A.D. The Bible Continued on NBC

[peach174]

How much art depicts Jesus as a blond, blue-eyed Caucasian when there is no doubt he was a Semite with typically black hair and dark complexion.

The same art that has him as Black, Asian and Hispanic.

 

[sealybobo]

Didn't Jesus' disciples high tail it out of there and spread the word to non Jews in Europe?

No not exactly. I guess it depends on which source you use. Some sources say they all went to different parts of the known world at the time. Other sources say they stayed in Judea. Tradition says this, the apocrypha says that. Acts says one thing, Paul says another. The truth is we really don't know what happened to them for certain, but at least some of them, Peter most notably, apparently continued to minister to Jews. It was Paul that ministered to Gentiles.

One of them is famous in Greece because he's the one that went to Greece. May have been Paul. I forgot. I'll ask my brother. He's greek orthodox.

Tonight they almost stoned all of jesus"' disciples to death but one Jewish elder saved them. Boy did the Jews miss their opportunity there.

 

[BluePhantom]

Didn't Jesus' disciples high tail it out of there and spread the word to non Jews in Europe?

No not exactly. I guess it depends on which source you use. Some sources say they all went to different parts of the known world at the time. Other sources say they stayed in Judea. Tradition says this, the apocrypha says that. Acts says one thing, Paul says another. The truth is we really don't know what happened to them for certain, but at least some of them, Peter most notably, apparently continued to minister to Jews. It was Paul that ministered to Gentiles.

One of them is famous in Greece because he's the one that went to Greece. May have been Paul. I forgot. I'll ask my brother. He's greek orthodox.

Tonight they almost stoned all of jesus"' disciples to death but one Jewish elder saved them. Boy did the Jews miss their opportunity there.

Paul definitely went to Greece. He founded some churches there. Tradition states that the apostles all split up and went in all different directions, each one going to specific locations. So one went south, one went east, etc. Thunk of it like the face of a clock with Jerusalem at the center and they all went in the direction of each number. But this is tradition. There's not a shred of evidence of it and of course in some ways it makes no sense because a couple of them would go directly into the sea. I guess they ministered to the squid.

We know from the letters of Paul that they stayed in Jerusalem at lest for a time and he refers in one letter to meeting with all 12 apostles roughly eighteen years after his conversion. So...oh...maybe 20 years or so after the death of Jesus they were apparently all in Jerusalem, according to Paul. Whether they stayed there the entire time or left and came back,or whether Paul was full of shit to begin with, is unknown. Again, no one knows what happened to them. We have traditional stories and that's about it.

As far as the old guy n the show, that was Gamaliel, who was considered the top rabbinic mind at the time and who Paul claimed to be a student of. Again, whether that's true or just embellishments by Paul is unknown.

 

[BluePhantom]

Well I finally got around to addressing this. Up until now I have been giving the benefit of the doubt and allowing for some artistic license. Last Sunday's episode was such a complete cluster fuck that it totally destroys the message of Paul. In the episode, Saul (Paul) was shown confronting Peter directly prior to his conversion and arguing about the verse in Deuteronomy about God cursing those who hang from a tree. In the show it is Peter that argues about the Deuteronomic verse.

This is so huge I cannot understate it, for that verse is critical to understanding the Pauline Doctrine of Justification Through Faith. That doctrine is what Christianity is based upon totally and completely. Paul is very specific in his letter to the Galatians that he did not meet Peter until three or four years after his conversion. This is critical because Paul is attempting to establish that his teachings come from Jesus Himself and not from Peter or the Apostles. In the TV depiction, the entire doctrine of Justification Through Faith comes from Peter and not Paul.

For those that do not know scripture, I cannot stress enough how big of a fuck up this is. This is an epic proportion, throw the whole faith over your shoulder, start from scratch cluster fuck. This is exactly what I have been concerned about. No problem in some artistic license but I don't think the producers even understand what they just did. That means the producers do not understand the scripture they are trying to depict. And viewers will think this is what scripture says...it is not. The last episode totally destroys the basis for Christian faith.

