A Conservative Wakes Up

[REVxERIK]

why can't we just agree that both parties have their share of nonsense and common sense, for the leftist nonsense, Arianna Huffington. The right, Glenn beck. Common sense left, Bill Maher. Common sense right, Senator john Mcain.

Oh, please.

Maher is a dithering hack and McQuisling is a career jellyfish appeaser and enabler.

dude, ha that really is your name, that's my personal opinion. don't be jerk. how is maher a dithering hack?

 

[Oddball]

You're kidding, right?

You ever seen his show?...Since he left Comedy Central (when his show was great because his ridicule was on an equal opportunity basis) his show panels have been a dogpile on the token non-leftist.

On top of that, running around calling everyone who doesn't buy into your slave worship of far leftist authoritarianism "stupid" hardly wins anyone points in the "common sense" category.

 

[Mister T]

right: religion
left: science

hmmm......

Yeah, right.

Just wait until the leftists start quoting scripture to rationalize their stupid and ineffective welfare state.

what?

 

[REVxERIK]

You're kidding, right?

You ever seen his show?...Since he left Comedy Central (when his show was great because his ridicule was on an equal opportunity basis) his show panels have been a dogpile on the token non-leftist.

On top of that, running around calling everyone who doesn't buy into your slave worship of far leftist authoritarianism "stupid" hardly wins anyone points in the "common sense" category.

well actually i see clips every once in a while (don't have hbo) and he always really makes sense, to me anyway.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

Because I'm sick of their moral equivalence arguments, their moral blindness, their insane desire for power, and their certainty that they really are warm caring people and conservatives are mean cruel and heatless.

studies have shown a strong correlation between religion and crime rates, teen pregnancy, STD transmission, and other undesirables. It seems people who can come to morality based on their own convictions instead of having it forced down their throat with hand waiving and unsubstantiated reasons of "cuz the bible says so" hold better to it.

right: religion
left: science

hmmm......

Yeah, right.

Just wait until the leftists start quoting scripture to rationalize their stupid and ineffective welfare state.

what? sorry can you give an example of when that's happened before (to the extent that the right does it)?

 

[Oddball]

what? sorry can you give an example of when that's happened before (to the extent that the right does it)?

The right, generally speaking, doesn't do that....much.

However, if you want an example of how the left does it, just hang around awhile. It happens with alarming regularity when the left is trying to back the fundies into a corner, viz. their do-gooder handout programs.

 

[Ringel05]

Interesting take on the responses, you did bring in your own bias in your assessment but this (for most people) is unavoidable. Part of the problem with the "exercise" are the terms liberal and conservative and how you applied them. Conservatism is nothing more than laissez-faire while liberalism embraces change (to one degree or another). Those living in your "communal" world would be the conservatives of that society while anyone opposed or wishing change would be the liberals. If the society you mentioned was your utopia and you were living within it you would then be the conservative, not the liberal.

Actually I tried (wanted) to keep liberal out of the picture completely. The idea was why are these ideas wrong to the conservative and how would they react if this was the world. But as soon as you mention egalitarian you move left. Still I think it worked as the conservatives on the board had no clear answer. I am not sure where you place yourself .

Since conservatives have managed to make liberal a bad word what really is a conservative. Seems they don't really know.

My positions are issue driven, even within different aspects of specific issues. But if you really wanted to "peg" me to the current political spectrum I guess I would be mostly right of center, with a couple of issues swinging my much further right in relation to those issues only. Some issues move me somewhat left of center but never to the far left, been there done that, burned the T-shirt.
As for how the term liberal became a bad word it all really started (in England) during the rise of Bolshivism and Fascism on the continent and the social democrats in England trying to distance themselves from both. From that beginning liberalism became more and more associated with socialism. Just like today, people who are not necessarily conservative, by definition are, deragatorily labled as adhering to conservativism.

 

[Oddball]

You're kidding, right?

You ever seen his show?...Since he left Comedy Central (when his show was great because his ridicule was on an equal opportunity basis) his show panels have been a dogpile on the token non-leftist.

On top of that, running around calling everyone who doesn't buy into your slave worship of far leftist authoritarianism "stupid" hardly wins anyone points in the "common sense" category.

well actually i see clips every once in a while (don't have hbo) and he always really makes sense, to me anyway.

That tells me a lot about you, as much as it does Maher.

 

[The Rabbi]

Because I'm sick of their moral equivalence arguments, their moral blindness, their insane desire for power, and their certainty that they really are warm caring people and conservatives are mean cruel and heatless.

studies have shown a strong correlation between religion and crime rates, teen pregnancy, STD transmission, and other undesirables. It seems people who can come to morality based on their own convictions instead of having it forced down their throat with hand waiving and unsubstantiated reasons of "cuz the bible says so" hold better to it.

