is unfair to have a flat tax!

It also finds that 69 percent of Americans who have $500,000 or more in assets earned their wealth through work, business ownership or investments. Only 6 percent gained their wealth primarily through inheritance, and the remaining one-quarter attained their assets through both inheritance and earnings

Future Shock? Not for Earners and Retirees

Now while I've felt for a long time that a flat tax was a "fair" tax , mainly because it was fair across the board for all, there are a few exceptions in my humble opiion. One is, I would submit that all Dollars are not the same when measured in terms of how they are earned. for example, those that tend to have more wealth have more income to invest, and that income earned through those investments is not income earned through work but rather is the same as when you or I go to Las Vegas and bet on Roulette Wheel with a few minor exceptions, in that some are safer than others. So then the question becomes, are the taxe's levied against those "earnings" fair under a "flat" tax scheme, because in general those middle class earners as well as the poor do not have the disposable income to make those investments to earn that income in the first place. One can argue that calling, investing "work" is a bit of a stretch, but I suppose if you work for an investment firm and do it for a living there is always an exception.

There is much arguement on boths sides of this however, here are a few things to consider,

The Russian Federation is a considered a prime case of the success of a flat tax; the real revenues from its Personal Income Tax rose by 25.2% in the first year after the Federation introduced a flat tax, followed by a 24.6% increase in the second year, and a 15.2% increase in the third year.[15] The Laffer curve predicts such an outcome, attributing the primary reason for the greater revenue to higher levels of economic growth stemming from the introduction of the flat tax.

Then there is the "alternative version of the Flat Tax;

Hong Kong Some sources claim that Hong Kong has a flat tax,[54] though its salary tax structure has several different rates ranging from 2% to 20% after deductions. Taxes are capped at 16% of gross income, so this rate is applied to upper income returns if taxes would exceed 16% of gross otherwise.[55] Accordingly, Duncan B. Black of Media Matters for America, says "Hong Kong's 'flat tax' is better described as an 'alternative maximum tax.'" [56] Alan Reynolds of the Cato Institute similarly notes that Hong Kong's "tax on salaries is not flat but steeply progressive."[57] Hong Kong has, nevertheless, a flat profit tax regime.

Flat tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On a personal level, I'm of the opinion that taxes should be used not only as means to fund the Govt. but as a means to promote commerce in this nation. I will try and explain, If this nation instituted a "flat tax" for all, including companies, other than paying lower taxes they would have no other incentive to produce in this nation other than that. However, if for example that tax only applied lets say to those companies willing to produce here let's say apply the 51% rule then I would have no issue with it.

Lastly, Seniors, vets, and those who cannot help for themselves, (disabled), are for the most part how a society is measured in terms of its advancement. To say such things as those , espcially those who's shoulders we stand upon, that they are not doing their fair share, simply because they may be recieving a Social Security Check, because they have contributed often times 60 years of their lives building this great nation, or the solider or sailor wounded in battle or service to this nation they are somehow not doing their fair share, to say to them you need to pay more, that's also unfair. I will leave some with these words,

Ronald Reagan

We shall reflect the compassion that is so much a part of your makeup. How can we love our country and not love our countrymen, and loving them, reach out a hand when they fall, heal them when they are sick, and provide opportunities to make them self-sufficient so they will be equal in fact and not just in theory?
Ronald Reagan: First Inaugural Address. U.S. Inaugural Addresses. 1989
 
So both of you are basically saying that at lower income levels the taxes are actually going to take away from money for basic needs while at higher income levels the taxes would not take from money the people need to survive, making a flat tax unfair. Correct?

Would either of you be able to support a flat tax that say taxed all income over $20,000 at XX percent and all income under $20,000 at zero percent. Basically a flat tax that doesn't start taxing income until some basic level of income is reached.

While that would obviously be better than a flat tax with no exemptions, the answer is no. That a tax on the very poor is taking survival money is only part of the picture. Remember, I listed four ascending uses of money: survival, luxury, savings/investment, and gambling. While we obviously don't want to tax away survival money, luxury and savings/investment also serve useful purposes in the economy and taxing those is not as acceptable as taxing gambling money (but acceptable if gambling money won't yield enough revenue by itself, which is the case).