Terrible...absolutely terrible

 

[sealybobo]

Well I finally got around to addressing this. Up until now I have been giving the benefit of the doubt and allowing for some artistic license. Last Sunday's episode was such a complete cluster fuck that it totally destroys the message of Paul. In the episode, Saul (Paul) was shown confronting Peter directly prior to his conversion and arguing about the verse in Deuteronomy about God cursing those who hang from a tree. In the show it is Peter that argues about the Deuteronomic verse.

This is so huge I cannot understate it, for that verse is critical to understanding the Pauline Doctrine of Justification Through Faith. That doctrine is what Christianity is based upon totally and completely. Paul is very specific in his letter to the Galatians that he did not meet Peter until three or four years after his conversion. This is critical because Paul is attempting to establish that his teachings come from Jesus Himself and not from Peter or the Apostles. In the TV depiction, the entire doctrine of Justification Through Faith comes from Peter and not Paul.

For those that do not know scripture, I cannot stress enough how big of a fuck up this is. This is an epic proportion, throw the whole faith over your shoulder, start from scratch cluster fuck. This is exactly what I have been concerned about. No problem in some artistic license but I don't think the producers even understand what they just did. That means the producers do not understand the scripture they are trying to depict. And viewers will think this is what scripture says...it is not. The last episode totally destroys the basis for Christian faith.

Terrible...absolutely terrible

Coming from an athiest I laugh because you christians can't even get the story straight.

As a rational person I can only toss the entire story out and demand we start over. Sorry god but the message got lost. Maybe you should have waited until we started writing and recording history before you sent your son. Oh yea, they were recording history, only none of Jesus' 12 thought to write what Jesus said down. In fact the bibles may have only been written hundred of years after the fact.

Bottom line is I can't believe the bible or christians. God should send another son. Go cure cancer in the hospitals and I promise this time we won't crucify you.

 

[BluePhantom]

Well I finally got around to addressing this. Up until now I have been giving the benefit of the doubt and allowing for some artistic license. Last Sunday's episode was such a complete cluster fuck that it totally destroys the message of Paul. In the episode, Saul (Paul) was shown confronting Peter directly prior to his conversion and arguing about the verse in Deuteronomy about God cursing those who hang from a tree. In the show it is Peter that argues about the Deuteronomic verse.

This is so huge I cannot understate it, for that verse is critical to understanding the Pauline Doctrine of Justification Through Faith. That doctrine is what Christianity is based upon totally and completely. Paul is very specific in his letter to the Galatians that he did not meet Peter until three or four years after his conversion. This is critical because Paul is attempting to establish that his teachings come from Jesus Himself and not from Peter or the Apostles. In the TV depiction, the entire doctrine of Justification Through Faith comes from Peter and not Paul.

For those that do not know scripture, I cannot stress enough how big of a fuck up this is. This is an epic proportion, throw the whole faith over your shoulder, start from scratch cluster fuck. This is exactly what I have been concerned about. No problem in some artistic license but I don't think the producers even understand what they just did. That means the producers do not understand the scripture they are trying to depict. And viewers will think this is what scripture says...it is not. The last episode totally destroys the basis for Christian faith.

Terrible...absolutely terrible

Coming from an athiest I laugh because you christians can't even get the story straight.

As a rational person I can only toss the entire story out and demand we start over. Sorry god but the message got lost. Maybe you should have waited until we started writing and recording history before you sent your son. Oh yea, they were recording history, only none of Jesus' 12 thought to write what Jesus said down. In fact the bibles may have only been written hundred of years after the fact.

Bottom line is I can't believe the bible or christians. God should send another son. Go cure cancer in the hospitals and I promise this time we won't crucify you.

I am not sure where you are getting the hundreds of years thing. You mentioned that before on another thread and I never got around to responding to it. The books of the Bible were not compiled together for hundreds of years after Jesus' death but they existed as individual books far earlier. Most scholars date the latest book, Revelation, at 120 CE or earlier. We know this for several reasons. One is the Temple of Jerusalem. Books that refer to the temple as still existing were probably written prior to 70 CE before the Temple was destroyed. Also the early Church fathers such as Origen and Polycarp refer to certain books in their writings. So if you have a guy writing a commentary on the Gospel of Matthew in 165 CE, for example, then the book was clearly in existence and circulation prior to that. There may be some scholars that argue for far later dates but they would be in the minority...the vast minority actually.