Uh, OK. And you're telling us this because???

 

[SmarterThanHick]

cuz it was relevant in regards to moral arguments presented by religious vs non religious people?

 

[The Rabbi]

cuz it was relevant in regards to moral arguments presented by religious vs non religious people?

And that has to do with a thread on Democratic aims, how exactly?

 

[REVxERIK]

You're kidding, right?

You ever seen his show?...Since he left Comedy Central (when his show was great because his ridicule was on an equal opportunity basis) his show panels have been a dogpile on the token non-leftist.

On top of that, running around calling everyone who doesn't buy into your slave worship of far leftist authoritarianism "stupid" hardly wins anyone points in the "common sense" category.

well actually i see clips every once in a while (don't have hbo) and he always really makes sense, to me anyway.

That tells me a lot about you, as much as it does Maher.

what does it tell you?

 

[midcan5]

What about a society where everyone can shit golden eggs out their ass? That is as realistic a scenario as the one you painted.

This reminds me of a discussion on NPR or somewhere by some European who maintained that fathers of daughters were mroe likely to be left leaning than fathers of sons because they wanted "someone" to take care of their daughter.
It was total bullshit.

Shit golden eggs, hmm... this reply is a bit tongue in cheek.

I doubt you have heard of Robert Trivers or understand natural selection as it is curious how females do marry. I can't find the study but females tend to marry up the food chain scale. The implications of that are complex but think for a moment of a place where males are not viewed on their way up.

Now are liberals high on the food chain, seems many are as 'reciprocal altruism' is another natural phenomenon studied too through natural selection. So while shitting golden eggs is a fantasy the other points and my points are not. Tax rates put in place under FDR were 90% and the economy grew till the 70's, so there is a bit of proof that the TE is within the reasonable.

Trivers is here, I was just looking through his book but you need to educate yourself.
ROBERT TRIVERS—An Edge Special event


"There is no historical evidence that tax cuts spur economic growth. The highest period of growth in U.S. history (1933-1973) also saw its highest tax rates on the rich: 70 to 91 percent. During this period, the general tax rate climbed as well, but it reached a plateau in 1969, and growth slowed down five years later. Almost all rich nations have higher general taxes than the U.S., and they are growing faster as well."
Tax cuts spur economic growth


I do not like the word progressive as not all progress is good, I am a pragmatic liberal not a utopian.

 

[midcan5]

My positions are issue driven, even within different aspects of specific issues. But if you really wanted to "peg" me to the current political spectrum I guess I would be mostly right of center, with a couple of issues swinging my much further right in relation to those issues only. Some issues move me somewhat left of center but never to the far left, been there done that, burned the T-shirt.
As for how the term liberal became a bad word it all really started (in England) during the rise of Bolshivism and Fascism on the continent and the social democrats in England trying to distance themselves from both. From that beginning liberalism became more and more associated with socialism. Just like today, people who are not necessarily conservative, by definition are, deragatorily labled as adhering to conservativism.

We won't hold that against you, well not too much. lol

I do disagree that liberal as a stick started then as I am old enough to remember when it was positive and everyone was liberal. Remember Fukuyama, history ended and we are all liberal. Liberal constitutional democracy won and peace settled on earth. Boy, that is a study isn't it.

When did liberal become a bad word? And just what is a conservative? - Q Archive - News & Observer

 

[Ringel05]

My positions are issue driven, even within different aspects of specific issues. But if you really wanted to "peg" me to the current political spectrum I guess I would be mostly right of center, with a couple of issues swinging my much further right in relation to those issues only. Some issues move me somewhat left of center but never to the far left, been there done that, burned the T-shirt.
As for how the term liberal became a bad word it all really started (in England) during the rise of Bolshivism and Fascism on the continent and the social democrats in England trying to distance themselves from both. From that beginning liberalism became more and more associated with socialism. Just like today, people who are not necessarily conservative, by definition are, deragatorily labled as adhering to conservativism.

We won't hold that against you, well not too much. lol

I do disagree that liberal as a stick started then as I am old enough to remember when it was positive and everyone was liberal. Remember Fukuyama, history ended and we are all liberal. Liberal constitutional democracy won and peace settled on earth. Boy, that is a study isn't it.

When did liberal become a bad word? And just what is a conservative? - Q Archive - News & Observer

Excellent but incomplete article. I was refering to the "modern" rise of the term liberal. The transformation started in the 30s/40s, this does not mean reached it's fruition. One can argue it didn't reach it's current "discription" until the 1970s/80s and that discription didn't become vogue until the late 90s.