I would have:

The first $20k of income be untaxed, as you said.
A confiscatory tax on income above $1 million, on the order of at least 50% and probably more like 70+. This would discourage accumulation of vast fortunes and serve to drive more investment into the real economy instead of into gambling, particularly if all such investment was fully tax-deductible (as it should be).
Taxes set on all income in between the two at whatever rate is necessary to meet government expenses.

The middle bracket could probably be a single rate without any problem.

Subjective perception and assumption again... which has no business in a freedom based government that is supposedly based on equal treatment

Not everyone making 20K is in the same boat, just as not everyone making 1MIL is not in the same boat...

What if I won 600MIL in the lottery and then just lived off the savings but worked part time for the fuck of it making 20K?? Is my 20K for 'necessities' too??? What about the person living in mom's basement, rent and food expenses free?? Is that the same?? What about the student earning a free ride with room and board??? What about the E-3 in the military who gets room and board??

Again... subjectivity... and all a bullshit way to promote a class warfare mentality with unequal treatment....

Laughable, really
 
Flat tax is just code for lowering taxes for the wealthy but not for most Americans, as most flat tax rate proposals have the majority of Americans paying the same exact rate or higher than what they currently pay, while considerably lowering the tax rate of the wealthiest Americans. No one with a straight face can claim that is fair.

OK.. 2 can play that game...

Progressive tax only means support of equal treatment when it benefits you and unequal treatment of others when it benefits you... it supports something for you at the expense of others... it means having no stake in the game with the ability to vote for continuing to receive benefits for having no stake in the game

And again, you FUCKING MORON.... it is not about FAIR.. FAIR is SUBJECTIVE and BASED ON PERCEPTION... it is about EQUAL TREATMENT BY GOVERNMENT UNDER LAW....

Do you have to act like that?

Again, Equal is also up for discussion. Because everyones 20,000th dollar earned is taxed the same way while everyones 1,000,000th dollar earned is taxed the same way. That seems pretty equal to me. But obviously not to you.
 
SS income should be taxed at the flat rate after the person has drawn out more than they paid into the SS system. Up till then they have already paid tax on the money once.
 
The title says it all.

I think a flat tax on all americans is the only truly fair tax structure.

For all examples please use a 10% tax rate, I know its not realistic and would have to be higher but just for math purposes in any pro/anti flat tax examples lets use the easy number.


To me a person making $10,000/year paying $1,000 in taxes while a guy making $10,000,000/year paying $1,000,000 in taxes is fair.

I'm not sure how, under our current system at the end of the year, someone making $50,000/year being responsible for ~$12,500 in federal income tax while someone making $25,000/year is responsible to pay ~$3750 in federal income tax. After deductions its more like $8,000 and $0.00 which still doesn't sound fair to me.


So....now that my opinion is here please try to explain to me or convince me how a flat tax is less fair overall than our current tax system.

While a flat tax may sound fair and equitable, it is not. It also doesn't make sense if it were made to actually be fair and equitable. Those of you on the right get so hung up with those who pay no federal income taxes that you simply choose to ignore all the other taxes that are paid by those same people.

Anyway, here is the deal on a flat tax with no deductions for anyone. First of all, to be fair, all other taxes must be rescinded. That means no more excise taxes, no more state sales taxes, no more sin taxes, no more payroll taxes, no more property taxes, no taxes on anything, just a flat income tax for everyone. Let's first start with the necessary rate which would need to be between 30% and 35% based on current spending. That is just for the federal government. On the flipside, the state flat tax would need to be approximately 7% to 10%. Now remember, nobody gets any tax breaks and all income is taxed, capital gains, corporate profits, everything. Are you still liking this flat tax idea now? The rates may seem a bit high, but you must remember that all other taxes must be removed to be fair, and then we would need to account for some income slipping between the cracks and being unreported.

By making everything fair under such a flat tax, people who visit the US will no longer pay any taxes, illegals who work under the table will no longer pay any taxes either. At least now they pay some taxes through sales, sin, and excise taxes. The first thing I can think of is that it would also give great reason for many people to find ways to hide income. The truth is, such a system doesn't even begin to make any sense, and it would be terrible for everyone involved.

