A Conservative Wakes Up

[Darkwind]

For Discussion - Thought Experiment #1

A few may be familiar with my nutshells, in them I tried to isolate the characteristics of a particular ideology. This time you decide, but remember this is a thought experiment and the premise is not debatable. (Try to stay away from slogan answers.)

One day a conservative wakes up from a coma in a world unlike her past world. In this world equality trumps personal freedom. The political structure could be defined as a constitutional cooperative in which decisions are made democratically and an elected court settled issues that any average citizen or minority group could disagree on.

The overall philosophical Weltanschauung means no one is super rich and no one poor. The society varies but it excludes extremes. All receive a stipend, so all live securely. All fundamental services are free, these include transportation, education, and healthcare. Work is private, state, and federal but all work is supportive of the society and not just the person or corporation, above average profits are returned to the society. The business person, entrepreneur, artist, does enjoy prestige and a higher standard of living.

The conservatives finds this odd and uncharacteristic but soon grows accustom to the society, she receives a stipend, finishes her education, and finds work in a private industry.

One day the conservative discovers there is another nation in which personal freedom trumps equality. In this place extremes of all kinds exist and government and law exist to defend or to protect power. This nation is basically considered a libertarian capitalistic republic. In this society no stipend system exists and no service is free. While the nations are isolated from each other, each feels, and their media supports their political structure as the best political structure. Movement between nations is possible as both at a base level respect personal freedom.

What does the conservative do and why? Does she stay or leave for a nation that allows more economic freedoms, more profit, and is similar to her core ideological position up to her coma? Or does she change and stay, why?

A very poor premise.

Personal Freedom and equality are not exclusive.

 

[midcan5]

Personal Freedom and equality are not exclusive.

I didn't say they were, but a great many people, particularly conservatives believe that hierarchy trumps equality. I just reversed the order of importance.

 

[midcan5]

Since there are a lot of newcomers on the board, I thought I'd bump this thought experiment.

There is no need to read the replies, just answer the question based not on what you believe, but on what you'd choose to do given the situation. Lots of people think freedom is a sort of anarchy, and this freedom itself will manage the politics of living in a world of competing interests.

 

[editec]

T^hose of you who imagine that this nation is truly in a battle between capitalism and socialism don't know what either term really means.

We are not remotely a captialist society.

Corruption of government by the invstment class virtually eliminaates anything remotely true to the capitalistic ideal.

The GOP doesn't support the libertopian theory of free market capitalism any more the DNC does.

 

[Intense]

For Discussion - Thought Experiment #1

A few may be familiar with my nutshells, in them I tried to isolate the characteristics of a particular ideology. This time you decide, but remember this is a thought experiment and the premise is not debatable. (Try to stay away from slogan answers.)

One day a conservative wakes up from a coma in a world unlike her past world. In this world equality trumps personal freedom. The political structure could be defined as a constitutional cooperative in which decisions are made democratically and an elected court settled issues that any average citizen or minority group could disagree on.

The overall philosophical Weltanschauung means no one is super rich and no one poor. The society varies but it excludes extremes. All receive a stipend, so all live securely. All fundamental services are free, these include transportation, education, and healthcare. Work is private, state, and federal but all work is supportive of the society and not just the person or corporation, above average profits are returned to the society. The business person, entrepreneur, artist, does enjoy prestige and a higher standard of living.

The conservatives finds this odd and uncharacteristic but soon grows accustom to the society, she receives a stipend, finishes her education, and finds work in a private industry.

One day the conservative discovers there is another nation in which personal freedom trumps equality. In this place extremes of all kinds exist and government and law exist to defend or to protect power. This nation is basically considered a libertarian capitalistic republic. In this society no stipend system exists and no service is free. While the nations are isolated from each other, each feels, and their media supports their political structure as the best political structure. Movement between nations is possible as both at a base level respect personal freedom.

What does the conservative do and why? Does she stay or leave for a nation that allows more economic freedoms, more profit, and is similar to her core ideological position up to her coma? Or does she change and stay, why?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qBK4RRpouQ&feature=fvsr]Born Free - YouTube[/ame]
Born Free

 

[Intense]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA51wyl-9IE]Richie Havens, Freedom, (Woodstock) - YouTube[/ame]
Richie Havens, Freedom, (Woodstock)

 

[SniperFire]

I believe the OP is trying to say 'imagine if Communism actually worked.'

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Common sense and Librulism are parallel tracks that never meet.

That is a remark that shows your partisan bigotry to a belief system. As long as there those like you and Pogo on the right who truly believe that god has given only conservatives the right answer, there will never be a common good or ground achieved.

Yours is isolation and the destruction of any philosophy that doesn't agree with you.

Yes, there are some liberals who think like you. They are also small minded bigots who wear blinders in their life.

The extremes like you are a small minority, but they are vocal and the media finds this more interesting than the day to day progress that common sense people achieve.

The Schiavo remark is meaningless but expected.

Dude, the majorit of the country voted for Obama. Ain't no socialism or communism coming soon my friend, just more smoke and mirrors for a side that has not traction with reality.