 

[sealybobo]

Well I finally got around to addressing this. Up until now I have been giving the benefit of the doubt and allowing for some artistic license. Last Sunday's episode was such a complete cluster fuck that it totally destroys the message of Paul. In the episode, Saul (Paul) was shown confronting Peter directly prior to his conversion and arguing about the verse in Deuteronomy about God cursing those who hang from a tree. In the show it is Peter that argues about the Deuteronomic verse.

This is so huge I cannot understate it, for that verse is critical to understanding the Pauline Doctrine of Justification Through Faith. That doctrine is what Christianity is based upon totally and completely. Paul is very specific in his letter to the Galatians that he did not meet Peter until three or four years after his conversion. This is critical because Paul is attempting to establish that his teachings come from Jesus Himself and not from Peter or the Apostles. In the TV depiction, the entire doctrine of Justification Through Faith comes from Peter and not Paul.

For those that do not know scripture, I cannot stress enough how big of a fuck up this is. This is an epic proportion, throw the whole faith over your shoulder, start from scratch cluster fuck. This is exactly what I have been concerned about. No problem in some artistic license but I don't think the producers even understand what they just did. That means the producers do not understand the scripture they are trying to depict. And viewers will think this is what scripture says...it is not. The last episode totally destroys the basis for Christian faith.

Terrible...absolutely terrible

Coming from an athiest I laugh because you christians can't even get the story straight.

As a rational person I can only toss the entire story out and demand we start over. Sorry god but the message got lost. Maybe you should have waited until we started writing and recording history before you sent your son. Oh yea, they were recording history, only none of Jesus' 12 thought to write what Jesus said down. In fact the bibles may have only been written hundred of years after the fact.

Bottom line is I can't believe the bible or christians. God should send another son. Go cure cancer in the hospitals and I promise this time we won't crucify you.

I am not sure where you are getting the hundreds of years thing. You mentioned that before on another thread and I never got around to responding to it. The books of the Bible were not compiled together for hundreds of years after Jesus' death but they existed as individual books far earlier. Most scholars date the latest book, Revelation, at 120 CE or earlier. We know this for several reasons. One is the Temple of Jerusalem. Books that refer to the temple as still existing were probably written prior to 70 CE before the Temple was destroyed. Also the early Church fathers such as Origen and Polycarp refer to certain books in their writings. So if you have a guy writing a commentary on the Gospel of Matthew in 165 CE, for example, then the book was clearly in existence and circulation prior to that. There may be some scholars that argue for far later dates but they would be in the minority...the vast minority actually.

Only christian scholars but that's an oxymoron. If they are putting their faith in hearsay and stories from a church you can hardly say any of them have hard evidence of this. Did you know not one non christian wrote about Jesus after seeing him? Every non christian who wrote about Jesus did it from hearsay second or 3rd hand accounts. Someone told jesephus about Jesus and he wrote about it. He was not a witness.

Other things from this time survive. Even older. Yet nothing from Jesus survives except for a shroud which by the way my brother is going to see.

If you want to believe it all that's cool. I'm just too smart for that. And that's OK because no god said believe christianity or go to hell. That is a lie written by men hundreds of years after Jesus died. When the religion was just a cult.

 

[BluePhantom]

Only christian scholars but that's an oxymoron.

No...not just Christian scholars. Most scholars regardless of their religious persuasion. Seven books are letters from Paul that are nearly undisputed regarding their authorship. Unless you think Paul lived for a couple hundred years, it's safe to say they were written in the early to mid 1st century CE. The synoptic gospels are almost universally dated as Mark being written somewhere between 65-70 CE, Luke and Matthew about 15 years later, and John about 10 years after that. The pseudepigraphic epistles (1 Peter, 2 Peter, 2 Thessalonians, 1 John, etc) are almost universally dated in the late 1st century CE. The Epistles of John are usually dated in the late 90s at the latest. Some scholars believe Revelation was written later, in around 120 CE, but this is the minority opinion. The vast majority place its composition in the latter part of the reign of Domitian in 81 - 96 CE. Irenaeus was writing commentaries on Revelation and other books that would eventually comprise the Bible in 170 CE, and Polycarp writes about many of them around 130 CE, so it's pretty clear they were written before then.