 

[Diuretic]

Interesting take on the responses, you did bring in your own bias in your assessment but this (for most people) is unavoidable. Part of the problem with the "exercise" are the terms liberal and conservative and how you applied them. Conservatism is nothing more than laissez-faire while liberalism embraces change (to one degree or another). Those living in your "communal" world would be the conservatives of that society while anyone opposed or wishing change would be the liberals. If the society you mentioned was your utopia and you were living within it you would then be the conservative, not the liberal.

Actually I tried (wanted) to keep liberal out of the picture completely. The idea was why are these ideas wrong to the conservative and how would they react if this was the world. But as soon as you mention egalitarian you move left. Still I think it worked as the conservatives on the board had no clear answer. I am not sure where you place yourself .

Since conservatives have managed to make liberal a bad word what really is a conservative. Seems they don't really know.

The reason "liberal" is a bad word is because of the socialists who stole it to camouflage their agenda. Now that the words are now virtually synonymous, they've begun hiding behind "progressive".

This begs the question: Progress toward what?

Progress towards a reduction of misery in society (got that from Popper, not an original thought but it works for me),

 

[Diuretic]

My positions are issue driven, even within different aspects of specific issues. But if you really wanted to "peg" me to the current political spectrum I guess I would be mostly right of center, with a couple of issues swinging my much further right in relation to those issues only. Some issues move me somewhat left of center but never to the far left, been there done that, burned the T-shirt.
As for how the term liberal became a bad word it all really started (in England) during the rise of Bolshivism and Fascism on the continent and the social democrats in England trying to distance themselves from both. From that beginning liberalism became more and more associated with socialism. Just like today, people who are not necessarily conservative, by definition are, deragatorily labled as adhering to conservativism.

We won't hold that against you, well not too much. lol

I do disagree that liberal as a stick started then as I am old enough to remember when it was positive and everyone was liberal. Remember Fukuyama, history ended and we are all liberal. Liberal constitutional democracy won and peace settled on earth. Boy, that is a study isn't it.

When did liberal become a bad word? And just what is a conservative? - Q Archive - News & Observer

Excellent but incomplete article. I was refering to the "modern" rise of the term liberal. The transformation started in the 30s/40s, this does not mean reached it's fruition. One can argue it didn't reach it's current "discription" until the 1970s/80s and that discription didn't become vogue until the late 90s.

I suspect that the mutation of the word "liberal" and its associated meanings is down to US politics. I can't remember right now any such denigration in Europe but that doesn't mean it didn't happen of course. In Europe they tend to be a little more specific when using political terms and "liberal" means too many different things to be useful now.

 

[seth1492]

Let's think of a coherent answer then... she moves.

She woke up again from a dream after the coma and realized wonderfully, that none of that terrible nightmare was even possible. It's not that your thought experiment is bad, matter of fact i like thinking like that... the problem is I can't get past the inconsistencies with the story's background. I would definitely go somewhere else then be told that things are now equal.

What is equal anyways? How and who judges that? There would always be the have and the have nots, because power corrupts. Look at government now. The more control citizens give their government, no matter the intentions for good, the easier it is to get tyranny.

 

[The Rabbi]

I suspect that the mutation of the word "liberal" and its associated meanings is down to US politics. I can't remember right now any such denigration in Europe but that doesn't mean it didn't happen of course. In Europe they tend to be a little more specific when using political terms and "liberal" means too many different things to be useful now.

What we call "conservative" today is really closer to "liberal" in the classic sense. It tends to emphasize the unique nature of man, his dignity and rights and independence.
What we call "liberal" today is really closer to "fascist" in the classical sense. It tends to emphasize the needs of society (i.e. the state) over the individual.

 

[Ringel05]

We won't hold that against you, well not too much. lol

I do disagree that liberal as a stick started then as I am old enough to remember when it was positive and everyone was liberal. Remember Fukuyama, history ended and we are all liberal. Liberal constitutional democracy won and peace settled on earth. Boy, that is a study isn't it.

When did liberal become a bad word? And just what is a conservative? - Q Archive - News & Observer

Excellent but incomplete article. I was refering to the "modern" rise of the term liberal. The transformation started in the 30s/40s, this does not mean reached it's fruition. One can argue it didn't reach it's current "discription" until the 1970s/80s and that discription didn't become vogue until the late 90s.

I suspect that the mutation of the word "liberal" and its associated meanings is down to US politics. I can't remember right now any such denigration in Europe but that doesn't mean it didn't happen of course. In Europe they tend to be a little more specific when using political terms and "liberal" means too many different things to be useful now.

Sorry didn't realize but I was implying US politics in general. Many European economists that observed or created this switch in definitions ended up visiting or staying in the US in the late 40s and 50s.