Fuck off, Buckwheat

 

[midcan5]

I believe the OP is trying to say 'imagine if Communism actually worked.'

Or here's an even harder thought, imagine if capitalism worked there'd be no communism.

Today all economies that work are mixed, simply the only way as no ideology contains the blueprint for economic harmony.

"Material poverty provides the incentive to change precisely in situations where there is very little margin for experiments. Material prosperity removes the incentive just when it might be safe to take a chance. Europe lacks the means, America the will, to make a move. We need a new set of convictions which spring naturally from candid examination of our own inner feelings in relation to the outside facts." John Maynard Keynes

 

[Robert_Stephens]

What does the conservative do and why? Does she stay or leave for a nation that allows more economic freedoms, more profit, and is similar to her core ideological position up to her coma? Or does she change and stay, why?

A better question would be; why is it the sniveling socialist doesn't leave America and move to one of those socialist worker's paradises he gazes at so longingly, rather than try to impose that system upon everyone else by mob rule?

Canada is not so bad--just Cold!! Personally, I like the rising Brazil. Not a socialistic paradise, not a bastion of free market ideals. Lots of beautiful women!!

Belieze is much better. I live just south in Majahual, Yucatan. Come and visit when I am home there and checkl it out for an alternative, just in case...

Robert

 

[midcan5]

I was discussing this on another site and thought I'd comment here. Ideology in America today is so deeply embedded in the minds of both the people and the politicians that you have to marvel at the power of corporate and wealth propaganda. Today your thoughts come to you in Econ 101 never to be lost or challenged. So I thought I'd step outside the frame and give my answer.

The conservative woman stays. Let me repeat that for the sake of those who cannot even get out of their ideological mind and answer. She stays. Why does she stay? She is a conservative and not an ideological American of whatever period you care to choose. People are so locked up in their ideology frames they fail to see the frame. Why would someone comfortable with life move. I should have added one stipulation in the TE but I'll leave that out for now. But I bet someone will catch it.

See an example of ideology from a Marxist perspective.

'Here is an example that will help make concrete what is at stake in the Marxian theory of ideology:'

A. Members of the “Tea Party” in the United States believe that low taxes are in the general interest (meaning, in particular, that they are in the interest of the lower - and middle - class people who make up large portions of the Tea Party).

B. Members of the “Tea Party” are mistaken: Low taxes are not in their interest, since middle - and lower - class people depend on Social Security, Medicare, public schools, public parks, and other facilities that satisfy the needs and desires of most people and that can only be funded at adequate levels if taxes are higher, especially on the wealthy.

C. Members of the “Tea Party” are mistaken about which policies are in their interest because (in part) they are mistaken about how they came to believe (A); that is, they do not realize the extent to which propaganda by the ruling classes led them to their false belief. If they realized the extent to which, for example, billionaires fund advertising and candidates to promote the belief in (A) because it serves the interest of billionaires, they would no longer be able to believe (A).

Nothing depends for our purposes on whether this is correct, though it is prima facie plausible. What matters is that it illustrates the conceptual structure of the claim that certain moral, political, or legal ideas might be ideological."

http://www.virginialawreview.org/sites/virginialawreview.org/files/Leiter_Book.pdf

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I was discussing this on another site and thought I'd comment here. Ideology in America today is so deeply embedded in the minds of both the people and the politicians that you have to marvel at the power of corporate and wealth propaganda. Today your thoughts come to you in Econ 101 never to be lost or challenged. So I thought I'd step outside the frame and give my answer.

The conservative woman stays. Let me repeat that for the sake of those who cannot even get out of their ideological mind and answer. She stays. Why does she stay? She is a conservative and not an ideological American of whatever period you care to choose. People are so locked up in their ideology frames they fail to see the frame. Why would someone comfortable with life move. I should have added one stipulation in the TE but I'll leave that out for now. But I bet someone will catch it.

See an example of ideology from a Marxist perspective.

'Here is an example that will help make concrete what is at stake in the Marxian theory of ideology:'

A. Members of the “Tea Party” in the United States believe that low taxes are in the general interest (meaning, in particular, that they are in the interest of the lower - and middle - class people who make up large portions of the Tea Party).

B. Members of the “Tea Party” are mistaken: Low taxes are not in their interest, since middle - and lower - class people depend on Social Security, Medicare, public schools, public parks, and other facilities that satisfy the needs and desires of most people and that can only be funded at adequate levels if taxes are higher, especially on the wealthy.

C. Members of the “Tea Party” are mistaken about which policies are in their interest because (in part) they are mistaken about how they came to believe (A); that is, they do not realize the extent to which propaganda by the ruling classes led them to their false belief. If they realized the extent to which, for example, billionaires fund advertising and candidates to promote the belief in (A) because it serves the interest of billionaires, they would no longer be able to believe (A).

Nothing depends for our purposes on whether this is correct, though it is prima facie plausible. What matters is that it illustrates the conceptual structure of the claim that certain moral, political, or legal ideas might be ideological."

http://www.virginialawreview.org/sites/virginialawreview.org/files/Leiter_Book.pdf

Yes. Of course you're correct again. What a burden it must be to be prescient 24/7.