If they are putting their faith in hearsay and stories from a church you can hardly say any of them have hard evidence of this. Did you know not one non christian wrote about Jesus after seeing him? Every non christian who wrote about Jesus did it from hearsay second or 3rd hand accounts. Someone told jesephus about Jesus and he wrote about it. He was not a witness.

Other things from this time survive. Even older. Yet nothing from Jesus survives except for a shroud which by the way my brother is going to see.

I am perfectly well aware of this, but it is not terribly surprising. Everything about Socrates and Confucius comes from hearsay as well. One must remember that the followers of Jesus were largely peasants from rural Galilee which means they were almost certainly illiterate. The Bible even references this in Acts where it points out that Peter and John were "agrammatoi" (the Greek word for illiterate). So it's not like there was anyone who was able to follow Jesus around and keep a travel log. The Romans would not have kept anything. To them He was just another trouble maker...the headache of the day and He was probably forgotten about by them a day or two after His crucifixion. It's not like they would have kept the cross or the spears or the scourge and preserved them as sacred relics because to them He was just another uppity Jew. It's not like the disciples could preserve them...they were on the run. How would they get their hands on these things to preserve them? And why would anyone except a follower of Jesus write about Jesus until far later when His life began to have a true impact on society? So, yes, what you are saying is true, but it's not at all surprising given the circumstances.

If you want to believe it all that's cool. I'm just too smart for that. And that's OK because no god said believe christianity or go to hell. That is a lie written by men hundreds of years after Jesus died. When the religion was just a cult.

Look at you patting yourself on the back for your self-proclaimed brilliance. Don't reach too hard. I wouldn't want you to sprain your shoulder. BTW, I agree with you about the hell thing. Not sure how we got to that topic though.

 

[sealybobo]

Notice

Well I finally got around to addressing this. Up until now I have been giving the benefit of the doubt and allowing for some artistic license. Last Sunday's episode was such a complete cluster fuck that it totally destroys the message of Paul. In the episode, Saul (Paul) was shown confronting Peter directly prior to his conversion and arguing about the verse in Deuteronomy about God cursing those who hang from a tree. In the show it is Peter that argues about the Deuteronomic verse.

This is so huge I cannot understate it, for that verse is critical to understanding the Pauline Doctrine of Justification Through Faith. That doctrine is what Christianity is based upon totally and completely. Paul is very specific in his letter to the Galatians that he did not meet Peter until three or four years after his conversion. This is critical because Paul is attempting to establish that his teachings come from Jesus Himself and not from Peter or the Apostles. In the TV depiction, the entire doctrine of Justification Through Faith comes from Peter and not Paul.

For those that do not know scripture, I cannot stress enough how big of a fuck up this is. This is an epic proportion, throw the whole faith over your shoulder, start from scratch cluster fuck. This is exactly what I have been concerned about. No problem in some artistic license but I don't think the producers even understand what they just did. That means the producers do not understand the scripture they are trying to depict. And viewers will think this is what scripture says...it is not. The last episode totally destroys the basis for Christian faith.

Terrible...absolutely terrible

Notice how god demonstrates his existence to the people? Apparently god has interacted with humans several times in history but we're the unlucky ones in the dice roll of time. Why has he gone in hiding?

Maybe people werent buying the god theory until people started claiming encounters with it. You can't control people with a god you believe is real. You have to know matter of fact.

 

[sealybobo]

God blinded Saul then let some guy heal him.

 

[BluePhantom]

God blinded Saul then let some guy heal him.

I have not watched this week's episode. i will watch it with my wife tomorrow probably so i can't comment on its merits or lack thereof