Now, you are probably going to tell me that you just meant making a flat tax for federal income taxes and leaving everything else alone. But since the lowest income earners pay the biggest percentage of their income in all those other taxes that the wealthy do not, all of a sudden, we would have the poorest Americans paying the highest percentage of taxes, and the wealthiest Americans paying the least. If this is your true agenda, then just say so. If you really think a flat tax on just federal income taxes is fair, then you haven't done the research or you've just been listening to those right wing nutjobs on the radio too much.
 
Because then everyone would have to pay their fair share and Progressives cant whine abou the rich not paying their fair share.
 
why should we rescind state taxes? This is about federal tax.
And yes other federal taxes could and should be dropped if we have a pure flat federal tax in place as the ONLY tax system for the feds.
 
Well what if we found a percentage that if applied equally to all americans brings in the revenue to cover all the bills?

So what if some low income household is getting $300 a month in food stamps? You want to raise their taxes? Why not just take away their food stamps? Wouldn't that be more efficient and achieve the same effect?

Blind equal stake in the game...

Oh... and eliminate their food stamps.. they can work like anyone else... reducing the need for govt expenditure and reducing the level of a needed tax rate to support govt

Eliminating food stamps and then taxing the poor on every dollar they earn will make the poor poorer.

There you have confirmation of what conservative keep denying around here,

that what they really want, under the flag of 'fairness', is to make the poor poorer and the rich richer.
 
So what if some low income household is getting $300 a month in food stamps? You want to raise their taxes? Why not just take away their food stamps? Wouldn't that be more efficient and achieve the same effect?

Blind equal stake in the game...

Oh... and eliminate their food stamps.. they can work like anyone else... reducing the need for govt expenditure and reducing the level of a needed tax rate to support govt

Eliminating food stamps and then taxing the poor on every dollar they earn will make the poor poorer.

There you have confirmation of what conservative keep denying around here,

that what they really want, under the flag of 'fairness', is to make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

Hey stupid - you do know who pays the MOST taxes, who pays the LEAST, currently - don't you?

Apparently not.

If you were armed with that "public record" fact - you wouldn't be typing such idiot things.

Put your mouth back on Obama's anus where it belongs.
 
Conservatives believe that one of the root causes of all our economic ills is that the poor are undertaxed and the rich are overtaxed.

It's amazing really.
 
Conservatives believe that one of the root causes of all our economic ills is that the poor are undertaxed and the rich are overtaxed.

It's amazing really.

The amazing part is that there are plenty of them who themselves are poor or just barely making it, but when they get medicare, or unemployment or pay no federal taxes it's ok...it's those other moochers who are to blame.
 
Blind equal stake in the game...

Oh... and eliminate their food stamps.. they can work like anyone else... reducing the need for govt expenditure and reducing the level of a needed tax rate to support govt

Eliminating food stamps and then taxing the poor on every dollar they earn will make the poor poorer.

There you have confirmation of what conservative keep denying around here,

that what they really want, under the flag of 'fairness', is to make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

Hey stupid - you do know who pays the MOST taxes, who pays the LEAST, currently - don't you?

Apparently not.

If you were armed with that "public record" fact - you wouldn't be typing such idiot things.

Put your mouth back on Obama's anus where it belongs.

I know exactly who pays what.

Conservatives want the poor to pay more, and receive less. That will make them poorer.

Conservatives want the rich to pay less. That will make them richer.

That is just math, poser.
 
Conservatives believe that one of the root causes of all our economic ills is that the poor are undertaxed and the rich are overtaxed.

It's amazing really.

The amazing part is that there are plenty of them who themselves are poor or just barely making it, but when they get medicare, or unemployment or pay no federal taxes it's ok...it's those other moochers who are to blame.

A commonality among right wingers. It is not my fault!
 
Eliminating food stamps and then taxing the poor on every dollar they earn will make the poor poorer.

There you have confirmation of what conservative keep denying around here,

that what they really want, under the flag of 'fairness', is to make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

Hey stupid - you do know who pays the MOST taxes, who pays the LEAST, currently - don't you?

Apparently not.

If you were armed with that "public record" fact - you wouldn't be typing such idiot things.

Put your mouth back on Obama's anus where it belongs.

I know exactly who pays what.

Conservatives want the poor to pay more, and receive less. That will make them poorer.

Conservatives want the rich to pay less. That will make them richer.

That is just math, poser.