Poor folk need high taxes because they do pay taxes and need to stay poor to drive the twin hemi unemployment and food stamp engines of the progressives economy

Higher taxes = greater prosperity

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Since there are a lot of newcomers on the board, I thought I'd bump this thought experiment.

There is no need to read the replies, just answer the question based not on what you believe, but on what you'd choose to do given the situation. Lots of people think freedom is a sort of anarchy, and this freedom itself will manage the politics of living in a world of competing interests.

Lol @ don't read the replies...because the replies smoked the op like a Javelin Antitank missile busting a T90

 

[Iceweasel]

For Discussion - Thought Experiment #1

A few may be familiar with my nutshells, in them I tried to isolate the characteristics of a particular ideology. This time you decide, but remember this is a thought experiment and the premise is not debatable. (Try to stay away from slogan answers.)

That's hilarious, should be in the joke section. You're going to isolate parts of an ideology (as if you knew what the fuck you were babbling about) and demand a non slogan response, with apparently you deciding what constitutes a slogan. You're on a morphine drip, aren't you?

One day the conservative discovers there is another nation in which personal freedom trumps equality. In this place extremes of all kinds exist and government and law exist to defend or to protect power. This nation is basically considered a libertarian capitalistic republic. In this society no stipend system exists and no service is free. While the nations are isolated from each other, each feels, and their media supports their political structure as the best political structure. Movement between nations is possible as both at a base level respect personal freedom.

What does the conservative do and why? Does she stay or leave for a nation that allows more economic freedoms, more profit, and is similar to her core ideological position up to her coma? Or does she change and stay, why?

What's the conservative to do? The conservative makes breakfast, goes to work, earns an income and pays taxes so some stupid fuck can collect public money and sit behind their keyboard and totally misrepresent the capitalist system that feeds his worthless ass.

 

[Iceweasel]

I was discussing this on another site and thought I'd comment here. Ideology in America today is so deeply embedded in the minds of both the people and the politicians that you have to marvel at the power of corporate and wealth propaganda. Today your thoughts come to you in Econ 101 never to be lost or challenged. So I thought I'd step outside the frame and give my answer.

The conservative woman stays. Let me repeat that for the sake of those who cannot even get out of their ideological mind and answer. She stays. Why does she stay? She is a conservative and not an ideological American of whatever period you care to choose. People are so locked up in their ideology frames they fail to see the frame. Why would someone comfortable with life move. I should have added one stipulation in the TE but I'll leave that out for now. But I bet someone will catch it.

See an example of ideology from a Marxist perspective.

'Here is an example that will help make concrete what is at stake in the Marxian theory of ideology:'

A. Members of the “Tea Party” in the United States believe that low taxes are in the general interest (meaning, in particular, that they are in the interest of the lower - and middle - class people who make up large portions of the Tea Party).

B. Members of the “Tea Party” are mistaken: Low taxes are not in their interest, since middle - and lower - class people depend on Social Security, Medicare, public schools, public parks, and other facilities that satisfy the needs and desires of most people and that can only be funded at adequate levels if taxes are higher, especially on the wealthy.

C. Members of the “Tea Party” are mistaken about which policies are in their interest because (in part) they are mistaken about how they came to believe (A); that is, they do not realize the extent to which propaganda by the ruling classes led them to their false belief. If they realized the extent to which, for example, billionaires fund advertising and candidates to promote the belief in (A) because it serves the interest of billionaires, they would no longer be able to believe (A).

A. The TEA party is a grass roots movement not a political party. Do a few seconds of research before lecturing people.

B. You eliminated the fact that paying less money to the government means you have more money to squirrel away for your retirement, health insurance, etc. Lower taxes does not mean public parks should go away because...the people own the parks. That's right slick. And the government. Less government isn't harmful to people unless you are too stupid or lazy to make your own way. If you need to nurse off of the public tit you should move to a socialist country and get what you can. Cuba sounds like a match made in heaven for you.

C. It's hilarious to hear from some brainwashed dimwit about how others are duped. The Dims often have more money in their war chests, billionaires support left wing causes and the rich are getting richer with leftist policies in place. The enemy of the middle class isn't the TEA party, it the authoritarian leftist that turn everything they touch to shit and try to blame it on the other guy. Often by using the tactics they accuse the right of.

D. Ask the nurse to put a governor on your morphine drip, you are getting more than your fair share.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Thought experiment: imagine a society where no one ever has any drive or ambition or any desire to create or make changes or affect people for the better; they just sit quietly and await their marching orders from their leader, midcan. They all receive the exact same amount of money because that's what midcan decided they deserve. They don't work, they line up for their daily bread and drink all the rainwater they capture

Question: how soon before this civilization collapses in smoking ruins?

 

[Iceweasel]

I was going to start a thread "A liberal wakes up" but no one would believe it.

 

[whitehall]

Substitute the word progressive for conservative and you might be on to something.