If stupidity was taxed, you'd be in a shitload of trouble.
 
That low income Americans pay such low taxes was caused by Republican tax policy.

It's hilarious, because now they are stuck with it despite all their crazy ideas of how to reverse the situation.
 
10% is fair, but so long as it brings unemployment down to 5%. I would keep the unemployment tax at 0% if all they are getting is $250.00 a week. How come the max unemployment benefit in New York is $600.00? where in many states its 270/250?
 
Flat tax is just code for lowering taxes for the wealthy but not for most Americans, as most flat tax rate proposals have the majority of Americans paying the same exact rate or higher than what they currently pay, while considerably lowering the tax rate of the wealthiest Americans. No one with a straight face can claim that is fair.

OK.. 2 can play that game...

Progressive tax only means support of equal treatment when it benefits you and unequal treatment of others when it benefits you... it supports something for you at the expense of others... it means having no stake in the game with the ability to vote for continuing to receive benefits for having no stake in the game

And again, you FUCKING MORON.... it is not about FAIR.. FAIR is SUBJECTIVE and BASED ON PERCEPTION... it is about EQUAL TREATMENT BY GOVERNMENT UNDER LAW....

Do you have to act like that?

Again, Equal is also up for discussion. Because everyones 20,000th dollar earned is taxed the same way while everyones 1,000,000th dollar earned is taxed the same way. That seems pretty equal to me. But obviously not to you.

No... equal treatment is equal treatment... your attempt to put a subjective situation into means nothing..

Shifting the playing field does not make it equal.... your subjective and arbitrary use of levels makes it so that even though all dollars are earned, not all earnings are equal in terms of taxation... everyone who earns earns dollar 1.. yet not everyone's dollar 1 is truly treated the same in a progressive situation..

You stick dollar 1 in your wallet and leave it there... you stick dollar 100k in your wallet and leave it there.. come back later and can you tell which is which?? Which was taxed and which was not?? Why is it different?? And why does it mean more or less to you that the dollar in the whino's wallet???

I will break it down again.... because it shows the inequality of progressive systems

Person A making 18K
Person B making 30K
Person C making 100K
Person D making 1MIL

In a floor system of 20K paying untaxed... and a 10% flat tax on all above there for argument's sake...
Person A pays ZERO% in income tax, yet receives the services of the courts, laws, national defense, etc... and probably receives entitlements from government that others do not...
Person B pays 1K in taxes of 3.33% income tax on all earnings, regardless if it was dollar 1 left over or dollar 29K left over... maybe receives and entitlement or extra benefit from the government, maybe not
Person C pays 8K in taxes or 8% income tax on all earnings, regardless if it was dollar 1 left over or dollar 79K left over.. most assuredly receives no entitlement nor extra benefit
Person D pays 98K in taxes or 9.8% income tax on all earnings, regardless if it was dollar 1 left over or dollar 999K left over... most assuredly receives no entitlement nor extra benefit

Even in a progressive system like we have currently... it is not about each individual dollar... it comes down to a subjective set of levels for totals for 365 days... it is about the total, not the little increments that get you to that total... it is a smokescreen by government to say one thing, and have it be something else... and it is the same game you play and all of those like you who support unequal treatment play... don't look at the man behind the curtain, look at the message you want to put up for show... don't look at the reality, look at the myth projection

This is not equal treatment in any way, shape or form... it is subjective treatment based on subjective situational bullshit... it is not blind... it is in the spotlight with people shifting the spotlight for power and benefit.. it is how government keeps people battling in it's power grab...
 
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That low income Americans pay such low taxes was caused by Republican tax policy.

It's hilarious, because now they are stuck with it despite all their crazy ideas of how to reverse the situation.

You're unemployed, uneducated, live in a trailer with Mother, and you both share the same bed and food stamps. Why are you lecturing people on paying taxes?
 
That low income Americans pay such low taxes was caused by Republican tax policy.

It's hilarious, because now they are stuck with it despite all their crazy ideas of how to reverse the situation.

Who cares what it was caused by... who it was caused by.. or who along the way made it to one level or another???

What I care is getting rid of it and the smokescreen that has been used against us for wayyyyyy too long...

And don't go acting like DEMs have had nothing to do with the uneven playing field of taxation as well....
 

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